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Blexander

Adding new frames VS Reworking old frames and QoL

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The recent Devstream left me very mixed feelings.

The things I didn't like:

1. The Running Man (name subject to change): I don't understand the thought process that caused this frame to come into concept. "Volt can run fast, so let's take the ability that let's him run fast and make a frame out of it." It doesn't sit well with me at all that this frame had more thought put into it than the upcoming Oni frame. It's not even like I have anything against the concept, a kinetic-based frame is something we don't have in any form, I just think he won't be of much use when
a) the doors in 99% of the star chart open too slowly for Volt
b) everybody's already used to poping Archwings in PoE and Valis to cross large distances 

2. QoL changes that nerfed Ember even further: Ember's in a real hole, a hole she's been in for a while, a with little to no feedback from DE, we can just assume they have no plans on doing anything about it.

The things I'm neutral about:

1. The Wukong rework:
1st ability: The AI of NPCs is infamous for being very inconsistent and broken. I have no experience if there have been changes to the AI that make it good, nor have I seen the Duality augment in action, so I'll just leave it at "there's a chance for it to not work properly at all". And another issue comes into play when we put this ability into practice on high level mission where you're going to more inclined to use your primary weapons for damage dealing, status procs, etc., and most importantly, not getting shredded at mid-close range (which is now a risk for Wukong due to Defy not letting him "cheat death" anymore)

2nd ability: I can understand the outrage from Wukong mains, losing the one good thing about the current Wukong. The ability has potential to be good due to the damage reflection, and the small window of invulnerability is honestly more balanced than immortality. It's like something akin to Mesa.

3rd ability: A genuine improvement to the current version. Nothing more needs to be said, it's simply an overwhelmingly positive change.

4th ability: The increased range of attacks and AoE combos are a nice addition.

2. The killcams
DE experimenting with this is neither here nor there. It's nice and all, but it doesn't seem fitting to me. It kinda feels like it slows down combat.

The things I liked:

1. The Oni (name subject to change) frame: I consider the Oni frame to be a very unique concept not yet implemented in the game (more or less). It's still to early to tell how he'll work, but from the given idea of "he eats things", we can assume he's gonna be a tank, probably going to have some sort of healing/buff upon voring an enemy, maybe a taunt, who knows.

2. The Sentient Tileset: Any news on the progress on The New War is a good news. The tileset looks very eerie and "dead" so to speak. It presents the concept of a very "alien", dismal and hostile setting perfectly.

 

Devstream 128 came with some surprises, some good, some eh, and some questionable. It's been a long time since the game took up a more active playstyle where damage is king, and CC has been left to effectively rot. It's clear that DE has no idea rework certain frames to find the current meta, and it clearly shows. The Vauban rework is more than overdo, but so was a Wukong one. When you think about it, why did DE present the Wukong rework before a Vauban's? It's because Wukong is an off-tank frame, therefore, he's easier to balance and scale up. At this rate, we won't be seeing many of the long requested reworks (Titania, Ember, Nyx, Zephyr) for a while, but we'll keep getting new frame's at a moderate rate (assuming those frames don't turn out like pre-release Khora, and need reworking as well). It's my personal belief that DE should spend a good amount of time adjusting segments of the game that are commonly criticized. There are a lot of new players coming to Warframe, seeing the overbloated amount of content and either persevering and reaching said content, or being intimidated by it. The only thing I see when new Warframes/weapons are being added back-to-back is DE trying to get veteran player to comeback and try them, when what I think they should do is make more varied ways to play the game using the already acquired gear. This is why I think Disruption and, in conjuncture, the Jovian Concord was such a massive success.

 

Tl;dr: Running man = bad, Oni = good, New Wukong = eh, an indirect Ember nerf (quelle surprise), killcam = kinda slow. More game types, less new warframes, imo.

Should DE keep pumping out new frames/content or fix/rework/improve the already existing ones and QoL?

