Essential Mods for Weapons

[Huanthus]

On last devstream Scott mentioned that he had a hard time dealing with Mandatory mods and how he had tried several iterations to no avail, that topic has been on my mind for a while now and it seems fitting to throw in a suggestion on how to deal with it and hopefully the community and the devs will notice it and take it into consideration.

Now lets analyze the current state of moding in the game and the problems it has:

1. Its progression  is tied to RNG but Mod Rarity not always is that important i.e. Point Strike will always be better than Critical Delay but PS is really common and CD is Rare, but everyone will pick PS over CD.

2. The relation of Rarity vs Power on some mods is messed up, lets look again the values of PS and CD for comparison.

3. There is a set path where you cant stray too far off and  the alternatives are often not worth it i.e. Slotting in all Vigilante  on a Primary vs Only Slotting Vig. Armaments and a bunch of damage based mods.

4. All the bonuses (except certain weapon augments) are Multiplicative and if you dont have that high of  a base stat, its not as useful on higher level so meta weapons with high damage are Kings and Queens.

5. Trying to solve Point 4 would mean to revisit all said weapons that have low base stats, it has been done, but there could be other alternatives to make viable older or lower mastery weapon on higher level content, 

6. The cost of each Mandatory Mod goes averags between 9 and 15 (Riven Mods should not be considered mandatory, they are a cool addition but they are too tied to RNG)

7. There are only 8 Mod Slots which at least 3 of those are taken up by mandatory mods.

8. There are mods that even when you get them at low level are not that useful,lets say you got serration and Piercing shot at level 5 Serration Bonus is 105% of all damage on the weapon, and costs about 10 capacity, and max rank  Piercing Shot at rank 5 costs 9 capacity and its only 30% of base Puncture Damage (Multiplicative)

9. The power curve when leveling a new acoount is steep, I made one to help out a couple friends that started playing and we started struggling at uranus and when got to sedna were relying more on warframe abilites and the infinite scalling of  melee to get by, also if you are a new player with no prior knowledge  youd probably spend your endo and credits on things that will not help you that much.

I could list more and more things  that hinder the current modding system, but lets stop and summarize what needs to change:

1. A clearer progression and power rewards for leveling and undestanding the system.

2. A way to Slot in other things than mandatory Mods.

3. An improvement on entry level mods so they can be used by newer and veteran players alike.

4. A way to make older weapons more relevant on higher level.

Taking  all these into consideration i would suggest the following:

1. The Addition of 3 "Essential Slots" for all weapons, these slots will be unlocked every 10  base capacity and have 90% Capacity Cost Reduction, so at level 30 you get all of them, also every 10 levels there are bonuses applied on according Rarity level:

At level 20 common mods on essential get a "Silver upgrade" that gives 33.3% more stats on the mod and maybe a visual indicator of the bonus on the screen

At level 30 uncommon mods get an "Gold upgrade" that gives  33.3% more stats on uncommon and common mods

So common mods have a 66.6% bonus at level 30, uncommon get 33.3%, Rare ones only get the Capacity Cost Reduction, this is to balance the usage of the new slots, so people dont choose to put just the high cost ones into their builds.

1.1 Legendary quality mods whould not be left out since they are variants of other mods so depending on the original rarity of the variant they could get  a 25% bonus

2. Change all mods that provide a 50% and lower multiplicative bonus into Additive Bonus, this would open up a lot of possibilites for modding and kind of revive  a lot of weapons without needing a Godly Riven mod.

2.1 As an exception to the last rule, the uncommon secondary mods: Razor Shot, Concussion Rounds and No Return should be "nerfed" in order to fit this, 50 base IPS damage would suffice and make them fit, also to balance the "nerf" the variants of these for primary and Shotgun could get a buff, lets say 40 base IPS damage on a weapon.

Finally to illustrate how these changes would benefit weapons that are cool but out of the META, lets take a look to an old faithful, the Soma:

The Setting:

1. Lets Assume that you are a new player that has  just leveled up to lvl 30 your Soma.

2. you now have 3 Essential Slots open for use.

