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(PS4)Coyote_x_Starrk

The new melee System is garbage and has taken the fun out of Warframe for me

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Aight chief. Few things. As a ps4 player and an incredibly heavy melee user I understand your concerns and arguments, however, a lot of the points you've brought up are pretty negligible or just downright wrong. You can still do block combos. My tempo royale stanced heavy blade zaw can and will attest to that.

There's actually 0 utility to bring able to aim glide with your melee or besides MAYBE some positioning advantages, and that's a hard maybe. 

The auto block is jarring sure but the best part about it is how busted it is at its current state. Sometimes you can get away with attacking and blocking at the same time which nets you free damage and energy (assuming you're running rage or hunter adrenaline). I don't mind it so much because I really only held block for combos (which you can still do mind you) and now I get more utility out of a feature that I rarely used before. Actually getting a proper Parry -> front finisher is pretty cool but void daddy forbid I sit there holding L2 with my thumb up my *** waiting for a butcher to hit me so I can do it. 

The weapon switching was also something I was very concerned about but after getting used to the new system I have to say I prefer this a lot more. Having to hold down triangle and wait a good second to put my gun away was a risk. That second or so could very well mean life or death. BUT NOW, if I'm getting my cheeks clapped I can INSTANTLY swap to my melee, pop channeling and life strike my way back to full health in about the same time it would take to swap my weapon with the old system. 

The primary/secondary buttons are still there (actually now there's two of them). 

Im pretty sure there is still a manual block button somewhere in the button map config but good luck trying to fit it somewhere. (Also you can still use block combos, don't remember if I mentioned that). 

If you want your melee permanently out then don't bring a gun. If you're bringing a firearm I'd assume you're using it at some point right? I'm addition to this, if you only equip a melee you still aim glide with your melee, so enjoy that mechanic. 

The new system is hardly different from the old one and if one tiny little change is going to cause this much of an upset with you then you don't deserve Warframe or DE. They work hard to bring you what they think is best for the future of the game and a lot of those decisions are heavily influenced by the feedback of the community. We can't always know where they're going to take things next or see their vision but I truly believe that DE has the player's best interest in mind. That being did, no matter what they put out someone is going to ***** and moan about it guaranteed (it just happened to be you in this case). 

Now I am sympathetic to your plight and would be more than happy to help you make adjustments to your controller configuration. If you've been playing as long as I have you'd know that on PS4 there used to be a drastically different button set up so that may be why you feel you've lost access to your block combos (which haven't gone anywhere, they are still in the game, dunno why you're acting like they removed them). Feel free to shoot me a message if you want to get things sorted and I really hope you change your mind about Warframe. Things are always going to be changing in this game and they don't always be what everyone wants, but I guarantee there's a higher purpose for everything DE does and we'll just have to see if those changes pan out. Sorry for the long read and have a nice day. 

 

Tl;dr

block combos still work 

Melee aim gliding is weird 

If you want permanent melee don't bring a gun

DE fan boy sure but I'm right so whatever. 

I'll help you adjust your control scheme for optimal melee performance 

Block combos still work

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Personally, the new melee is a lot better and more fun to work with. As someone that is fond of using melee, I don't think melee aim-glide is the best aesthetic when it comes to aim-glide. Especially with big melee weapons. It just looks off. 

 

Other than that, block combos feel stronger than ever and you don't need to waste time switching to your melee. Sure, you could have just used swap speed mods, but now you don't have to waste that mod slot on some crappy thing you do every now and then. Also, as a speedrunner, the quick melee is fun and useful to kill small-large groups of enemies without having to waste time reloading

 

Having that kind of view over something like this is kind of selfish. I would recommend just going and reading up the changes before you jump at DE's throat. And don't think I'm defending them. I genuinely hate DE *because of 1000 reasons*

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11 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

On the flipside, while this new system really hurts melee-only players, for me, as a player who would switch between weapons similar to what we have now, it augments my playstyle perfectly, and makes for some of the most fluid combat I have experienced.

I used to mix up melee and ranged combat, and the new system has ruined that for me. This is not some bug or omission, it's a fundamental consequence of this new, broken system.