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8 minutes ago, Blexander said:

2. The killcams
DE experimenting with this is neither here nor there. It's nice and all, but it doesn't seem fitting to me. It kinda feels like it slows down combat.

quoting steve: "we don't want it to slow the pace so it is most likely to be some sort of special enemy that you will kill last "

so to rephrase - to only happen when you stop anyways to decide what to do/where to go next

11 minutes ago, Blexander said:

2. QoL changes that nerfed Ember even further: Ember's in a real hole, a hole she's been in for a while, a with little to no feedback from DE, we can just assume they have no plans on doing anything about it.

they are reworking frames, ember's turn will come some day

13 minutes ago, Blexander said:

1. The Running Man (name subject to change): 

like it or not new content is what keeps people around, and DE is well known for moving on from stuff they forgot about and backlog of useless frames will only pile up for the rework team

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34 minutes ago, Blexander said:

1. The Running Man (name subject to change): I don't understand the thought process that caused this frame to come into concept. "Volt can run fast, so let's take the ability that let's him run fast and make a frame out of it." It doesn't sit well with me at all that this frame had more thought put into it than the upcoming Oni frame. It's not even like I have anything against the concept, a kinetic-based frame is something we don't have in any form, I just think he won't be of much use when

a) the doors in 99% of the star chart open too slowly for Volt
b) everybody's already used to poping Archwings in PoE and Valis to cross large distances 

The same one that went into developing Octavia. Volt's theme is electricity, NOT speed. Same way Banshee's theme is sound and not music. 

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59 minutes ago, Blexander said:

1. The Running Man (name subject to change): I don't understand the thought process that caused this frame to come into concept. "Volt can run fast, so let's take the ability that let's him run fast and make a frame out of it." It doesn't sit well with me at all that this frame had more thought put into it than the upcoming Oni frame. It's not even like I have anything against the concept, a kinetic-based frame is something we don't have in any form, I just think he won't be of much use when
a) the doors in 99% of the star chart open too slowly for Volt
b) everybody's already used to poping Archwings in PoE and Valis to cross large distances 

Volt can do a lot more then just running, he has the best defensive skill for endurance runs, decent cc, a great passive and in generell he's an all round good and unique frame. Extremely versatile at that to capable of altering between defending and nuking. Also lets not forget that he's basically the only frame you cant replace in eidolon hunts. Volt speed builds have always been just a meme. Volts true capabilities in in his versatility.

1 hour ago, Blexander said:

2. QoL changes that nerfed Ember even further: Ember's in a real hole, a hole she's been in for a while, a with little to no feedback from DE, we can just assume they have no plans on doing anything about it.

She needs a total rework, she wasnt in a good state either before the nerf. Being a mindless low level nuke isnt really good either.

1 hour ago, Blexander said:

1. The Wukong rework:
1st ability: The AI of NPCs is infamous for being very inconsistent and broken. I have no experience if there have been changes to the AI that make it good, nor have I seen the Duality augment in action, so I'll just leave it at "there's a chance for it to not work properly at all". And another issue comes into play when we put this ability into practice on high level mission where you're going to more inclined to use your primary weapons for damage dealing, status procs, etc., and most importantly, not getting shredded at mid-close range (which is now a risk for Wukong due to Defy not letting him "cheat death" anymore)

This remains to be seen, AI abilities like equinoxs duality are extremely good, same thing for excal umbras passive. Also many specters like a vauban specter do a decent job of doing what they're supposed to. So there is hope on that one.

1 hour ago, Blexander said:

2nd ability: I can understand the outrage from Wukong mains, losing the one good thing about the current Wukong. The ability has potential to be good due to the damage reflection, and the small window of invulnerability is honestly more balanced than immortality. It's like something akin to Mesa.

Immortality was never good, making a frame immune to death without involving any form of interaction is bad designe. Same reason why I consider octavia a bad frame, she basically plays the game for you.

1 hour ago, Blexander said:

3rd ability: A genuine improvement to the current version. Nothing more needs to be said, it's simply an overwhelmingly positive change.

If the buff is decent enough, maybe we can see an eidolon hunting wukong, who knows.

1 hour ago, Blexander said:

4th ability: The increased range of attacks and AoE combos are a nice addition.

Yep.

1 hour ago, Blexander said:

2. The killcams
DE experimenting with this is neither here nor there. It's nice and all, but it doesn't seem fitting to me. It kinda feels like it slows down combat.

I hate cutscenes so I hope this doesnt become a thing.

1 hour ago, Blexander said:

1. The Oni (name subject to change) frame: I consider the Oni frame to be a very unique concept not yet implemented in the game (more or less). It's still to early to tell how he'll work, but from the given idea of "he eats things", we can assume he's gonna be a tank, probably going to have some sort of healing/buff upon voring an enemy, maybe a taunt, who knows.

Its going to be interesting what they'll do with that concept, especially since the latest released frames turn out really good.

