Jupiter IO - upgrade or down-grade?

[unknownzzz]

Out of all the Jupiter missions IO has been the most played. Once the Disruption hype passes it will go back to being the most popular Jupiter mission due to it's efficient Meso rewards.
Jupiter IO has been efficient due to the enemy level and the small map.

The change that bothers me the most is The Map's Layout.  It feels like a college group project where the design pieces were combined at the last second.  It didn't blend.

 

Good things that remain the Same:

• Jupiter IO has is the most efficient round for Ducat farming. A 3-5 minute fissure can open a Meso relic and the player has a 87.5% chance to get another Meso relic.

Changes I am Passive about:

• The Map Size, It is larger, but not stupidly large compared to other map tiles.

Changes that tell me this map's gameplay was not tested thoroughly:

• Drop collection. I have Primed animal instinct and map open. I kill a bunch of enemies. It is impossible to find drops. There are too many barrels in tiny rooms on the map.
• The Map Size, The entrance passage and the side channels.  This is a defense map, these side channels are huge compared to the main section.  It is clearly a copy/paste from the other tile-sets. Looking at patterns, the fan-favorite defense missions are those that are compact, simple, and have steady mobs (spread evenly in time and pathing).  This map does not have this.
• Firing Lanes: From the time Mobs spawn until they can be attacked is a long wait.  All the firing lanes are blocked with objects.  Having the defense target in the bottom of bowl is not helping.  This feels like Fortuna district is taking over defense.  But both locations have different purposes. Fortuna is telling a story, Jupiter IO is made for battle.

Change I would make if I was a developer on this map:

1. Remove all barrels in main section of tile. Then item radars will work again.
2. Shrink map overall. start with long and wide hallways, we are here for the main defense section.  This is like a pillow with 3 foot tassels; it is more of a pain than it is worth.
3. Remove small rooms on lower layers (or at least remove their doors). Doors are there to open and give the player the whole view at once.  A small room is not something to hide.
4. Open fire lanes/view by removing unnecessary boxes and cabinets. If the player cannot see the mobs until they are attacking the target the map, it is too cluttered.

 

Jupiter IO was my favorite map.  It was simple, efficient, steady, and calm. A map for new players to develop, test new weapons and frames.  A place for experienced players to Farm Ducats.  This created the single most popular mission in which warframe for knowledge to transfer from the veterans to the inexperienced.

 

~ unknownzzz.
I will still Banshee the Ducats out of the new Jupiter IO, But will never be able to collect mob drops there again.
(forgive any spelling mistakes, if you write them below I will correct them)

----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE:

(Made this post with some comment replies in the thread, keeping this main post pure)

Jupiter IO has since been changed.

• The long side halls at the start and on the sides have been removed and the elevator has been added back.
• There are less barrels throughout the main area, but there are still too many for item radar to be useful.

New Issue:

• Corruption fail, There are too many entrances and paths to the defense target.  Corruption events only corrupt one path containing a few mobs.  This causes 5 waves to be easily completed with less than 10 reactant.
  • Solution: Reduce spawn locations or add bottlenecks/grouping to target paths.  Sedna-Hydron is a good example of balance. 
    From a developer perspective: I would remove the holes between levels to focus mobs to the ramps.  Then skinny/widen the ramp paths as needed.
  • Solution 2: Hacky developer solution: increase reactant spawn rate for this mission.

----------------------

When commenting: Make sure to take the time to view the issue at hand from multiple rank perspectives.

Example:

• New player: "I need the most efficiency to get weapons and frames or I will always be behind. Being rank 1-8 is no fun, cannot access weapons or features of the game."
• Average player:  "I get on after school/work for a few hours each week and collect what I can, I feel I am slowly making process. A relaxing game."
• High ranked player: "I have almost every weapon and frame, as an expert I want a challenge with good graphics. I don't need to farm anymore as I have plenty of ducats stored up."
  • This perspective is overbearing in the forum, but these experienced players also have enough hindsight to relate to all the stages... if they take the time.

