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Update 10. This Is For The Devs


aldershot
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DE, i just watched the recorded live stream (a bit late to the show) and myself and some of my clannies have noticed that during the stream, your demeanor seemed defeated to an extent. As if your morale has been sucked out of you.

Personally i wish to thank you guys for the hard work, and for acknowledging the community response. It shows true integrity as a developer and it doesn't go unnoticed.

I wish to bring up that some times, you guys, DE, just need to go with your gut and not pay attention to EVERY thing people say here. I read a lot of the complaints and some of them are ridiculous, while a few did bring good points up. Though you should continue to listen to your fans, remember that not all of us are educated game devs. Many here make complaints to mold and shape the game into their own vision, but not with the overall balance, or understanding of how the game is actually designed in mind. Basically not all complaints are objective, many are what i call "greedy complaints". complaints made to serve only the user, not the game as a whole.

For example. People are complaining that the game is too grindy, yet doesn't have end game. These are contradictory complaints. how do you have more content with out people working for it? it's ridiculous. 

This game end game could use some expansions i can agree with, but too grindy? come on!! it's like these people have never played an RPG before. try diablo, FFXI, or even Borderlands 2. THAT'S GRINDY!! Warframe is easy getting mats together in comparison. 5-10 runs for a rare drop is NOT a lot considering many runs take less than 5 minutes, and im exaggerating here. rarely do i ever have to do more than 3 runs to get what i need of any thing in warframe.

Basically what i'm trying to say is, don't let the haters get you guys down. You guys pushed a lot of content out at once. reasonable players will expect some hic-ups and will understand.

Warframe is independently published and developed. You guys always speak so highly of this decision because it gives you creative freedom. Please don't let the community hinder that creative spirit. I'm not interested in what some 14 year old kid has to say about the future of warframe and it's design, i want to see what YOU guys have to show.

 

Let us guide you, but don't let us lead.

Continue the good work, thanks for listening to us DE, and know that the loudest are often the minority. 

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didnt read all the &#! kissing post, but because of people complaining you dont have now a stamina system thats makes you faint like a pro for delivering two kicks in a row, so thanks to players expresing their opinions your game is a little better today.

 

well constructed criticism is good, remember that as is essential to develop a competitive in the market product.

 

and if they were "As if your morale has been sucked out of you" is because they saw valid points in the feedback and realized they messed it big time with a lot of things.

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What, people still can't get pass pokemon 1st generation? XDXDXD.

 

I think warframe is an amazing game for allowing us to give feedback.

 

I have no problem with grindiness (except for nightmare blaze =P), but that's just me. Each time I start a game I feel a tinge of excitement, even when I know it's some mercury mission.

 

Specifically thank you for the ignis AOE. It's awesome and makes me wonder what programming went into that.

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didnt read all the &#! kissing post, but because of people complaining you dont have now a stamina system thats makes you faint like a pro for delivering two kicks in a row, so thanks to players expresing their opinions your game is a little better today.

 

well constructed criticism is good, remember that as is essential to develop a competitive in the market product.

 

and if they were "As if your morale has been sucked out of you" is because they saw valid points in the feedback and realized they messed it big time with a lot of things.

If you read the actual OP you'll realize i also agree that constructive criticism is good.

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This game end game could use some expansions i can agree with, but too grindy? come on!! it's like these people have never played an RPG before. try diablo, FFXI, or even Borderlands 2. THAT'S GRINDY!! Warframe is easy getting mats together in comparison. 5-10 runs for a rare drop is NOT a lot considering many runs take less than 5 minutes, and im exaggerating here. rarely do i ever have to do more than 3 runs to get what i need of any thing in warframe.

 

I agree with all of your post, even the quoted part I'm going to address. Keep that in mind.

 

The issue players experience in regards to being able to obtain what they went in 3-5 runs is that they expect it just as quickly. Let's take Void Keys as an example - Let's say you really want to farm a bunch of T3 Ext runs for your Frost Prime Warframe, right? There are a few options for obtaining this particular key, mostly Xini because that is a popular map.