1 hour ago, Blexander said:

2. The Sentient Tileset: Any news on the progress on The New War is a good news. The tileset looks very eerie and "dead" so to speak. It presents the concept of a very "alien", dismal and hostile setting perfectly.

The one thing I like is that its big, which means nuker frames wont be to OP there, because enemies will be more spread out.

1 hour ago, Blexander said:

Devstream 128 came with some surprises, some good, some eh, and some questionable. It's been a long time since the game took up a more active playstyle where damage is king, and CC has been left to effectively rot. It's clear that DE has no idea rework certain frames to find the current meta, and it clearly shows. The Vauban rework is more than overdo, but so was a Wukong one. When you think about it, why did DE present the Wukong rework before a Vauban's? It's because Wukong is an off-tank frame, therefore, he's easier to balance and scale up. At this rate, we won't be seeing many of the long requested reworks (Titania, Ember, Nyx, Zephyr) for a while, but we'll keep getting new frame's at a moderate rate (assuming those frames don't turn out like pre-release Khora, and need reworking as well). It's my personal belief that DE should spend a good amount of time adjusting segments of the game that are commonly criticized. There are a lot of new players coming to Warframe, seeing the overbloated amount of content and either persevering and reaching said content, or being intimidated by it. The only thing I see when new Warframes/weapons are being added back-to-back is DE trying to get veteran player to comeback and try them, when what I think they should do is make more varied ways to play the game using the already acquired gear. This is why I think Disruption and, in conjuncture, the Jovian Concord was such a massive success.

Agree with you on that one.

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48 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Volt's theme is electricity, NOT speed.

 

10 minutes ago, BlachWolf said:

Volt can do a lot more then just running, he has the best defensive skill for endurance runs, decent cc, a great passive and in generell he's an all round good and unique frame. Extremely versatile at that to capable of altering between defending and nuking. Also lets not forget that he's basically the only frame you cant replace in eidolon hunts. Volt speed builds have always been just a meme. Volts true capabilities in in his versatility.

My critique of Running man has almost nothing to do with Volt. I was just using Volt as an example of a frame that can, and does, go fast. What's the point of a warframe that has his abilities tied to his speed/throttle meter? 99% of the star chart is cramped hallways, sharp turns and slow door. I can only see him as way of quickly traversing PoE (but not Valis, due to PoE having a flatter terrain), but, why not just keep using Archwings. Imo, they should dump the concept of him being THE fast frame and make him into something of a "kick" frame, and it doesn't get rid of the kinetic part of his design. Just speed isn't enough to make him viable.

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7 hours ago, Blexander said:

3rd abilityA genuine improvement to the current version. Nothing more needs to be said, it's simply an overwhelmingly positive change.

The ability just received a small buff of increased speed while the the cloud and a bonus crit chance. A completely new ability will be more welcomed than a buff for a virtually dead ability.

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Well, I can say that we know nothing about a running man, except that he can run and most likely is his passive ability. Otherwise, I can not even imagine what abilities he will possess. For a fat person, I have more thoughts, mostly related to the theme of the ancient healer. But in general, I agree. They create a new frame by borrowing the abilities of the old and simply improving them.

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vor 16 Stunden schrieb Blexander:

 

My critique of Running man has almost nothing to do with Volt. I was just using Volt as an example of a frame that can, and does, go fast. What's the point of a warframe that has his abilities tied to his speed/throttle meter? 99% of the star chart is cramped hallways, sharp turns and slow door. I can only see him as way of quickly traversing PoE (but not Valis, due to PoE having a flatter terrain), but, why not just keep using Archwings. Imo, they should dump the concept of him being THE fast frame and make him into something of a "kick" frame, and it doesn't get rid of the kinetic part of his design. Just speed isn't enough to make him viable.

Dude, all we saw was 1 in development broken looking ability.. you act like all 4 of his abilities are just speed buffs.. and as if his passive is also just a speed buff..

calm down.

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4 hours ago, AugustFestival said:

can you clarify what you nerf you mean

Javlok's nerf not letting you set yourself on fire anymore.

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On 2019-05-26 at 4:10 PM, Blexander said:

2. The Sentient Tileset: Any news on the progress on The New War is a good news. The tileset looks very eerie and "dead" so to speak. It presents the concept of a very "alien", dismal and hostile setting perfectly.

that sentient tileset is in middle of construction as cant expect the sentients to instantly build something.
they have said the new war will be coming out this year but that can only be said for pc but not for the other platforms

 

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4 hours ago, Blexander said:

Javlok's nerf not letting you set yourself on fire anymore.