So, when you Slot in on the first one a lvl 5 Point Strike that costs 9 capacity so with a 90% reduction it would consume 0.9 Mod Capacity, also since its a lvl 30 weapon and a common mod it would get  a bonus of 66.6%, hence instead of the 150% Critical Hit Chance you get 249.9 Critical Hit Chance (YAY you have been rewarded by  leveling a weapon other than having more capacity!)

Now you still have 29 Mod Capacity points!

Then you slot in a lvl 5 Sawtooth Clip on the Second one, hence your Mod capacity goes down by 1 and you get 40*1.66 = 66.6, 67 extra Base Slash Damage! so 6+67 your Soma does 74 Slash Damage so you wont have to suffer that much on higher levels! and will be viable on really high missions lvl 100+ just because it has  a good critical hit  and a decent  base damage so you can play around with other Mod combinations of your liking!

Lastly  since you did not have that much endo nor credits since you started up you slot in a lvl 5 Serration, YAY +105% more damage  and you still have 27 mod capacity left  to add Elemental Damage, or multishot or status chance mods or Silencer mods, or magazine size and reload  speed mods, etc.

Hope this illustrated the intent of these crazy suggestions of mine, also if you are a veteran that know  the current modding system you already know the implications of these changes and how your favorite but  non meta weapons can be benefited, I know this will benefit  the META weapons too but i firmly believe that this would provide a healthy modding balance in the game.

Looking forward any well argumented criticism on this post and any suggestions

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Huanthus

[ShaKaL95]

On 2019-05-25 at 6:59 PM, Huanthus said:

1. Its progression  is tied to RNG but Mod Rarity not always is that important i.e. Point Strike will always be better than Critical Delay but PS is really common and CD is Rare, but everyone will pick PS over CD.

That is because PS is the Bread and butter for crit build rifles,thus,it is common and found everywhere,and its stats are made to have relative impact on the weapons,CD however,is optional to boost it even more,but not by much,and it is found only in orokin vaults,equipping it however,brings a tradeoff in firerate for added crit chance. You are right though, rarity doesn't matter most of the time,eg. Vital Sense is rare yet it drops often,such as other mods.

[ShortCat]

On 2019-05-25 at 5:59 PM, Huanthus said:

4. A way to make older weapons more relevant on higher level.

Which weapons are those? Does Braton fall into this category? Can you name some specific examples.

On 2019-05-25 at 5:59 PM, Huanthus said:

1. The Addition of 3 "Essential Slots" for all weapons

This is only a band-aid and completely undermines the spirit of a modding system. With the example you provide with Some, you suggest a massive power creep.

On 2019-05-25 at 5:59 PM, Huanthus said:

2. Change all mods that provide a 50% and lower multiplicative bonus into Additive Bonus, this would open up a lot of possibilites for modding and kind of revive  a lot of weapons without needing a Godly Riven mod.

All it does is change the mandatory status/crit mod depending on weapon. I cannot see how this change would increase build or playstyle diversity.

On 2019-05-25 at 5:59 PM, Huanthus said:

I know this will benefit  the META weapons too but i firmly believe that this would provide a healthy modding balance in the game.

No, it will not, becasue all your suggestions are focused on damage stacking, which the crux with modding right now.

 

All that said, if your main point was to introduce more power, you have achieved it. If you want to increase build diversity, which I would welcome, that is not the way.

[Huanthus]

On 2019-05-27 at 5:14 AM, ShortCat said:

If you want to increase build diversity, which I would welcome, that is not the way.

As i said, I'm open to suggestions, how would you increase build diversity, IMO  diversity is killed by the need to  slot in  mandatory mods and mod capacity overall, unless you add more mod slots or mod capacity how would you solve the problem without eliminating already created mods?

 

On 2019-05-27 at 5:14 AM, ShortCat said:

Which weapons are those? Does Braton fall into this category? Can you name some specific examples.

Soma was one of them, its a cool and still useful weapon but her low base damage hurts her a lot  just because there are weapons that can nuke entire rooms making, other examples would be the mighty kraken  and the non variant boltor and  gorgon to name a few, all weapons ingame can work at some degree on any level but they need extensive use of forma and even so they are subpar in terms of performance even with godly rivens.