----------------------

~ unknownzzz.
I will still Banshee the Ducats out of the new Jupiter IO, But will never be able to collect mob drops there again.
Perspective: I am rank 24 and slowly mastering all the content.  If there was no efficient path of catching up, my profile and game-play would have ended by rank 5.
(forgive any spelling mistakes, if you write them below I will correct them)

Edited May 30, 2019 by unknownzzz

[LSG501]

Tbh I've not been 'enjoying' the new Jupiter that much, it just feels 'too big and empty' (same issue as fortuna basically), almost to the point where it 'doesn't suit warframe' so it might bias my view on IO a little.  I'm hoping Jupiter's a grower...

I found the new IO almost like it's been designed to prevent us from 'farming it quickly' with frames like mesa, you have no real 'ranged view' either so it's all close up which is fine at lower levels, not so much at higher ones.  Then there's the 'getting around' to pick up the loot (Jupiter's map sizes has made me want DE to just give us all the loot at the end of a mission...) being a bit of an issue due to 'limited time' at the end of rotations.

[ldegroodt115]

18 hours ago, LSG501 said:

I found the new IO almost like it's been designed to prevent us from 'farming it quickly' with frames like mesa, you have no real 'ranged view' either so it's all close up which is fine at lower levels, not so much at higher ones.  Then there's the 'getting around' to pick up the loot (Jupiter's map sizes has made me want DE to just give us all the loot at the end of a mission...) being a bit of an issue due to 'limited time' at the end of rotations.

Yeah makes me wonder why it needed to be so much bigger. I've had enemies spawning 200-300 meters away and having to chase them down. Tinfoil hat: If DE has issues with how some frames work then they should address the frames, not what they're used on or for (in this case the map). Of course it is a lot less anger from the community to change a map size vs change a frame but then you're not addressing the the core of the matter and it's just gonna crop up somewhere else, isn't it? I guarantee if this happened to Helene or Hydron there'd be a lot more freakout.

[LSG501]

14 minutes ago, ldegroodt115 said:

Yeah makes me wonder why it needed to be so much bigger. I've had enemies spawning 200-300 meters away and having to chase them down. Tinfoil hat: If DE has issues with how some frames work then they should address the frames, not what they're used on or for (in this case the map). Of course it is a lot less anger from the community to change a map size vs change a frame but then you're not addressing the the core of the matter and it's just gonna crop up somewhere else, isn't it? I guarantee if this happened to Helene or Hydron there'd be a lot more freakout. 

Well hydron had it's complaints when they removed the upper level you could get to and then they changed the layout for better pathing too.  If it does have a major rework I'm sure it will be changed in a similar way to IO to make things 'harder to do efficiently', which seems to be a trend with this update with way they nerfed resource farming as well...

[isolatedone]

19 hours ago, unknownzzz said:

Out of all the Jupiter missions IO has been the most played. Once the Disruption hype passes it will go back to being the most popular Jupiter mission due to it's efficient Meso rewards.
Jupiter IO has been efficient due to the enemy level and the small map.

The change that bothers me the most is The Map's Layout.  It feels like a college group project where the design pieces were combined at the last second.  It didn't blend.

 

Good things that remain the Same:

• Jupiter IO has is the most efficient round for Ducat farming. A 3-5 minute fissure can open a Meso relic and the player has a 87.5% chance to get another Meso relic.

Changes I am Passive about:

• The Map Size, It is larger, but not stupidly large compared to other map tiles.

Changes that tell me this map's gameplay was not tested thoroughly:

• Drop collection. I have Primed animal instinct and map open. I kill a bunch of enemies. It is impossible to find drops. There are too many barrels in tiny rooms on the map.
• The Map Size, The entrance passage and the side channels.  This is a defense map, these side channels are huge compared to the main section.  It is clearly a copy/paste from the other tile-sets. Looking at patterns, the fan-favorite defense missions are those that are compact, simple, and have steady mobs (spread evenly in time and pathing).  This map does not have this.
• Firing Lanes: From the time Mobs spawn until they can be attacked is a long wait.  All the firing lanes are blocked with objects.  Having the defense target in the bottom of bowl is not helping.  This feels like Fortuna district is taking over defense.  But both locations have different purposes. Fortuna is telling a story, Jupiter IO is made for battle.

