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Individual extraction is BS


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15 minutes ago, ninjacat2015 said:

F2P games far bigger than Warframe are using dedicated servers. League of Legends, Apex Legends, DotA 2, world of tanks etc. The technology is here for years now, almost all modern games use dedicated servers. P2P is an archaic system that does not belong in 2019.

There are two problems with the examples you're giving.

Those games are primarily PvP where latency can bring into question fairness of the game. Warframe is primarily PvE and doesn't really need to create a sort of level playing field between the host and clients as they're all working on the same team anyways. There is also a significant amount of complexity with all the added interactions, enemies, etc as a dedicated server for Warframe would need to handle the location, movement and logic of all entities within the game and the interaction from clients with said entities. This is in a pretty large contrast with many PvP games where you're mostly tracking the a few creeps in the jungle and some items on the floor while clients just give a set of instructions to the server.

The other issue is that those games run on fixed teams sizes. In a game of DotA 2 and League of Legends, you know there are going to be 10 players in every match for a large majority of playerbase. This makes allocating resources and estimating hardware usage much easier. In Warframe however, you can have rooms 1000 squads of 4 or 2000 squads of 2 so it's very difficult to estimate the required resource allocation. You don't want to pay an unsustainable sum to maintain servers that you don't make good use while going under will create a ton of problems.

This discussion always comes up every few months or so and the problems are always the same, regardless of whether is it 2016 or 2019. Dedicated servers will fix one problem and introduce others, it's not a magical solution that will solve all the problems and it may or may not be sustainable.

Edited by RX-3DR
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4 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

stuff

 Warframe is one of the most popular free games of all time on steam. Is on almost all consoles and even the switch.  They may have been struggling 5-7 years ago but that changed.  To act like they are some poor Indy company is kinda pushing it to extremes at this point. Every single platinum circulating around the economy was bought with hard eared cash aside from 50 free. Warframe economy is thriving. Jam packed zones. Always people online. Stuff sells so fast it is crazy.  2016 , 2017 and 2018 were record breaking years for profit for this game. I highly doubt they are starving to put food on the table.  The bottom line is the matchmaking is bad. It is out dated and probably the biggest problems that absolutely ruins the experience for the end user. 

There is no excuse. You are defending a company that makes hundreds of millions of dollars annually. It is time for them to put their money where their mouth is and fix what is most broken. That is the matchmaking. 

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22 hours ago, Ogarra_Remaellus said:

I love endless game modes, and the cooperation that they provided. You either lived or died together. That was cool. 

Individual extraction is a pain in the ass.

1. slower frames get left behind when someone decides its time to go.

2. people like me that have a S#&$ connection all the time and a slower laptop suffer terminal host migrations.

Game modes I loved are now nearly unplayable.

I disagree with your statement with exception to your second point. DE really needs to fix this.  It does negatively impact players if someone disconnects or decides to leave early.  Having host migrations poop out always stinks.  If you want a team that’ll stay for as long as you want though make your own team.  If you go with a bunch of randos you get what you invested in them.  

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I have to say individual extraction sucks but not because of the reasons OP said. It's because, say you're in a 1h survival and you want to leave. Oh, congratulations, now you are trying to extract while a HORDE of lvl 140 enemies try to kill you. Seriously. I spend the entire survival time looking for enemies, and I can never find as many enemies as I do when I am extracting. It's as if they suddenly stop focusing on ANY of my teammates and they all head onto extraction JUST to kill me. I mean, it ain't so bad if you could move, dodge, bullet jump and what not. But if you move when waiting for extraction, the timer will cancel itself. Meaning you're a stationary target, vulnerable, and you have to wait a whole god damn minute to extract...

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On 2019-05-27 at 1:54 AM, Ogarra_Remaellus said:

I love endless game modes, and the cooperation that they provided. You either lived or died together. That was cool. 

Individual extraction is a pain in the ass.

1. slower frames get left behind when someone decides its time to go.

2. people like me that have a S#&$ connection all the time and a slower laptop suffer terminal host migrations.

Game modes I loved are now nearly unplayable.

many users have asked for the ability to leave a mission without having entire team leave as someone might need to do something an dont want to miss out on the 2 or so hours they been in a survial.

survival, defection, excavation an open world maps. all unlimited time in a mission but now users cant be held hostage by the team an your complaining that DE putting in this mechanic was a bad move cause now users have choice to leave when they want. 