 

On 2019-05-27 at 5:14 AM, ShortCat said:

This is only a band-aid and completely undermines the spirit of a modding system. With the example you provide with Some, you suggest a massive power creep.

Could you please define the concept of "spirit of a modding system" for me?, regarding the power creep, it always will exist in games like this and there are cool weapons that could benefit just from that bandaid  as you call it, think about the arca plasmor, it has a decent crit for a shotgun and decent status chance but if you dont  commit to one of those the result is subpar and even if you have a riven its disposition aint that high so the potential of the weapon takes a hit just because you need to choose crit or status.

Besides DE has previously stated that they are not as eager to introduce new mods because builds are already so tight.Amalgams seem to be  a breath of fresh air on this matter but not all of them will provide a benefit that will make people choose them over the normal variants, now think it you could use Amalgam Serration and not have a severe falloff in damage, would you use it or not?

[TeaHawk]

2 hours ago, Huanthus said:

As i said, I'm open to suggestions, how would you increase build diversity, IMO  diversity is killed by the need to  slot in  mandatory mods and mod capacity overall, unless you add more mod slots or mod capacity how would you solve the problem without eliminating already created mods?

By adding a new slot you will not really boost variety. Because simply there are mods better than the others in this game. And naturally you would not waste your 3 brand new slots for things like max ammo capacity.

However, I really-really would like to see an exilus slot added to all weapons, where you could put mods like "Argon Scope" and "Bladed rounds". For most of my builds it lacks to obtain the pure perfection.

[Huanthus]

1 hour ago, TeaHawk said:

By adding a new slot you will not really boost variety. Because simply there are mods better than the others in this game. And naturally you would not waste your 3 brand new slots for things like max ammo capacity.

However, I really-really would like to see an exilus slot added to all weapons, where you could put mods like "Argon Scope" and "Bladed rounds". For most of my builds it lacks to obtain the pure perfection.

As i said these slots are for essential mods or how DE calls them "Mandatory" mods, so why 1 exilus  for all the weapons is objectively  better than 3 slots tied to progression and weapon level and how is it any different than my suggestion? I mean we agree that we need more slots for mods dont we? And what about the mod capacity problem? I mean in order to effectiveely use said exilus slot youd probable have to forma weapons a bunch like lets say 3-4 formas per weapon 🤔

[TeaHawk]

28 minutes ago, Huanthus said:

As i said these slots are for essential mods or how DE calls them "Mandatory" mods, so why 1 exilus  for all the weapons is objectively  better than 3 slots tied to progression and weapon level and how is it any different than my suggestion?

I'm not saying, that it is objectively better. It is something what I honestly would prefer instead of a drastic change of the whole system that would probably tweak hundreds of builds and dramatically affect power-level overall.
What is different? Exilus slot will accept only exilus mods, which would be a cherry on the cake of your build. For instance I'm talking about all these mods you never dare to put in, but would like to. I really like sniping in this game (I know it's odd), and I always have this bladed rounds/argon scope/harkonar scope trillema. Adding a dedicated slot would help me a lot.
 

28 minutes ago, Huanthus said:

And what about the mod capacity problem?

It's not a problem to me. I'm willing to put 8 formas if I really like the weapon. Several guns I use have at least 4 formas installed. Should I put another two — not a problem.
 

28 minutes ago, Huanthus said:

in order to effectiveely use said exilus slot youd probable have to forma weapons a bunch like lets say 3-4 formas per weapon 🤔

Sure. So what? Yes, it's kinda super grindy. I assume that. But if you want perfection — you should pay for it.

Edited May 29, 2019 by TeaHawk

[Huanthus]

7 hours ago, TeaHawk said:

Sure. So what? Yes, it's kinda super grindy. I assume that. But if you want perfection — you should pay for it.

I can agree with that, even my suggestion would need formas to work on higher levels

 

On 2019-05-27 at 1:57 AM, ShaKaL95 said:

That is because PS is the Bread and butter for crit build rifles,thus,it is common and found everywhere,and its stats are made to have relative impact on the weapons,CD however,is optional to boost it even more,but not by much,and it is found only in orokin vaults,equipping it however,brings a tradeoff in firerate for added crit chance. You are right though, rarity doesn't matter most of the time,eg. Vital Sense is rare yet it drops often,such as other mods.