 

Xini is the same thing every time you run it, but with different loot. Xini has the same Credit payout every time you run it and the same flood of Common / Uncommmon mods every time you run it. Running Xini 100 times for (assuming max 5 runs to obtain 1) 20 keys gets tiresome, boring, and uninteresting -- especially when your goal is to run the T3 Ext, not Xini.

 

This is compounded by the fact that some people know they cannot host multiplayer and will always try to join other people or by some players never even bothering to run Xini for their keys and instead lurk in the Recruiting channel. Not to mention it is not entirely feasible for every frame/weapon loadout to solo enough waves of Xini to acquire the key they want.

 

The main issue is that it feels like it's about the destination, not the journey. It might just be because you're running Xini 100 times, it might just be because you want what's in the Void and not what's in Xini, but it does feel unrewarding when you're farming for an RNG reward.

 

The Orokin Derelict keys is a very interesting implementation that addressed the RNG bit of acquiring the key you wanted. It's ridiculously easy to obtain the 5 Nav points to make any OD mission key and even easier to obtain Golem Navs after that (though that part doesn't make as much sense... Does it mean there are multiple golems out there or is it just one of the things that wasn't thought out in terms of lore and we have to accept it and move on?). Hell, you can get Golem Navs while on Assassination runs - which is great!

 

So what am I getting at? The game could really benefit from a LFG system that lets you queue up for missions by picking a Faction / Mission Type / Resource type (all queue types being optional, you can leave any field blank). Automatic matchmaking that makes it feel less necessary to run Xini 100 times. Something that takes the effort out of the journey, in a way.

 

what was i talking about aga-- OOH PLASTIC BAG

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something is not right..after the latest update, i am having trouble connecting to the warframe game window. it says "checking for any updates" for 10 minutes at times..only when i go onto warframes.com to see what the forums are saying, it then connects. its really weird. please def. look into this issue.

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This game end game could use some expansions i can agree with, but too grindy? come on!! it's like these people have never played an RPG before. try diablo, FFXI, or even Borderlands 2. THAT'S GRINDY!! Warframe is easy getting mats together in comparison. 5-10 runs for a rare drop is NOT a lot considering many runs take less than 5 minutes, and im exaggerating here. rarely do i ever have to do more than 3 runs to get what i need of any thing in warframe.

 

 

Sight... we've been through this, grind being worse somewhere else doesn't mean it's okay here. I'll give you an example: "You complain about criminality here? Only ten people have been killed in this town this week, there's been twenty killed in the next town. So there's no need to do aynthing about criminality in this town." that's some awesome logic right there.

 

Next, I've done 60 runs for Dakra prime and I'm still missing both BP and blade. You got lucky so the problem doesn't exist for the other people? Well, good for you... selfish prick. And thirdly, it's not about the grind, it's about the RNG. There's no progression, I would be fine with having to run a mission (you already have to grind to get to) 20 times if I was guaranteed I'd get what I need. But that's not the case, I could do 1000 runs and not get what I want since it's sheer dumb fing luck.

 

I was actually glad I've seen devs dejected somewhat, when you screw up and your parents yell at you you're supposed to feel bad... that's the whole @(*()$ point and it's for your own good.

 

And if you noticed DE seems to listen to the community for the tiny stuff while playing dead when the big important issues come up. Gee DE, thank you for conclave and that new UI.. we sure wanted that, but when are we getting the clusterfuck that is the entire void and RNG system resolved? There's been million topics and suggestions about that but not a reply from DE in single one of them.

 

They tweak the little stuf f while making the grind WORSE every update. First the void then the dojo research and prices, mutagen, new infested stuff, derelicts... it isn't getting better. You get one free pass.. you don't get it with every fing update. But it's worse in other games guyz.. well, wait a few months and we'll get the same thing here, since we apparently need to applaude DE for every fuckup they make, give them some candy and say "Oh you.. here, better luck next time."

Edited by LocoWithGun
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Finally Someone

 

Congrats ! aldershot 

 

I COMPLETELY agree , DE you guys shouldent stray from your ideas and listen to everything ppl say. 