This is why most passives in this game are silly.  You either make all passive minor effects, or they should form the foundation of the Warframe.  You can't have Warframes like Limbo, Nidus, and then you have Ember or Volt or Loki.  

I can't believe after so many years, every time I come back to this game, and I still see Ember being one of the worst designed "Hero".  Yet they always find a way to screw it up some more, directly or indirectly.

 

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34 minutes ago, Casval_Rouge said:

You can't have Warframes like Limbo, Nidus, and then you have Ember or Volt or Loki.  

Volt's passive is pretty good already

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It's the exact same problem as always; DE needs to continuously release new content to keep the game afloat, they do attempt to balance in polishing and reworks but new content is always the priority.

But for some of your other points:

     We've only been shown a single ability (which wasn't finalized) of RunningMan and only know that he's based around "speed". For all we know the rest his abilities will be similar the kind of fighting style The Flash uses (rapid movements, utlizing momentum, spinning fast enough to generate wind currents, etc). But there is no justification in judging how practical or effective he'll be until we see his entire kit (and even then it's still not fully justified until he's in-game).

     The Ember changes (to WoF) were not QoL changes; they were changes made to directly fix the "afk Ember" issue. They weren't made to improve or buff her in any way but to remove a lazy strategy the devs didn't approve of.

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I understand the fact that new content such as new frames are a major way that DE attracts new/returning players, but I feel like there can be a compromise here. Looking at league of legends, their pace of new champion releases has slowed drastically since its peak during ~2014. Instead, there is substantially more focus towards reworking older champions. And these are large-scale reworks, with new movesets, mechanics, vfx and sfx, akin in scope and size to brand new champions and given just as flashy announcement trailers. This maintains the pace of new content for players, while also helping to refresh outdated content.

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11 hours ago, trst said:

The Ember changes (to WoF) were not QoL changes; they were changes made to directly fix the "afk Ember" issue. They weren't made to improve or buff her in any way but to remove a lazy strategy the devs didn't approve of.

1st point:
I wasn't referring to the WoF nerf as the latest nerf she received, if you bothered to read the other comments. AFK Ember may be an issue that has been "dealt with", but you cannot justify WoF having (at 100% charge) a base range lower than VACUUM. There is literally no reason to build her for range, Accelarant's stun is pretty much insignificant, plus the ability is cheap. Anybody upset over old Ember is just salty they couldn't get to kill anything on low-mid level mission because they had her in the squad. 

2nd point:
DE is clearly against a "turn on and forget about it" abilities, but Equinox exists. Sure, every couple of minutes you have to recast the 4th ability to nuke a large area, and continue doing what you were beforehand, while building for full range. 

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One thing is true tho... Doors need a opening buff because you even get slowed down when you bullet jump.. so volt needs those doors opened much faster

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On 2019-05-27 at 1:59 PM, Blexander said:

Javlok's nerf not letting you set yourself on fire anymore.

ah yea I agree I posted a topic about it : ( I wish they would let you toggle it or something...

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Maybe we should just wait till we actually see the running frame before criticizing him. I mean, we saw one WIP ability and one visual only ability. Too early to make any assumptions yet.

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Personally I’m tired to see new warframes coming out every 2 month or so. They bring little to nothing to the game, some abilities are copy/paste from other warframes and in the end who’s really play all 40 warframes? Fix existing stuff make it rock solid, add stories/lore, quests, challenges, missions types, mods if you want, but forget warframes. Amen.

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On 2019-05-26 at 5:10 PM, Blexander said:

 

Should DE keep pumping out new frames/content or fix/rework/improve the already existing ones and QoL?

Honestly, they should do both. They should have two teams here (if they don't) - one for revs on existing content, and one for developing new. 

However, for them, reworking old frames does not bring in money (unless they do it to coincide with a priming, I suppose). Existing frames aren't revenue generators, so if they have to choose, then it's probably an obvious choice to them.

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb Ham_Grenabe:

Honestly, they should do both. They should have two teams here (if they don't) - one for revs on existing content, and one for developing new. 

Judging from what DE communicates only Pablo seems to do the reworks. It always makes me very uneasy to see a SPOF. 

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