It is, but it is not worthwhile, take as an example the buff they gave to Magnum force, the drawbacks dont payoff too much you get 48% extra multiplicative crit and 30% less Firerate, which is a net DPS loss, its the same as the uncommon status chance mods if you want to bump up your status chance they are not enough, I've  a couple topics on those mods asking for  a buff, because again, its not worthwhile normally you end up with 99.9% and that 0.1% sometimes is a *@##$ 😂

[SaltyWafflesPD]

Adding slots would absolutely increase diversity, or at least make more weapons viable. Especially when it comes to "essential mods". Frankly, I can't think of a single weapon where you don't put the Serration-type mod on it. Then comes the multishot mod. That's two mod slots that are always, always taken by the same mods, every time.

The problem is that a lot of mods either don't substantially change how the gun behaves in a beneficial way or aren't good enough to take the place of the mods that provide the essentials that a weapon needs--usually damage, crit chance, and crit damage. While some weapons do well when built for status, critical chance and critical damage are multiplicative increases in damage. And since higher level enemies are always "more health, more armor", you need to do more damage to compensate.

[niutp]

Powercreep, with this it just gives more *stat*. Straight up. Every weapon is now scaled up, but now bigger gap between (with essential mods),it makes the good weapons even stronger. It may be boring/too obvious in endgame, but remember, newbies do not have maxed mods. Your mods become stronger the later you progress. So with this, later on it becomes much more stronger, and still helps a tiny bit for low ranked new player.

But now even the weakest weapons are capable everywhere, and we already one-shot the majority of enemies. It pushes everything up, bigger number, bigger level, bigger armour. And armour scaling is broken after a certain level. They have to limit the player somehow, so the game doesn't become too easy and powercreep is on pair with the enemies.

[AKTKWNG]

In my opinion, the most absolute basic and easy thing that can be done is to add basic damage bonuses to every single weapon in the game, and then remove basic damage mods altogether. I'm talking serration, point blank, hornet strike and pressure point. Every weapon build in the game is going to have these mods, so just buff the base damage of every single weapon in the game to an amount corresponding to its respective damage mod. Once that's done, the slot that would have been reserved for serration anyway can now be converted into a weapon exilus slot. Take all our current weapon utility mods and change them into exilus mods. Now, everybody has incentive to use non-dps mods in their builds, and overall weapon damage in the game remains unchanged. Unless you're Chroma, but honestly it's not like Chroma is lacking in weapon damage anyways.

Another way could be to introduce dual-stat mods that combine a dps stat with a utility stat. We can already see from the popularity of amalgam serration that people are willing to give up part of a mandatory mod for utility, so why not double down on this? For example, you would never replace +150% crit chance from point strike for +55% reload speed from primed fast hands, but if there were a +120% crit chance/+30% reload speed mod, that is at least a conversation worth having.

Finally, I don't think that having additive stat mods as the standard is good for the game. Just look at what happened with maiming strike, which is a conditional additive 90% crit chance mod. Basically, for weapons that could abuse maiming strike with long range spins, crit chance no longer mattered. If your base crit chance was 10%, now it's 100%. If it was 30%, now it's 120%. You could no longer have a niche as a crit chance-focused whip, because every whip is crit chance-focused. 

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

I had a similar idea, but it was just one slot...base damage slot and treat it like an eximus.  We have 3 mods for base primary weapon damage.  While it can be argued that 3 might be pushing it, there's always one slot taken by a base damage mod...it makes it mandatory and annoying for build diversity.

I would say "start there" and then see what that does to alleviate the problem.  But honestly, all it would do for most of my builds is make it so I can spec for Primed Bane AND Heavy Caliber.  But at least it's a start.

 

Or you go the other direction and add a flavor slot for anything but dps increase.  So no crit, elemental, or damage mods.  Speed trigger/shred?  Not sure.  I'd think no.  