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21 hours ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

But it's okay that I lose all rewards because you as the host silently took off to extraction? Good to know

Keeping someone as hostage because you want to keep going is way more unethical than simply loosing a reward ,which you most probably won't loose mind you. Host migrations are more often than not successfull, besides you can use THE FREAKIN RECRUIT CHANNEL.

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8 hours ago, bananacat89 said:

 Warframe is one of the most popular free games of all time on steam. Is on almost all consoles and even the switch.  They may have been struggling 5-7 years ago but that changed.  To act like they are some poor Indy company is kinda pushing it to extremes at this point. Every single platinum circulating around the economy was bought with hard eared cash aside from 50 free. Warframe economy is thriving. Jam packed zones. Always people online. Stuff sells so fast it is crazy.  2016 , 2017 and 2018 were record breaking years for profit for this game. I highly doubt they are starving to put food on the table.  The bottom line is the matchmaking is bad. It is out dated and probably the biggest problems that absolutely ruins the experience for the end user. 

There is no excuse. You are defending a company that makes hundreds of millions of dollars annually. It is time for them to put their money where their mouth is and fix what is most broken. That is the matchmaking. 

ECCHO SEIRRA has a point though. The engine that runs this entire game is from 2013. Host migrations are annoying, but seriously how often do you loose connection after a host leaves? After 1300 hours into the game I've disconnected from my squad after a host migration... twice? Maybe three times. Perhaps you just need to upgrade your internet speed?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to never see a host migration again but be careful what you are asking for. Just throwing money at the problem wont necessarily help anything. After so many updates there would undoubtably be a lot of problems caused by switching to dedicated servers. DE would have to dedicate staff to fixing these new problems which would delay the release of new content. Some of these problems might never be fixed. At the end of the day we may end up wishing we were back to using P2P

Edited by OminousVortex
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10 hours ago, ninjacat2015 said:

F2P games far bigger than Warframe are using dedicated servers. League of Legends, Apex Legends, DotA 2, world of tanks etc. The technology is here for years now, almost all modern games use dedicated servers. P2P is an archaic system that does not belong in 2019.

>using examples of games bigger than warframe

 

9 hours ago, bananacat89 said:

 Warframe is one of the most popular free games of all time on steam. Is on almost all consoles and even the switch.  They may have been struggling 5-7 years ago but that changed.  To act like they are some poor Indy company is kinda pushing it to extremes at this point. Every single platinum circulating around the economy was bought with hard eared cash aside from 50 free. Warframe economy is thriving. Jam packed zones. Always people online. Stuff sells so fast it is crazy.  2016 , 2017 and 2018 were record breaking years for profit for this game. I highly doubt they are starving to put food on the table.  The bottom line is the matchmaking is bad. It is out dated and probably the biggest problems that absolutely ruins the experience for the end user. 

There is no excuse. You are defending a company that makes hundreds of millions of dollars annually. It is time for them to put their money where their mouth is and fix what is most broken. That is the matchmaking. 

Please tell me how you know they're making "hundreds of millions of dollars", tell me how much of those "hundreds of millions of dollars" are actual profit, and then tell me, like I said, how much the transition would cost, and then tell me how warframe is gonna make up for the lost revenue. Because I dount placating a few entitled ones (tm) on the forum would make them that much money.

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В 27.05.2019 в 21:54, Ced23Ric сказал:

"Just" is an interesting choice of words here.

I mean of course its way better to keep spending on another 100 cosmetics design, its not like host migrations affect dozens and thousands of players a day and week.

At least now you dont ***ing lose 40 minutes worth of rewards if you reconnect, but it could have been ten times better. Its also funny that games that never met any investers expectations like Anthem being an a** of a game and a dumpster fire have servers. And wf making more money with each year that passes dont. Priorities I gues. Time to make another cosmetics instead.

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On 2019-05-27 at 8:27 AM, z3roblade said:

You can't blame host migration on the players, blame it on DE. If they just switch to a server hosted squad, instead of p2p, all those problems go away. And at least half the bugs also, which seem to be directly caused by bad netcode and high/unstable ping.

I also fkn hate host migrations, but you can't force people to do what you want them to do. I certainly don't want to stay in an arbitration with 3 newbies, that constantly die, and try to carry them through.