  • I can't alt-fire after using melee. I need to explicitly press the aim button to bring the gun back out again. This is the opposite of fluid combat.
  • Syndicate procs rely on the gun being held to both charge up and to cool down again so that they can reset. This doesn't happen because, yet again, my sword has forced the gun out of my hands. Right-clicking after every single melee strike is not fluid. It's jarring and annoying.
  • Empty the magazine of your gun, and the reload process starts automatically. Except... this doesn't happen when that obnoxious #*!%ing sword refuses to get out of my hands when I'm done with it.
  • Good luck using the scanner, a mining laser or a fishing spear when there are enemies around. Your one form of combat like that is to stab things. Perfectly functional... except that you need to manually go and pull out the tool you were using if you want to actually get on with what it was you were doing. So very fluid and responsive.

Autoblocking is another huge problem. I don't want to block, I want to shoot my Redeemer. If I wanted to block, I'd press the... oh, right, you took that option away from me. Doubly so for travelling through the air after having sworded something. If I wanted to slow down and drift, I'd explicitly press the block button. Some times I do, other times I don't. But each time, the control should be in *my* hands, not because the game decided that it needs to get in my way again.

8 hours ago, Ced23Ric said:

the instant switch between gun and blade has allowed us to go into a blenderfest and come out blazing while we close the distance, and we're overall faster, use melee more as the hurdle of switching is gone,

I never had a problem with mixing melee and gunfire before. Quick melee was not only perfectly functional, it was far more functional than what we have now. Stance movesets are terrible. My movement should be dictated solely by what directional keys I'm pressing right now. Anything other than that should only ever be caused by direct enemy action (eg. explosions, shield bashes, etc.). If my own weapons are ignoring my WASD input, picking me up and hurling me in another direction or gluing me to the spot, they have basically become the enemy.

Switching was never a problem. Melee weapons worked perfectly well without having to go into dedicated melee mode. As far as I'm concerned, they worked better. Some disagreed, but that was the whole point of giving us the option of pulling out the sword. And now we no longer have that option and are stuck with the worst of both worlds.

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5 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

As far as I'm concerned, they worked better. And now we no longer have that option and are stuck with the worst of both worlds.

I disagree with the first part, but partially. Some stances are just garbage and need an overhaul. That being said, the last part, about being stuck, is thankfully a temporary situation. We'll get massive changes to stances where your directional inputs matter and change how stances behave. Press W makes you close the distance, standing still keeps you largely where you are, etc. Soon!

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yaknow people might listen to you if you don't act so hostile in the way you type your post?

anyway quick switch is pretty great but there are various issues, channeling, no manual block and right clicking messing up various things like valkyrs hysteria augment and combos

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4 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

I disagree with the first part, but partially. Some stances are just garbage and need an overhaul. That being said, the last part, about being stuck, is thankfully a temporary situation. We'll get massive changes to stances where your directional inputs matter and change how stances behave. Press W makes you close the distance, standing still keeps you largely where you are, etc. Soon!

That also looks terrible. If I want to move somewhere, I'll use WASD + sprint, crouch or jump as appropriate. The perfect melee moveset is one that behaves exactly the same regardless of which direction or speed I'm moving in. Polearms were a perfect example of this - you had the exact same swing pattern which did not do anything to your movement and which you could use while walking *and* sprinting. If I want to close the gap, I'd bullet jump. If I'm using movement keys, I'm either doing steady pursuit or trying to manoeuvre around the enemy. I don't want gap closer moves. Iron Phoenix (longswords) illustrates exactly why this is a horrible idea.

Movement in combat has (for me) 4 different states:

  • Stationary. Self-explanatory, hiding behind something large and stunned while you hit it with your sword).
  • Normal movement (WASD, no sprint key). Use to keep pace with a moving enemy or for circling around one.
  • Pursuit (WASD, sprint key active). Use when chasing fast enemies such as capture targets (which are inexplicably immune to every and all form of slowdown, knockdown or immobilisation) or something that's running away from you and has yet to stagger from an impact proc, also when moving between closely packed enemies which are just out of strike distance. Used more often than normal movement even on directly adjacent targets simply because the enemy will not likely be stunned by your attacks and you want to be able to get behind them quickly and stay there.
  • Bullet Jumping. Used when moving between clumps of enemies. Will almost always end with a spin attack when within reach so that the main slashing can begin without delay (aerial melee still has this inexplicable delay before I can swing again, it's no good)

The key point here is that I need to be able to change state with no advance warning (enemy might suddenly change direction or start running, incoming fire, etc.) and with as much control as possible (eg. enemy ahead of me on a narrow walkway, I want to get right to that enemy's position and no further). The latter point could easily be done by sprinting to them and letting go of the movement keys... but that won't work if you're saddled with these gap closer moves which launch you past the enemy and off the ledge.