[Huanthus]

On 2019-05-30 at 4:32 AM, SaltyWafflesPD said:

The problem is that a lot of mods either don't substantially change how the gun behaves in a beneficial way or aren't good enough to take the place of the mods that provide the essentials that a weapon needs--usually damage, crit chance, and crit damage. While some weapons do well when built for status, critical chance and critical damage are multiplicative increases in damage. And since higher level enemies are always "more health, more armor", you need to do more damage to compensate.

Or cause statuses that debuff that armor or health right? thats the reason I´m advocating for additive mods there are mods that provide a 15% multiplicative bonus for status chance... that is ridiculus at least bump it up to 90% if you want us to spend 1 mod slot and 9 capacity on it right? but if you have a 15% base + 15% additive you just need  4 dual elemental/status mods to get  to 100% and make it a viable status based weapon, or an hybrid one  if you want that, that is the kind of diversity i´d like to see in the modding system.

On 2019-05-30 at 6:25 AM, AKTKWNG said:

In my opinion, the most absolute basic and easy thing that can be done is to add basic damage bonuses to every single weapon in the game, and then remove basic damage mods altogether. I'm talking serration, point blank, hornet strike and pressure point. Every weapon build in the game is going to have these mods, so just buff the base damage of every single weapon in the game to an amount corresponding to its respective damage mod. Once that's done, the slot that would have been reserved for serration anyway can now be converted into a weapon exilus slot. Take all our current weapon utility mods and change them into exilus mods. Now, everybody has incentive to use non-dps mods in their builds, and overall weapon damage in the game remains unchanged. Unless you're Chroma, but honestly it's not like Chroma is lacking in weapon damage anyways.

That is a good idea, but then not just serration should be eliminated there are a IPS trash mods that only provide a multiplicative value increase on their respective IPS value, but i dont think DE would ever do that.... i mean the Loot is  "the most important part" in a looter shooter so youd end up eliminating a bunch of loot from the game. I like the idea of the Exilus slot for non dps mods though.

 

On 2019-05-30 at 6:25 AM, AKTKWNG said:

Finally, I don't think that having additive stat mods as the standard is good for the game. Just look at what happened with maiming strike, which is a conditional additive 90% crit chance mod. Basically, for weapons that could abuse maiming strike with long range spins, crit chance no longer mattered. If your base crit chance was 10%, now it's 100%. If it was 30%, now it's 120%. You could no longer have a niche as a crit chance-focused whip, because every whip is crit chance-focused. 

I could not agree more with you! 90% base crit chance is nuts and its too exploitable which is why i only said that additive value should be on mods that are below 50%, just to give them a fighting chance against the prefered multiplicative mods, that would mean that  some of those mods should get their values adjusted  I.E. Critical Delay 48% base crit would be cool but nuts given that you could  combine it  with Point strike  and the "Essential Slot" bonus to go over 9000! so how about  halving it? its still an usefull value and synergizes well with your builds without breaking the game.... and then there are the uncommon status effects mods, as i said earlier they irk me just because they are underwhelming, there is no choice, if you want status you got to get hybrid stat/elemental mods and thats it i want to be able to choose !!!

 

On 2019-05-30 at 6:29 AM, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

Or you go the other direction and add a flavor slot for anything but dps increase.  So no crit, elemental, or damage mods.  Speed trigger/shred?  Not sure.  I'd think no.  

there are weapons that would appreciate it... Arca Plasmor and her 4 secs reload  would joyfully cry it you sloted reload speed mod on her... but then even if you have the slot there is the capacity problem, and it could be solved with  formas.... but just imagine having to forma 6 times every single weapon in the game to use a flavor slot, i understand that Warframe is a repetitive game but thats just pushing it!

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

1 hour ago, Huanthus said:

there are weapons that would appreciate it... Arca Plasmor and her 4 secs reload  would joyfully cry it you sloted reload speed mod on her... but then even if you have the slot there is the capacity problem, and it could be solved with  formas.... but just imagine having to forma 6 times every single weapon in the game to use a flavor slot, i understand that Warframe is a repetitive game but thats just pushing it!

6 formas isn't too much worse than the 4 that are pretty much mandatory without a riven and 5 if with a riven.  

Or, Catalysts provide far more cap space.

[Huanthus]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

6 formas isn't too much worse than the 4 that are pretty much mandatory without a riven and 5 if with a riven.  