Change I would make if I was a developer on this map:

1. Remove all barrels in main section of tile. Then item radars will work again.
2. Shrink map overall. start with long and wide hallways, we are here for the main defense section.  This is like a pillow with 3 foot tassels; it is more of a pain than it is worth.
3. Remove small rooms on lower layers (or at least remove their doors). Doors are there to open and give the player the whole view at once.  A small room is not something to hide.
4. Open fire lanes/view by removing unnecessary boxes and cabinets. If the player cannot see the mobs until they are attacking the target the map, it is too cluttered.

 

Jupiter IO was my favorite map.  It was simple, efficient, steady, and calm. A map for new players to develop, test new weapons and frames.  A place for experienced players to Farm Ducats.  This created the single most popular mission in which warframe for knowledge to transfer from the veterans to the inexperienced.

 

~ unknownzzz.
I will still Banshee the Ducats out of the new Jupiter IO, But will never be able to collect mob drops there again.
(forgive any spelling mistakes, if you write them below I will correct them)

/facepalm

Edited May 25, 2019 by isolatedone

[OvisCaedo]

I'm really not a fan of it, but I don't imagine we're supposed to be; it seems very deliberately cluttered. Io's been a community recommended rapid relic farm spot for a long time, and I feel like this might be a very intentional change to that fact.

...Tangentially, intercept and Io had the same map before. I haven't tried seeing what jupiter's new intercept map is... But there's no reason to go seek it out, so I'll find out eventually when a sortie rolls it.

[EmberStar]

20 hours ago, unknownzzz said:

1. Remove small rooms on lower layers (or at least remove their doors). Doors are there to open and give the player the whole view at once.  A small room is not something to hide.

 

I can't really comment on the rest, but small rooms and hallways that go nowhere are part of how enemies spawn in defense maps.  The game tries very hard to spawn enemies out of player line of sight, to disguise the fact that they are in fact just spawning in.  (Anthem doesn't even try to hide it, which is what makes defense missions in that game kind of frustrating.  You can't pick a good location and defend it, because Anthem will just warp-gate enemies in directly on top of you no matter what.)

All the tiny little rooms are there as clown cars for enemies to pour out of.  The doors are there to break line of sight so that enemies have somewhere to discreetly spawn in without just popping up from thin air right where you can see them.  Although it would be nice if more Warframe AoE abilities could damage objects - rooms full of crates wouldn't be an issue if AoE powers could just smash them.  It would also help a little when searching for Ayatan statues in normal missions, and help deal with a few weird cases where crates seem to spawn inside walls or even completely outside the map.

[AugmentedJustice]

Absolute downgrade practically. the amount of objects etc and different levels just makes every wave twice as long compared to the old Io map. Even with a speedva, it's dreadfully slow. When farming relics, it's all about efficiency, and getting it done fast, that is why Io, was so popular. But now....well..it's over. not anymore. It seems like all these changes as of late is De's way of INTENTIONALLY, making everything take longer. Why? wtf knows.

Edited May 29, 2019 by AugmentedJustice

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Dunno how it currently looks, but I hear it's much bigger and less practical. Which means people will likely drop it. You can have the prettiest thing in the world, but if it isn't useful it'll still be forgotten once the novelty feel goes away.

[YazMatazO]

Because farming is so important to some people... but what about those that enjoy a gunfight? You know... like me? The new tileset is more appropriate for that. There is more cover now for both player and enemies, and the enemies do more of a blitz attack, rather than a tower defence where they are just mowed down because they are always in the open. Now you can actually be shot from several directions. 

Mesa will not have a grand time because of that 😄 . And trust me, that's a good thing. 

[EvilChaosKnight]

Yep, a big downgrade for me as well.

Not sure what sort of gunfights you can be having here because enemies have a completely safe passage until they are right upon the objective. This turns the game into a weird version of Whack-a-Mole 3D which is frustrating as hell.
In short:
- Too much clutter
- Not enough space
- What's up with this stupid trend of def objective being located as low as possible?

The only thing this design does is to push me more towards using Equinox or Saryn or anything else without LOS because shooting enemies isn't really a good option anymore.