Also, if this is indeed temporary, then it has gone incomprehensibly wrong. When you have a system which is currently broken which you plan to fix and make it universal, you fix it first. You don't make the broken system universal and then try to fix it later. That's fundamental procedure for any maintenance. I cannot even begin to understand why things were done this way, especially when I seem to recall that their initial plans were to roll it out in stages where each weapon type would have its attack patterns fixed and made universal in turn.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)turtletheblack said:

There's actually 0 utility to bring able to aim glide with your melee or besides MAYBE some positioning advantages, and that's a hard maybe.

Im pretty sure there is still a manual block button somewhere in the button map config but good luck trying to fit it somewhere. (Also you can still use block combos, don't remember if I mentioned that).

Melee aim gliding is weird 

First of all, block-gliding or melee aim-gliding (whatever you want to call it) allows you to glide without having to zoom in. It also positions you well for slam attacks. So, no, it isn't weird, and the fact that you say it is weird makes me think you aren't actually someone who ran with your melee out in Melee 2.0.

Second of all, if you actually were a big melee player, you'd have used your block often, and you'd know that there is no manual block button anymore.

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53 minutes ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

First of all, block-gliding or melee aim-gliding (whatever you want to call it) allows you to glide without having to zoom in. It also positions you well for slam attacks. So, no, it isn't weird, and the fact that you say it is weird makes me think you aren't actually someone who ran with your melee out in Melee 2.0.

Second of all, if you actually were a big melee player, you'd have used your block often, and you'd know that there is no manual block button anymore.

OK you have a valid point about the zoom in but there's still far more value by being able to shoot and slam attacks I don't really mess with. 

And of course I'm not gonna block when I could be attacking. If my build is set up to cover both offense and defense at the same time then why would I waste time defending when I could be killing? Best defense is a good offense and all that.

You're making some strange assumptions about my playstyle too which is pretty rude. If there isn't a block button setting anymore then I'm willing to rescind that statement, however, it doesn't invalidate my point that the block combos are still necessary. 

I am interested in what you used block for during the Era of melee 2.0 cause I also never did unless I was running a specific channeling build. 

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Ooohh nooo the manual block got removed and now the melee system is "utter garbage".A little exaggeration don't you think?

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Basically i liked the last years melee better then this one.

DE wanted that players move more while playing, instead they game the melee system that does just that encourages camping and not moving.

Sure i didn't look so "cool" with the old melee when you just coptering with a zaw or polearm ect. but it was effective and it didn't take the flow of the fight down to a crawl thru the mud like it is now. 

Change my mind. 

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I think to call it garbage and blame the new system for all your dissatisfaction is a bit intense but let me offer you my solution to the change. I play with controller on PC and it was annoying at first to adjust but you have to do just that, adjust. I used to switch to melee and use the triggers to attack (like any same person would) but now that's not as viable because reasons. So I now use the face button like it is by default, but I had to modify how I hold the controller. I keep my thumb on the stick and curl my pointer down to use the face button while using my middle finger to press the triggers when needed. That is my current solution and it looks/sounds/is dumb but it works.

Look, they aren't going to revert this change. And I can't see them coming out with a fix soon but if you want to keep playing like you used to, you need to adapt to the new system even if you disagree with it.

Also I didn't read your whole post because it was a #*!%ing novel so sorry if this solution has already been addressed and you are also dissatisfied with it. Can only do so much to help if you don't want to be helped.

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I like the easy and quick weapons switching, but I don't like the fact that things were taken away to add that system to the game. I used to play with melee weapons alot, now I have to avoid it because autoblocking = tons of effects on the screen = migraine attack. Then DE made a change so that equipping only melee enabled manual blocking and I was really happy... until I found out that it doesn't disbale autoblocking -.- I'm really hoping that when melee 3.0 is finally finished there would be some solution to the blocking situation.

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14 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

On the flipside, while this new system really hurts melee-only players, for me, as a player who would switch between weapons similar to what we have now, it augments my playstyle perfectly, and makes for some of the most fluid combat I have experienced.