Or, Catalysts provide far more cap space.

I'm already assuming that a Catalyst is already installed in the weapon, still my point stands this provides also a solution to burnout  of having to forma things too much

[Thrymm]

On 2019-05-27 at 5:14 AM, ShortCat said:

All it does is change the mandatory status/crit mod depending on weapon. I cannot see how this change would increase build or playstyle diversity.

 

Actually, additive modding on the smaller additions would increase build diversity pretty well.

Pointing at the base puncture mods probably isn't the place to look simply because puncture sucks anyway and rectifying that is a different story entirely.  The similar slash mod, however, makes an interesting point, due to the opposite effect.  Adding 60% of your weapons base damage to slash would create some interesting and powerful status weapons.

Instead, look at mods like "Stunning Speed" or "Sure Shot".  These are status chance mods, offering 10% and 15% status chance respectively.  The addition to your weapon is useless.  It's just plain junk, adding these multiplicatively will never, in any circumstance, yield a potential.  There is zero chance that you'll use these for anything.

Now consider them as additive.  Perhaps you're wishing your Pyrana Prime could be a true status style shotgun, for example.  With its base 12% status, this weapon does not achieve a proper status chance to do so with shotgun mechanics.  If you could put a 15% additive Sure Shot on it, it would now have 27% status before multiplicatives, not enough to hit 100% natural with just four dual mods, but enough to do so with a riven. 

That puts the weapon in a position in which you'd be able to create one of the very best status weapons in the game, but you'd have to heavily sacrifice damage compared to the crit or hybrid builds you can put on it today.  A decision would have to be made, and options would be available.

The best part of this approach is the relative trade off it brings.  Things like this create potentially worthwhile situations that don't currently exist, and they do so at the heavy cost of a mod slot, which helps keep them from causing a power creep that I think most of us would find undesirable(the majority of top performing weapons simply wouldn't benefit from additive mods existing).

[Huanthus]

2 hours ago, Thrymm said:

Actually, additive modding on the smaller additions would increase build diversity pretty well.

Pointing at the base puncture mods probably isn't the place to look simply because puncture sucks anyway and rectifying that is a different story entirely.  The similar slash mod, however, makes an interesting point, due to the opposite effect.  Adding 60% of your weapons base damage to slash would create some interesting and powerful status weapons.

Instead, look at mods like "Stunning Speed" or "Sure Shot".  These are status chance mods, offering 10% and 15% status chance respectively.  The addition to your weapon is useless.  It's just plain junk, adding these multiplicatively will never, in any circumstance, yield a potential.  There is zero chance that you'll use these for anything.

Now consider them as additive.  Perhaps you're wishing your Pyrana Prime could be a true status style shotgun, for example.  With its base 12% status, this weapon does not achieve a proper status chance to do so with shotgun mechanics.  If you could put a 15% additive Sure Shot on it, it would now have 27% status before multiplicatives, not enough to hit 100% natural with just four dual mods, but enough to do so with a riven. 

That puts the weapon in a position in which you'd be able to create one of the very best status weapons in the game, but you'd have to heavily sacrifice damage compared to the crit or hybrid builds you can put on it today.  A decision would have to be made, and options would be available.

The best part of this approach is the relative trade off it brings.  Things like this create potentially worthwhile situations that don't currently exist, and they do so at the heavy cost of a mod slot, which helps keep them from causing a power creep that I think most of us would find undesirable(the majority of top performing weapons simply wouldn't benefit from additive mods existing).

Also this also opens the possibility  of the creation of new mods, and if this was implemented and actually works would be a template on how to improve  Warframe modding

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

Really "Mandatory Mods" are simply a symptom of a bigger problem: Enemy scaling is far too dramatic.

If you take a weapon built to push through sorties to pretty much any node before Pluto and you will one-shot everything. The majority of enemies at the start of the game will rarely have over 300 EH (Effective Heath), but almost anything past level 30 will have well over 3000 EH. Get to level 100 and even the common peons will be pushing past 90,000 EH. Naturally the only way to combat such a scale is to dramatically scale up weapons to compete. A gun that does 50 damage a shot? Cram as many damage and status mods as you can so you can dish out 5000 damage a shot.