Listening to the community for inspiration, feedback thats nice and all BUT dont go with every 10 year old who wants an invincible weapon and frame , so he can 1 hit everything and leave after some time saying things like "its to easy , i finished it in 1 week".  There must be limits and balance.

We the players and consumers only think we know what we want... we dont no matter what we say. 

 

Aside from the stated above..... PLS PLS 

DO NOT take the away SKILL from the game and make it too easy 

 

why ?

1. Weapons.

You make mobs more hard and then you give us stronger weapons . Its PVE and its understandable but many ppl prefer things that they can learn and master than use to easaly kill

 

Example : you have Torid who used to kill you , and Ogris that could jam . Why fix torid ? becuse ppl cant shoot correctly and arent carefull ? since when is it your job to offer prostetics to every player who dosent think enoughf to avoid a cloud. ???

 

Many ppl prefer to have weapons aldo strong to have drawbacks. Its more skill oriented . Because you learn to use it correctly and its more situational making room for other weapons with different purposes.  

Ex. besides the classics

       Infested rifle to suck your life out of you the more you use it. 

       Corpus weapon to use up a percentige of your shield when overused. 

       Aim is not where the dot is exactly , gun pushes you back etc

 

In a sense flaws make the weapons more interesting . There is nothing wrong with you poisoning yourself with a gun like torid , or dmg yourself with missiles or jamming . In my opinion is the best thing you guys did to make the weapon interesting. The stronger the weapon the more hazardous it becomes. DE you guys are great. 

 

2 Tile sets: 

You fixed the map so that every SLUG can get from point A to point B without knowing how to climb ? NO Just NO .... By the time you get to those parts you learn a few things in the game including Maneuvers  . NOBODY i know ... who played 50 hours in the game didint take 2 extra minutes to figure it out and then were happy they learned something.  

 

Want to be ninja ... learn to use what you have to the fullest and improvize, dont cry to DE to fix the MAP !  If its difficult it dosent mean its bad. 

Dont listen to players who cry over everything ! If they dont know manuvers and who to make use of it ... give up a BOOK to read. or a small advancet turorial .... Even so the lazy players DONT DESERVE it. 

 

You guys shouldent stray from your ideas and listen to everything ppl say. 

More power to you DE and its a great game ! 

 

In case you read this thread... and notice that there are ppl so lazy....yeah ... so lazy  they dont even read the a whole opening post from top. As you can see these are the ppl your dealing with . Dont listen ! :) let them work for it , be evil a little ;)

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DE, i just watched the recorded live stream (a bit late to the show) and myself and some of my clannies have noticed that during the stream, your demeanor seemed defeated to an extent. As if your morale has been sucked out of you.

Basically what i'm trying to say is, don't let the haters get you guys down. You guys pushed a lot of content out at once. reasonable players will expect some hic-ups and will understand.

 

The devs looked exhausted because they worked very long hours for several days straight (possibly more) in order to put together the update.  This is the same process by which they've pushed out every major update.  The problem is, that's a terrible strategy.  Throwing updates together at the last minute when your team isn't thinking clearly leads to a lot of mistakes.  Your team then has to spend more time revisiting those areas later down the road.  It's a waste of time, manpower, and money, and it also drains morale (for both the developers and players). 

 

No reasonable person expects glitch-free updates, but they do expect a certain level of testing to have been performed ahead of launch.  Hell, knowledgeable players will even test things out for you if you let them (and no, releasing a patch to the public does not count as testing).  DE needs to slow down the pace; update 10 clearly wasn't ready to be release, and they were not being forced to release it.  It would have made far more sense to just delay the patch for a week and make sure it was good. 

 

I wish to bring up that some times, you guys, DE, just need to go with your gut

 

No offense, but that's a pretty terrible strategy for creating anything, let alone something as complex as a videogame.  Things need to be tested and reanalyzed constantly.  Gut feelings should only provide a starting point, not a finish line.  I might think that allowing pistols to have 120% multishot but only 120% crit chance would be balanced, but until I do at least some basic math calculations to compare damage statistics to other weapons, there is a very good chance that I will be horribly wrong.  