There are so many bugs that dedicated hosts would fix you have to wonder if DE has bothered comparing the cost of the extra man hours of constantly applying new band-aids to their peer system versus the costs, and likely more customer retention, from going to a dedicated host.

 

10 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I'm tired of people acting like all DE has to do is pay another company 5 dollars, flip a few switches and BOOM. 100% awesome dedicated servers for all.

Well, the kludge-y fast way to do this would simply be to point the client at the IP of the servers using the existing net code.  That'd be pretty close to what you are describing as just flipping some switches.

The better way would be to build a dedicated server app and change the netcode over to that using existing net code libraries.  It'd take slightly longer, but still far less time than fixing everything that is broken with host migrations right now.

And hosting companies are cheap enough that even indie developers much smaller and less successful than DE can afford them.

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Well I have story from this morning about the new extraction...

 

We were in Arbitration and it was a Infested Survival...and right off the bat we got a Aura Forma and I was ready to go..but, then we found a nice spot to camp the infested and we all decided to stay since we had one Saryn, Two Nekros, and one Revenant and a whole lot space to murderize them....30 minutes in we only had one death in the Saryn and we were able to revive them and we are creeping up to the 40-50 minute mark and the Infested were aggro and hitting 117 levels and higher...

And I'm like: Any of us try leave now solo..they are dying at the exit waiting on the counter..So we all agreed to leave at the 60 minute mark so it would be a clean escape...And we all know how plans go right?

So at the 59 minute mark we bolt..picking thousands of endo and resources and garbage up from the floor below us and we run for the exit with a horde of Infested in the 150 right behind us..The Two Nekros reach the exit first and the clock starts..the revenant is in and there's the Saryn taking forever to get to us..and right behind her is a wall of toxic death...

and the clock runs out and all three of us extract...leaving the Saryn to face a Host Migration and the hoarde behind them....I was like ooooohhhhhh ouch...

 

Thank God I was one of the Nekros...

Moral of the Story is...get to the exit kids.... ASAP...

Edited by (PS4)FriendSharkey
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On 2019-05-27 at 9:54 AM, Ogarra_Remaellus said:

I love endless game modes, and the cooperation that they provided. You either lived or died together. That was cool. 

Individual extraction is a pain in the ass.

1. slower frames get left behind when someone decides its time to go.

2. people like me that have a S#&$ connection all the time and a slower laptop suffer terminal host migrations.

Game modes I loved are now nearly unplayable.

Fix your connection then , why you blame it on everyone else ?

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2 hours ago, OminousVortex said:

ECCHO SEIRRA has a point though. The engine that runs this entire game is from 2013. Host migrations are annoying, but seriously how often do you loose connection after a host leaves? After 1300 hours into the game I've disconnected from my squad after a host migration... twice? Maybe three times. Perhaps you just need to upgrade your internet speed?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to never see a host migration again but be careful what you are asking for. Just throwing money at the problem wont necessarily help anything. After so many updates there would undoubtably be a lot of problems caused by switching to dedicated servers. DE would have to dedicate staff to fixing these new problems which would delay the release of new content. Some of these problems might never be fixed. At the end of the day we may end up wishing we were back to using P2P

Alright, right after saying this I just had two missions in row that had a host migration around the 15 minute mark and I wound up back in my orbiter. Mission failed. There wasn't anybody waiting at extraction. Just a random host migration in the middle of the mission for no apparent reason. Twice in a row. FML

Edited by OminousVortex
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I think the timer ought to be lengthened. 

Just make it 50 seconds, like the 2 person extract timer in survival. Having to wait another 30 seconds to extract alone or with others isn't unreasonable.

Since this function has been implemented, I've seen quite a few players who clearly wanted to extract but just could not get there in time. 

Edited by (PS4)Quite_the_Cactus
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Its weird. I joined public eidolon bounty but the host left and therefore I was suddenly taken to cetus without any notification. 

Next time I ran eso group and tried to start but suddenly one person "left" and I got an error and returned to an orbiter. The mockery is that this person was alone in eso but we all were redirected to orbiters. 

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On 2019-05-27 at 10:51 AM, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Not to mention that HM is instant death in arbitrations every single time..

I'd also like a pop up or so that if the host is at extraction to teleport to him and leave with him.. because after 5 years going through that S#&$ I sure as hell leave with the host rather than risking losing my progress

Ditto it or an option to stick to hoast in the settings so that if the host leaves you do to that would prevent you from getting tricked in defense missions.  

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