We become gods and then complain that we no longer bleed.

Ideally there should be a system where enemies have a similar overall time-to-kill regardless of level, so long the player's items are of similar or higher level. That way players will build more for consistent DPS and better feel rather than raw damage. "Mandatory Mods" could still exist in this model, but in a heavily nerfed form that may only prove situationally better rather than a universal upgrade.

Really there is no easy fix. DE can patch things here and there, but the only way they will ever see an end to these debates is to totally overhaul the scaling systems.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

I kinda feel like they need to get rid of the "damage" mod by making everything scale off the base damage of the gun, primed variants too.

I know power creep has been creeping a long time and you'd really have to re-balance the damage system going all the way up, but having to dedicate steadily more and more mods just to maintain the ability of the weapon to inflict damage is not great...

Right now.......... A solid I don't know 60% of the mods might as well not exist. Channeling is irrelevant so anything that boosts channeling is irrelevant, a lot of mods that make weapons do something special are pointless, like concealed explosives, a mod that literally does what sonicor does out of the box except does self damage while not inflicting damage past level 50 or so...  Seriously thrown weapons are in the worst state of any weapon /type/ in this game and CE could completely fix that but "This mod has to be bad even though it does something another.............. Sure there are weapons individually that are good...but as a whole there are just so many better options. Mostly if you're going with thrown weapons you might as well use staticor and be done with it. I mean it's technically a "thrown" weapon but you could miss a target by a mile and still obliterate them... Making it kinda my favorite weapon for brawling, you know, boxing gloves, claws, grappling mitts, it lets you get your inner Z fighter going with your punching things then screaming for an hour and a half and then unleashing your kamehameha 

[garbenzine]

I'd like to see a greater range of dual-stats, as a way of mixing and matching additional effects without forcing everyone to go cold turkey on their DPS.  Like now we have Chilling Reload for cold+reload, but it's only for shotguns.  I'm all for the full gamut of element+weapon QoL combos for all weapon types, since most of the time the QoL mods have to go pound sand to make room for damage and god knows some weapons would feel a lot better to use with those bonuses.  I'd also like to see a class of elemental mods that have a "doesn't combine with other elemental damage" effect, so that you can get base element damage types alongside secondaries they'd otherwise combine into.  Something else that could be cool would be an exilus mod that removes the movement speed penalty while shooting.

[George_PPS]

On 2019-05-29 at 8:12 AM, TeaHawk said:

By adding a new slot you will not really boost variety. Because simply there are mods better than the others in this game. And naturally you would not waste your 3 brand new slots for things like max ammo capacity.

However, I really-really would like to see an exilus slot added to all weapons, where you could put mods like "Argon Scope" and "Bladed rounds". For most of my builds it lacks to obtain the pure perfection.

Exiled slots for weapons and reclassify some conditional Mods like Hydraulic Crosshairs and Argon Scope into this new category is an amazing idea. It will open up a new level of modding based on each weapon’s strength. 

[ShortCat]

On 2019-05-29 at 2:18 PM, Huanthus said:

As i said, I'm open to suggestions, how would you increase build diversity, IMO  diversity is killed by the need to  slot in  mandatory mods and mod capacity overall, unless you add more mod slots or mod capacity how would you solve the problem without eliminating already created mods?

In my opinion, to reach build diversity we need to go away from simple stat stacking first. Situations where you slot 4 elemental mods to create one elemental combo would be an example. It could be a combination of mods with permanent boni as well as mods, which can be triggered with certain conditions but grant larger bonus - more power should not come for free. Even Serration can work, just add a negative effect to it, kinda like Heavy Calliber, but with different drawbacks. At the same time weapons should be limited to only one base damage mod. In this case DE can add new Serration v.XX, overall power level will remain the same, it will create new Endo and Creddit sinks and create true linear progression. Depending on your personal preferences or on the weapon you are using, you had the option to choose a different mod. 

On 2019-05-29 at 2:18 PM, Huanthus said:

Soma was one of them, its a cool and still useful weapon but her low base damage hurts her a lot  just because there are weapons that can nuke entire rooms making, other examples would be the mighty kraken  and the non variant boltor and  gorgon to name a few, all weapons ingame can work at some degree on any level but they need extensive use of forma and even so they are subpar in terms of performance even with godly rivens.