 

For example. People are complaining that the game is too grindy, yet doesn't have end game. These are contradictory complaints. how do you have more content with out people working for it? it's ridiculous. 

This game end game could use some expansions i can agree with, but too grindy? come on!! it's like these people have never played an RPG before. try diablo, FFXI, or even Borderlands 2. THAT'S GRINDY!! Warframe is easy getting mats together in comparison. 5-10 runs for a rare drop is NOT a lot considering many runs take less than 5 minutes, and im exaggerating here. rarely do i ever have to do more than 3 runs to get what i need of any thing in warframe.

 

Grind is not the same as endgame, even though most MMO developers wish it was.  If anything, grinding is the opposite of endgame content, because endgame activities are supposed to stay fun, even if players repeat it one thousand times.  Content is only usually considered to be grinding if it is boring and repetitive.  In other words, players were complaining that there was too much grinding and not enough fun, diverse content. 

 

Additionally, I hated Borderlands 2 precisely due to the grind it enforced.  I literally stopped playing after I beat the game once, and I used to love Borderlands 1.  In my opinion, Borderlands 2 took the worst elements of single-player RPGs, MMOs, and co-op shooters, and combined them all into one unholy mess.    It featured the grind of an MMO, the stat-based (and therefore lack of skill-based) combat of an RPG, and the unfair difficulty of a co-op shooter forced to accommodate (but never approve of) solo players.  

 

One last thing: Satoshi Tajiri and others at Game Freak might laugh at the Pokemon fanbase, but plenty of people are laughing just as hard at the newer Pokemon games.  They haven't truly adapted or evolved since Silver and Gold.  Even back then, they had terrible characters and stories, strategy during combat was almost nonexistent, and the games were essentially a massive grindfest.  If Black and White had been released outside of the Pokemon brand, they wouldn't have been remarkable in any way. 

Edited by Ganpot
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About grind and endgame:

 

Grind

-A game feels grindy if if it becomes tedious and repetitive. When you start engaging in the activity, not cause you like but, but need to do it and keep doing it for hours on end, it feels grindy. Just because other games have a grind, doesn't make it good, 10+ years of an online grind ghetto only have served to put players off of grinding.Once you've moved on from the first grinding game you play, its harder to keep your attention on the new one. Grind feels shallow and cheap, as a poor, lazy way to extend play time. If a game is short, that's okay as long as its good, otherwise people wouldn't replay the same games from over 10 years ago over and over again.

 

Churning out content is difficult, so for a small team its obviously gonna take awhile, and players will always have a group that blows through your content in record time and ask for more, that's a given. DE tried a novel approach with random levels, but I feel that has cause more problems than it could hope to solve. You can't really hide collectables in a random map and make it fair, stealth play is thrown out to the field, and worse yet all levels tend to feel similar after awhile because one recognizes the algorithm layout of tiles. Not to mention it makes it difficult, if not impossible to interject lore into the actual game play of the game. I hope in the future DE slowly goes back and crafts up levels by hand, giving the game the console feel it seems to be trying to emulate.

 

Endgame

-Players want something to test their best stuff against, and currently there isn't anything suitable for it. The void and defense (and survival I suppose) are the closest, but none give the satisfaction as say some well crafted missions and bosses. Warframe's nebulous nature, combined with the lack of any actual story experience combine here to cause this to be the focus. If there was something like a proper story mode with a difficulty setting that might ease the problem, but how feasible that is I have no idea.

 

Nightmare mode was an attempt at giving another endgame option, but its terrible as it provides arbitrary, rather than skill based challenge and adds little to the game overall.

 

DE has done a fantastic job laying a groundwork for a game with potential. What I feel they need to do now is flush it out, stop putting out weapons/frames, and really, really work on lore, story, and some mission structure that promotes and encourages active teamplay in co-op, and still generates a good single player experience. 