[Loza03]

On ‎2019‎-‎05‎-‎25 at 7:44 PM, ldegroodt115 said:

If DE has issues with how some frames work then they should address the frames, not what they're used on or for (in this case the map)

No, working on what the abilities are used on is precisely what DE should do more of, even if this particular attempt at it was poorly executed. Yes, some powers would still need work to facilitate such a change, but balance isn't how powerful something is, it's how often it is that powerful. 

For example - sniper rifles in most games. How do you balance out the tremendous power of a weapon designed to one or two-shot almost anything from any range? You can either reduce that damage capability or limit the range. And you can o that two ways. You can do it by making the weapon class weaker. Or you can do it by adding in enemies that can resist or avoid sniper fire (by anti-headshot armour or by giving them flanking or stealth abilities), or limit the number and length of sight lines. The latter options are better because then it forces people who want to use a sniper to have to get more skilled at positioning or awareness, not just get punished for liking that weapon class.

Warframe is plagued by nukes not because the nukes are so strong, but because they're so strong at everything. Same for CC when that was the meta. These powers affect almost everything equally, and with equal effectiveness, in a wide area. Very few other games do stuff like that, because of precisely this problem. Mario has spiked enemies, flying enemies and Hammer Brothers limiting the effectiveness of jumps. Musou games have large environments and slow, limited movement to counteract your immense combat prowess. Monster Hunter has Monsters that move quickly limiting the effectiveness of sustained damage weapons but rewarding good use of burst damage weapons, and vice versa - more stationary, defensive monsters let well-played sustained DPS weapons keep up the pressure and outpace burst damage weapons.

Warframe needs more enemies and maps that counter player power, not to just reduce the power of the players, because it's the former that makes the game better, not just more balanced.

[Ham_Grenabe]

I like the new map vastly more than the shooting gallery of the old Io. It's less efficient, yes, but...well, we had it easymode/speedfarm basically forever, and now it's slightly less so.

I think we're all capable of handling that level of challenge. 

[Urlan]

For me so far, what I liked about the old Jupiter Defense area was the fact that despite using the same basic idea of a illogically defended kill-zone against the player; it had one defended side and had the enemies come up the hill versus being able to shoot at advantage on the player from spawn, while also being a more concise mission map. I like the look of the new Jupiter map in some respects but it doesn't seem arranged for a defensible position or for quick concise spawns. To be blunt, it has more space than the mission really uses.

[Qmiras]

People wanting to e-z farm with one button push is ridiculous. Go be a turret in simulacrum.

DE is never gonna cater directly to lazy players as they're minority. New tilesets are beautiful and fun and should be appreciated for that.

Efficiency is a player problem, small tilesets only serve as farm machines for spammers. And that's not fun....

[Fallen77]

Yall for real ?

What are you even crying about ? That the brand new map has not been designed to be a mindless lootcave ? What a surprise right...

You could complain about the relic UI, but that would be a legitimate and helpfull claim, we can't have those around right ?

[EvilChaosKnight]

Ah, the strawmen. Never get old, do they?
- And of course it has nothing to do with map being overloaded with unnecessary clutter.
- Or enemies only being open to your fire once they are basically on top of the objective.
- Or how we went from the high ground *insert Obi-Wan here* with a decent overview of the battlefield to yet another cramped clustertruck where Enemy Radar is the only saving grace. Limit sniper power? Really now? The weapons which are only ever useful in Dolan hunts in the first place. You can't be serious.
- Or how it feels like the map was designed to make fighting enemies as frustrating and as unfun as possible.
- But, maybe, it was just made to look pretty? But then I'd have to note how choosing style over substance is byitself a pretty stupid idea in game design. Unless your whole game is designed to be a specific form of modern art with a message, like the walking sims and whatnot, functionality should always be chosen over looks.

[SneakyErvin]

While efficiency may have taken a slight punch to the gut the visuals and setting of it all got a major improvement. I'm not sure if I should dislike it for the efficiency downgrade or love it for the visual improvement. I guess I'll stick to the middle where I take the good with the bad and enjoy it as much as I can.

Many of the Jupiter maps now just feel so much more realistic and have a sense of logic behind them. You can walk through them and actually get a sense of why the corpus designed them that way.