Soma is a decent weapon, so are Boltor upgrades, especially Tellos version. Prisma Gorgon is in fact really strong. Every weapon you mentioned will work in any content in the game. Older weapons become relevant with Prime, Vandal, Wraith or whtever versions. Even meme Kraken could get a Wraith version and shake up the landscape. As a response to your initial suggestion to buff older weapons: No.

On 2019-05-29 at 2:18 PM, Huanthus said:

Could you please define the concept of "spirit of a modding system" for me?

Weapons should not have their builds set in stone, but align to the player. Warframe kinda achieves it with Frames. You also want to increase diversity, but your suggestion cannot reach this goal, because it just replaces some mods, while the road remains the same - stack crit/status, incrase Slash or base damage, add some elements. As long as modding is about stat stacking, there won't be diversity.

 

On 2019-06-01 at 6:46 PM, Thrymm said:

Actually, additive modding on the smaller additions would increase build diversity pretty well.

Additive mods will increasenumber of meta weapons, but not build diversity itself. If a weapon is not used due to its bad base status chance and multiplicative mods cannot help in this regard, additive mods will do the job. But in the end you did not create new builds, you just replaced one status mod with the other one. You are still just stacking crit and/or status.

[Huanthus]

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

In my opinion, to reach build diversity we need to go away from simple stat stacking first. Situations where you slot 4 elemental mods to create one elemental combo would be an example. It could be a combination of mods with permanent boni as well as mods, which can be triggered with certain conditions but grant larger bonus - more power should not come for free. Even Serration can work, just add a negative effect to it, kinda like Heavy Calliber, but with different drawbacks. At the same time weapons should be limited to only one base damage mod. In this case DE can add new Serration v.XX, overall power level will remain the same, it will create new Endo and Creddit sinks and create true linear progression. Depending on your personal preferences or on the weapon you are using, you had the option to choose a different mod. 

I like that, but still there is the problem of capacity and  slots even if you have  a trade off to get more power you'd need  some kind of mandatory mods, i mean you will always try to play to your strengths having these slots may provide the leeway to create or rework existing mods so they can have variants  as you describe.

 

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Weapons should not have their builds set in stone, but align to the player. Warframe kinda achieves it with Frames. You also want to increase diversity, but your suggestion cannot reach this goal, because it just replaces some mods, while the road remains the same - stack crit/status, incrase Slash or base damage, add some elements. As long as modding is about stat stacking, there won't be diversity.

 

There could be more diversity right now but the mods that have trade off's in game are not as effective as the original variants which is why I wanted to have additive mods, or at least buff the trade off ones so we can use them multiplicative.

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Additive mods will increasenumber of meta weapons, but not build diversity itself. If a weapon is not used due to its bad base status chance and multiplicative mods cannot help in this regard, additive mods will do the job. But in the end you did not create new builds, you just replaced one status mod with the other one. You are still just stacking crit and/or status.

True, but  to do that you´d need a way to change the strengths of a  weapon if you want to have build diversity, lets say:

1. You have a Riffle

2. It is fairly status based

3. It has  a good ammount of fire rate and other dps stats

But you cant mod it to crit effectivelly if you want just because the multiplicative mods wont cut it 

So lets also say:

1. There are  additive mods

2. Some of them have a trade off 

So you can now trade off some of that fire rate for some crit and start from there so you can build as you want it to

3 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Soma is a decent weapon, so are Boltor upgrades, especially Tellos version. Prisma Gorgon is in fact really strong. Every weapon you mentioned will work in any content in the game. Older weapons become relevant with Prime, Vandal, Wraith or whtever versions. Even meme Kraken could get a Wraith version and shake up the landscape

As i Said, they are all decent and fun weapons but to make them work they need a bit more of love than the meta ones, part of the diversity I'm trying to achieve is also to be able to see people with the weapon they like instead of what is the most effective one.

This is affected by enemy scaling and some unhealthy mechanics ingame, DE has abused of the invincibility windows or straight up bullet sponges and that should be addressed too... but we are on the weapons sub forum haha