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I am kinda loling at some responses here. it seems mostly about the grinding aspect of my op. I've played warframe for about 2 months now and i already have 8 warframes, a flux that's forma'd 5 times, an acrid forma'd 4 times, an orthos prime forma'd 3 times, and all frames (8) formaed at least once, along with other misc forma'd weapons. I also have nearly all of series 1 and 2 weapons constructed. THAT'S ONLY 2 MONTHS worth of play time and i've gained much of what warframe has to offer and a completely upgraded end game load out.

try... just TRY to get that much progress done in that short amount of time in any other online RPG. you'll be hard to find one. If any thing, i was a little disappointed that warframe is practically handing out their best stuff. and that's probably because of all the whiners.

Every one here who complains about the grind, it's YOUR fault that dragon age 2 turned out like sh!t.
I just want you all to know that.

Generation I(ntitled)

Edited by aldershot
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the stat-based (and therefore lack of skill-based) combat of an RPG, and the unfair difficulty of a co-op shooter forced to accommodate (but never approve of) solo players.

"the stat-based (and therefore LACK OF SKILL-BASED)..."

I'm not even going to elaborate on what's wrong with this statement. I'll just leave this here as evidence of the lack of understanding of game design and strategy some of the whiners have.

Every old school RPGer is face palming to that statement.

Edited by aldershot
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I am kinda loling at some responses here. it seems mostly about the grinding aspect of my op. I've played warframe for about 2 months now and i already have 8 warframes, a flux that's forma'd 5 times, an acrid forma'd 4 times, an orthos prime forma'd 3 times, and all frames (8) formaed at least once, along with other misc forma'd weapons. I also have nearly all of series 1 and 2 weapons constructed. THAT'S ONLY 2 MONTHS worth of play time and i've gained much of what warframe has to offer and a completely upgraded end game load out.

 

It would be more useful if you listed the number of hours you've played (it's listed in your player profile, if you didn't know).  I've got over 300 hours logged, and I'm very close to having built everything in the game (I've got around 12 weapons and 3 warframes (including prime variants) left).  Do you want to know what keeps me playing?  It isn't the grind for resources, mods, or credits.  It isn't even the desire to collect everything (although that is my ultimate goal).  I continue to play because I am having fun.  Chopping an unaware Grineer in half with a sword is fun.  Blowing up a horde of Infested with an Ogris is fun.  Soloing a T3 mission is fun.  I will keep playing the game for as long as it remains fun, and not one second more. 

 

Content is supposed to be a way of providing variety, not of enforcing a grind in the mistaken notion that your playerbase is controlled by the subconscious need to finish everything.  If players wanted a grindfest, they would never have started playing Warframe in the first place.  They would instead be slaving away at one of the hundreds of P2W Korean MMOs which exist. 

 

Every one here who complains about the grind, it's YOUR fault that dragon age 2 turned out like sh!t.

I just want you all to know that.

 

Yes, because Dragon Age 2 was a terrible game due to a lack of grind.  Not because its story railroaded you from start to finish.  Not because the game was exceptionally shorter and less complex than its predecessor.  Not because EA literally gave Bioware 8 months to make the game, purely as a cash-in after the surprising success of Dragon Age Origins.  Not because of the simplified and non-strategic combat, the maps repeated ad nauseum, all of the plot holes, or the two-dimensional characters.  Nevermind the fact that Dragon Age Origins had no noticeable grind; let's just blame the fans. 

 

 

EDIT:

"the stat-based (and therefore LACK OF SKILL-BASED)..."

I'm not even going to elaborate on what's wrong with this statement. I'll just leave this here as evidence of the lack of understanding of game design and strategy some of the whiners have.

Every old school RPGer is face palming to that statement.

 

You realize I was using that statement in the context of a shooter, right?  But go ahead, give me an example of a skill-based shooter which uses stats to determine everything.  I'll just wait here. 