I agree the new melee made things like Valkyrie's hysteria amazing. Now it properly turns off hysteria mid fight when you aim glide.  Can't imagine going back to old system where aim gliding did not turn off hysteria. 

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I had to log in to an account that I never use (because I converted over to pc) just to make the comment of:

Wow. Just, wow. Im not dogging you. But wow. 

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Oh boy, I can tell this thread is gonna be productive.

 

My thoughts? It needs work, but that's mostly in regards to the old systems which are in need of the update, not the limitations of the new system, with one distinct exception. There's a lot of stuff I want to see changed to make the system better and fit in with Warframe more, as well as some stuff that I'm very happy about, and something that the system doesn't particularly need IMO, but it would benefit from.

Stances need alteration, not just in terms of their inputs (which, fine, OK) but in terms of their mobility and fluidity. Give us true momentum, not this... set-distance dash stuff. I do believe in full-body animations on melee, but only to some degree. Generally speaking, the heavier the weapon, the less mobile it should be, but that's just weapon weightiness 101. That was always a problem however, but when melee was it's own separate system it was more or less acceptable since you pretty much 'got' into that state, but you could tell it predated movement 2.0 and was designed for the far less freeform motion the game encourages.

Quick switch is smooth as butter, and were the aforementioned melee move issues and a soon-to-be mentioned issue ironed out, would be absolutely perfect. In contrast to above, it perfectly suits Warframe's freeform combat style, enabling swift, brutal assaults and encourages use of your melee on top of your guns, thus rewarding good use of your full loadout. If only all weapon switching were like this, eh? Sure, the damage system doesn't complement that, but again, that's not the fault of the new system. I just love being able to pull off some Megaman Zero/DMC style stuff in Warframe's distinct combat style, and I would like to see that encouraged.

F***. Auto. Block. Of all the complaints with 2.75, this is the one I not only see most often, it's also the one I agree most with. And to demonstrate that I gave auto-block a chance, I had a large argument with someone about giving it a shot. But that was purely speculative, and now that I've personally had both systems? The new one is demonstrably worse. It interferes with aiming, it interferes with mid-air movement (which given that they've indicated they want to move into midair combat, is baffling) and it interferes with charge attacks. I understand the reasoning behind the system - passive protection to offset the inherent cost of getting in close for melee. But it doesn't work, especially since it screws with your main method of getting in close - parkour, thereby making it worse. I'd fix this by bringing back block, on 'aim', and having aim down sights be tied to a double-click of aim. Simple as.

Back to positives, new ground slam is very good. I don't really have much of an essay to add, but I really like it. I know a lot of people hate how it ragdolls enemies though, although it catapulting enemies away seems a bit hyperbolic in my experience. Worst I've had is maybe if I strike in a specific sweet-spot, but that's a pretty easy fix - aim a bit away. It's an AoE attack after all, might as well hit more enemies if hitting one makes things worse. For all we know that might have been intentional, but probably not.

Damage system, eesh. Again, relic of when 'sword alone' was the goal, and hilariously broken. Base damage is absolutely laughable across the board for a close-ranged weapon type (the base damage of the Gram Prime is equal to the base damage of the Mk-1 Strun.) but it has so many multipliers on top of multipliers as to be ludicrous. Base damage needs to be greatly increased, probably alongside keeping the stance multipliers, and in turn bring Condition Overload and Blood Rush in line. Because do we really need 100X multiplied damage, which is the kind of point that weapons can reach? And, in turn, how can DE possibly hope to make anything tanky when that's available?

As for the thing I'd really like but isn't necessary to make the new system work: more differences between weapon types. Especially considering the idea of stances having simplified and unified inputs (which I'm not too fond of right now, but whatever), there needs to be something that differentiates the different types. Shotguns feel different to semis feel different to snipers feel different to throwing weapons. There's not much that makes a Nikana feel different to a sword, aside from the stances - which we're losing. I would like weapon-type specific perks and traits, that encourage certain playstyles. Small buffs to certain move types or conditional buffs/status effects on other actions, even different behaviours of entire moves. We kind of have this with Sword and Shields right now, with the block for a buff thing they have. I'm thinking things like Nikanas building up power when sheathed that's released when you start using them, making for a kind of Iai style of combat - build up power over time, fighting with your guns, then unleash a powerful combo.