[Fallen77]

il y a 27 minutes, EvilChaosKnight a dit :

Ah, the strawmen. Never get old, do they?
- And of course it has nothing to do with map being overloaded with unnecessary clutter.
- Or enemies only being open to your fire once they are basically on top of the objective.
- Or how we went from the high ground *insert Obi-Wan here* with a decent overview of the battlefield to yet another cramped clustertruck where Enemy Radar is the only saving grace. Limit sniper power? Really now? The weapons which are only ever useful in Dolan hunts in the first place. You can't be serious.
- Or how it feels like the map was designed to make fighting enemies as frustrating and as unfun as possible.
- But, maybe, it was just made to look pretty? But then I'd have to note how choosing style over substance is byitself a pretty stupid idea in game design. Unless your whole game is designed to be a specific form of modern art with a message, like the walking sims and whatnot, functionality should always be chosen over looks.

How are the mobs unfun on this map ? Because you can't kill them before they can get a shot out ? 

Mobs ganging on the objectiv by surprise ? So what ? Is it too hard for you ? How are relic farm setups (nova/equinox/else) theatened by that ? How is anyone threatened by that ?

It's a fun map where you have to walk around a bit to kill mobs.

Do you want a blank room where mobs spawn only in front of you ?

Stop crying for a lootcave, play the game, be a ninja, jump around, or go play a clicker.

When life puts an obstacle in your way, you walkaround, you don't ask god to remove it for you

[(XBOX)BULLS 0N PAR4DE]

1 hour ago, Fallen77 said:

Yall for real ?

What are you even crying about ? That the brand new map has not been designed to be a mindless lootcave ? What a surprise right...

You could complain about the relic UI, but that would be a legitimate and helpfull claim, we can't have those around right ?

How does the kool-aid taste mate. This game is about farming mostly. Don't act like it isn't. 

 Oh just because people don't see your point or you don't agree with theirs doesn't mean you can tell them to quit crying.

[EvilChaosKnight]

3 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

When life puts an obstacle in your way, you walkaround, you don't ask god to remove it for you

When life puts an obstacle in my way, I either go over/around it or break it. Depends.
You, on the other hand, suggest I should just bend over, take it and try to enjoy the process. Sorry, mate, but you are the one going "passive" here.

[Guest]

IMO, it's a downgrade, not only in terms of farming efficiency, but in gameplay. Too many objects disrupting LoS with the enemies. Also, the enemies spawning in the lower levels take too long to reach the target (they have to climb 2 boxes).

I think there should be a rework of defenses in general. Survivals take 5 minutes per rotation, no matter what. Interception might take 4~5 minutes depending on how you can keep the towers from being captured. However, defense might take even 3 minutes if you have a nuker and/or a speedva, or 5~8 minutes if you don't have any of these in your squad.

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Guest
Typo edit

[Oreades]

Hmm haven't really looked at the new IO, honestly I continually forget IO exists in general, outside of the occasional "Need to farm Relics, UGHhhhhhh~". 

So I'll probably eventually get around to seeing what they've done to IO but if it makes the defense take any longer than it did before...... I'm prolly not gonna enjoy it one bit. 

[3rdpig]

While to some this game is about farming, to me it's about fun. While the new IO map does slow down the process of getting Meso relics, getting them is more fun...at least for me. Farming on IO was something I hated and only did as often as I absolutely had to. Now it's something I toss in the mix now and again because it's fun.

[SneakyErvin]

43 minutes ago, Agropeu said:

IMO, it's a downgrade, not only in terms of farming efficiency, but in gameplay. Too many objects disrupting LoS with the enemies. Also, the enemies spawning in the lower levels take too long to reach the target (they have to climb 2 boxes).

I think there should be a rework of defenses in general. Survivals take 5 minutes per rotation, no matter what. Interception might take 4~5 minutes depending on how you can keep the towers from being captured. However, defense might take even 3 minutes if you have a nuker and/or a speedva, or 5~8 minutes if you don't have any of these in your squad.

Most of those things are player issues though and not something they should have to design around. The mobs spawning below and taking time to reach the objective arent really issues, unless of course you are in a full group with people expecting to leech or level an ill-suited frame in defense. I mean, how often does it happen that there isnt a Saryn, Enox or Volt in a defense run?

We have the tools to make it go fast, so why not just use those tools that work just as good on the new Io as it did on the old?