 

Besides, I've played ye olde RPGs.  Knights of the Old Republic, Planescape Torment, etc.  Those games were rarely popular because of their combat.  They were (and still are) famous for their stories.  It's the same thing with D&D (which most old RPGs inherited their combat systems from).  Relatively few people play D&D for the visceral combat; they play because it allows them to roleplay. 

Edited by Ganpot
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300 hours and you got almost every thing.

More proof that this game is NOT a grind what so ever.

My borderlands 2 has over 1200 hours and im still working to get every thing.

It took me almost 500 hours to get a key in FFXI to get my AF glove (end game gear). that's just 1 part to get it.

It took me nearly 500 hours to gain 100mil in diablo so i can buy one weapon that's worth wild.

knights of the old republic is not old school youngling. Go back to your ipads and CoD.

Edited by aldershot
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300 hours and you got almost every thing.

More proof that this game is NOT a grind what so ever.

 

It's a little hard to compare to most MMOs, since Warframe is less progression based.  However, it usually takes far less than 300 hours to get to the level cap and get decent (or even top tier) gear in many MMORPGs.  To put that 300 hour mark into perspective, I've played Warframe almost every day since the open beta.  That's just about 6 months of continuous playtime. 

 

 

My borderlands 2 has over 1200 hours and im still working to get every thing.

It took me almost 500 hours to get a key in FFXI to get my AF glove (end game gear). that's just 1 part to get it.

It took me nearly 500 hours to gain 100mil in diablo so i can buy one weapon that's worth wild.

 

And what do all of those games have in common?  A large amount of players routinely complain about the amount of grind.  Just because other games are worse, doesn't excuse a game for being bad.  If the only review standard for a game was that it was better than ET, that would be a pretty abysmally low bar.  It's fine if you enjoy grind-fests, there's nothing wrong with that.  But don't demand every game cater only to your demands, when you are pretty clearly in the minority. 

 

 

knights of the old republic is not old school youngling. Go back to your ipads and CoD.

 

How nice of you to stoop to insults and massive assumptions in the same sentence, while simultaneously hiding behind invisible text.  I'm afraid that I must apologize for never having played ASCII RPGs.  I'm told gaming has gone downhill ever since the invention of graphics. 

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It's a little hard to compare to most MMOs, since Warframe is less progression based.  However, it usually takes far less than 300 hours to get to the level cap and get decent (or even top tier) gear in many MMORPGs.  To put that 300 hour mark into perspective, I've played Warframe almost every day since the open beta.  That's just about 6 months of continuous playtime. 

 

- 300 hours in 6 months. so you are super casual and play maybe an hour a day. I got that much hours in my 2 months stay so far. This says to me you have minimal understanding of warframe's design intent.

 

 

And what do all of those games have in common?  A large amount of players routinely complain about the amount of grind.  Just because other games are worse, doesn't excuse a game for being bad.  If the only review standard for a game was that it was better than ET, that would be a pretty abysmally low bar.  It's fine if you enjoy grind-fests, there's nothing wrong with that.  But don't demand every game cater only to your demands, when you are pretty clearly in the minority. 

 

- Please check the forums of the respective game before assuming people are complaining. people on those game forums are too busy discussing game mechanics and finding help from each other to attain their goals to be bothered with whining that they can't have every thing in the first 5 hours. And how am i clearly the minority? do you have some kind of stats? have you've done studies? no? then it's just hearsay. 

-Oh, and diablo is taking out the AH so avoiding the grind is now impossible, even with real money. oh, and the community of diablo LOVES this idea. you are WRONG.

 

How nice of you to stoop to insults and massive assumptions in the same sentence, while simultaneously hiding behind invisible text.  I'm afraid that I must apologize for never having played ASCII RPGs.  I'm told gaming has gone downhill ever since the invention of graphics. 

 

- i call it as i see it. and for the record, gaming's gone down hill since the invention of the internet forums. I was a game design student, and i was taught "you need to design games as though your audience were 5 year olds". this is from my level design instructor, lead enviroment designer of Skate for EA. I asked "shouldn't we give gamers more credit than that?" his response "read internet forums". i was silenced after that. so yeah... your fault games are bad and way too easy.