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2 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

I used to mix up melee and ranged combat, and the new system has ruined that for me. This is not some bug or omission, it's a fundamental consequence of this new, broken system.

  • I can't alt-fire after using melee. I need to explicitly press the aim button to bring the gun back out again. This is the opposite of fluid combat.
  • Syndicate procs rely on the gun being held to both charge up and to cool down again so that they can reset. This doesn't happen because, yet again, my sword has forced the gun out of my hands. Right-clicking after every single melee strike is not fluid. It's jarring and annoying.
  • Empty the magazine of your gun, and the reload process starts automatically. Except... this doesn't happen when that obnoxious #*!%ing sword refuses to get out of my hands when I'm done with it.
  • Good luck using the scanner, a mining laser or a fishing spear when there are enemies around. Your one form of combat like that is to stab things. Perfectly functional... except that you need to manually go and pull out the tool you were using if you want to actually get on with what it was you were doing. So very fluid and responsive.

Autoblocking is another huge problem. I don't want to block, I want to shoot my Redeemer. If I wanted to block, I'd press the... oh, right, you took that option away from me. Doubly so for travelling through the air after having sworded something. If I wanted to slow down and drift, I'd explicitly press the block button. Some times I do, other times I don't. But each time, the control should be in *my* hands, not because the game decided that it needs to get in my way again.

It sounds like you only used quick melee when mixing them up, I used everything, the gap closer combos, quick melee, every type of combo that would be useful. This system has made that so much easier. I've never had the reloading problem, ever, I still do the exact same thing I used to do, and everything works exactly when I want it to. Using alt fire can be a problem I guess, since using solely quick melee allowed that.

 I can't speak on the syndicate procs, since I never use any of the syndicate weapons, but that does sound like something that'll be fixed, and also a personal problem of using syndicate weapons that doesn't apply to any other set of weapons. 

Autoblocking is an issue for a lot of people, but I've never really found it gets in my way, I do want it to be changed though. When I'm in the air I normally have my gun out, autoblock doesn't interfere with me there, and when I'm on the ground it doesn't really activate often for me because of how I play, I'm never really just running straight at the enemy. As others have mentioned though, there is still a block button in the game, you just need to assign a key to it. The problem with that though is that it doesn't disable autoblocking.

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if you're going to throw a tantrum, boast about how much money you've spent like that means your preferences should be supported over others', and choose not to put this in feedback, then i believe the only thing really to say is "bye." bye!

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They said to complete this system as soon as they can. But here we care. Forced to wait again to finish it after tennocon.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)turtletheblack said:

OK you have a valid point about the zoom in but there's still far more value by being able to shoot and slam attacks I don't really mess with. 

And of course I'm not gonna block when I could be attacking. If my build is set up to cover both offense and defense at the same time then why would I waste time defending when I could be killing? Best defense is a good offense and all that.

You're making some strange assumptions about my playstyle too which is pretty rude. If there isn't a block button setting anymore then I'm willing to rescind that statement, however, it doesn't invalidate my point that the block combos are still necessary. 

I am interested in what you used block for during the Era of melee 2.0 cause I also never did unless I was running a specific channeling build. 

I used it primarily for blocking while running toward a target and for moving quickly across maps by block-gliding. Where most players use guns most of the time and use melee simply for slam attacks, I was the opposite. I would primarily run with my melee out, and would only use my gun if I needed to take out a flying target or when taking out Ghouls (since when you kill them, they release toxin). So, I was spending most of my time running with melee. Because of that, it was helpful to block-glide. And, then, I could slam attack quickly when gliding over an enemy without dealing with a zoomed-in screen. Blocking while running through the map is helpful for reducing the damage you take. You can make the determination on whether it is worth doing, but it does help, even if a little.

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These new changes make me feel like I have to rely on stats than anything else like a old RPG game. I left old RPG games like that a long time ago due to Warframe. The auto blocking don't happen constantly when you're attacked, the mega should just left alone.

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I don't understand how they thought removing holding melee to go big D was going to add to the fun of combat. Sure let regular melee with a weapon have some combos if you really want that but melee only mode added to the complexity of combat selections and that was good for gameplay and FUN. YOU HAD IT RIGHT BEFORE STEVE!!!! lol. 

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Omg I cannot agree more. The new melee system sucks. It's a step back, not forward.

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I love the changes that were made to the melee system, all we need is the stance revamps for better mobility during use and things would be grand. 

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