Edited by aldershot
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- 300 hours in 6 months. so you are super casual and play maybe an hour a day. I got that much hours in my 2 months stay so far. This says to me you have minimal understanding of warframe's design intent.

 

If 300 hours is your definition of super casual, then I really don't know what to say.  I can guarantee you that the vast majority of players are not at mastery rank 9 or higher.  Does that make them utter noobs in your eyes?  Three hundred hours is more than enough time to understand a game's inherent design.  Besides, a lot of Warframe's progression is completely independent of the number of hours played, and this was especially true of the game before the arrival of clan dojos. 

 

 

 

- Please check the forums of the respective game before assuming people are complaining. people on those game forums are too busy discussing game mechanics and finding help from each other to attain their goals to be bothered with whining that they can't have every thing in the first 5 hours.

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/search?f=post&page=1&q=grind

http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=169664

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/35226-Reasons-Why-FFXI-is-Declining?p=453448&highlight=grind#post453448

You were saying? 

 

 

-Oh, and diablo is taking out the AH so avoiding the grind is now impossible, even with real money. oh, and the community of diablo LOVES this idea. you are WRONG.

 

Diablo 3 is getting a revamped loot system precisely because the devs are removing the auction house.  That's why people are happy.  You conveniently forgot about that part.   

 

 

- i call it as i see it. and for the record, gaming's gone down hill since the invention of the internet forums. I was a game design student, and i was taught "you need to design games as though your audience were 5 year olds". this is from my level design instructor, lead enviroment designer of Skate for EA. I asked "shouldn't we give gamers more credit than that?" his response "read internet forums". i was silenced after that. so yeah... your fault games are bad and way too easy.

 

Do I even have to mention that you were told this by someone who works for EA?  Last I checked, that company didn't have the greatest reputation.  And for the record, forums have rarely negatively impacted game development.  Do you know what usually does?  Catering to the broadest possible audience, while simultaneously treating them like idiots.  Warframe is an example of good level design: the game mostly shows you where to go, but it also has secret areas and shortcuts which require thought on the part of the player. 

Edited by Ganpot
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If 300 hours is your definition of super casual, then I really don't know what to say.  I can guarantee you that the vast majority of players are not at mastery rank 9 or higher.  Does that make them utter noobs in your eyes?  Three hundred hours is more than enough time to understand a game's inherent design.  Besides, a lot of Warframe's progression is completely independent of the number of hours played, and this was especially true of the game before the arrival of clan dojos. 

 

- no, what im saying is 300 hours over 6 months is low. I'm 300 hours into warframe and only now i even would consider myself some what familiar with the game. i still don't consider myself an expert and often seek advice from my clan, full of 1000+ hour players. so don't pretend to be some kind of master.

 

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/search?f=post&page=1&q=grind

http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=169664

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/35226-Reasons-Why-FFXI-is-Declining?p=453448&highlight=grind#post453448

You were saying? 

 

- wow, nice self damning evidence you posted. read the replys. all the OPs are getting flamed by players who enjoy playing the game, and not just asking for freebies like your type. not to mention, that every game forum will have whiners. i was referring to the forums of the respective games as a whole, not one or 2 picked out threads to highlight your own point. more evidence of the type of rational players like you seek. 

 

 

Diablo 3 is getting a revamped loot system precisely because the devs are removing the auction house.  That's why people are happy.  You conveniently forgot about that part. 

 

- hahahahahha

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/10974978/ read the comments.

 

 

 

Do I even have to mention that you were told this by someone who works for EA?  Last I checked, that company didn't have the greatest reputation.  And for the record, forums have rarely negatively impacted game development.  Do you know what usually does?  Catering to the broadest possible audience, while simultaneously treating them like idiots.  Warframe is an example of good level design: the game mostly shows you where to go, but it also has secret areas and shortcuts which require thought on the part of the player. 

 

- so..... you think you know more than a professional game designer, of an award winning game like skate. again, evidence of your type of player's mind set. 

Edited by aldershot
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