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SonicSonedit

With upcoming pay-to-win & lootbox bill, will credits/resources/affinity boosters be outlawed?

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Warframe boosters do ease obtaining in-game rewards such as resources and especially traces. which allow you to farm more prime items via refined relics and sell them for plat for other players, as well as allowing to progress through game easier with affinity booster. They pretty much fall under pay-to-win mictoransaction of US bill now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYdq--Rpdu8t=285

So will they be removed / reworked? I personally don't engage in trading or any social activity except clan events, mostly play Warframe as singleplayer with coop game and not MMO, and therefore I find progress without booster awfully slow.

Sincerely, a concerned Tenno.

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 The worry is probably misguided. While the wording of the bill may seem to cover a huge breadth of different things in many games the reality is that it's just a beating stick to punish the worst offenders of a pretty vicious style of monetizing a game.

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Afaik there are no lootboxes like the way known, they are only boosters. You are not requiered to buy them in any way to progress. So they are not pay to win at all. So why the fuzz?

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Don't really see how boosters fit that bill. Boosters are multiple layers removed from the rewards, disrupting the addiction potential.

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3 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

Don't really see how boosters fit that bill. Boosters are multiple layers removed from the rewards, disrupting the addiction potential.

I'm looking it up again, but I recall something being said about how they classified things that speed up progress, as P2W for the purposes of this bill. Could be wrong, hence why I'm looking into it again.

Ah, here it is.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/btg035/under_the_new_antilootbox_bill_being_tossed/

 

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Considering you can get platinum in the game with ease without spending a cent? No. Warframe is fine.

I'll be very surprised if this bill passes though. There's a lot of incredibly rich people against the bill. Pay off the right people and it won't see the light of day, sadly.

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39 minutes ago, SonicSonedit said:

Warframe boosters do ease obtaining in-game rewards such as resources and especially traces. which allow you to farm more prime items via refined relics and sell them for plat for other players, as well as allowing to progress through game easier with affinity booster. They pretty much fall under pay-to-win mictoransaction of US bill now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYdq--Rpdu8t=285

So will they be removed / reworked? I personally don't engage in trading or any social activity except clan events, mostly play Warframe as singleplayer with coop game and not MMO, and therefore I find progress without booster awfully slow.

Sincerely, a concerned Tenno.

I don't think you understand what a loot box is.

Loot boxes are items you have to purchase, which offer a CHANCE to obtain rare / exclusive items, but which may also offer much more common items, that are obtainable simply by playing the game.

I'll give you an example from another game I play which DOES offer loot boxes - Armored Warfare.

They sell loot box bundles, offering players the chance to obtain rare and exclusive vehicles...or in some cases "blueprints" for vehicles - 100 are needed in order to "assemble" or acquire said vehicle.

You can buy them in bundles of anywhere from 10 to 100, typically costing €1 per loot box, though small discounts are offered, the more you buy.

However it is not uncommon for players to have to spend €200-300 in order to obtain the exclusive vehicles, because of the extremely low drop rates for vehicles / blueprints.

However, in order to prevent players feeling "ripped off" if they don't get the vehicles, the boxes typically award players a roughly equivalent value in insignias / boosters, credits & gold (AW equivalent of platinum).

 

This whole issue arose from players (particularly children) spending large sums of money to obtain rare items, with what is effectively a form of gambling...spending money in the HOPE of obtaining items. As opposed to a straightforward transaction, in which you simply pay for what you want.

In-game currency does not fall under this, nor do resource boosters or anything else that is readily available through playing the game...even if you can purchase or trade these items.

 

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15 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Considering you can get platinum in the game with ease without spending a cent? No. Warframe is fine.

Warframe is rated M, for Mature, aged 17 and up, and thusly squarely falls under the effects of this bill. If Warframe were to bump-up to AO, for Adult Only, they'd be rid of the law - and off of Switch and PS4, as neither support/allow AO games. That's the split to make - DE will either kill selling boosters in the US, or they will have to leave two platforms. Additionally, the EU will follow this example, one way or another.

2 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

In-game currency does not fall under this, nor do resource boosters or anything else that is readily available through playing the game...even if you can purchase or trade these items.

... with respect to an interactive digital entertainment product that, from the perspective of a reasonable user of the product, is a game offering a scoring system, a set of goals to achieve, a set of rewards, or a sense of interactive progression through the product’s content including but not limited to narrative progression—

(I) eases a user’s progression through content otherwise available within the game without the purchase of such transaction;

(II) assists a user in accomplishing an achievement within the game that can otherwise be accomplished without the purchase of such transaction;

(III) assists a user in receiving an award associated with the game that is otherwise available in association with the game without the purchase of such transaction;

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better to just wait and see if the bill passes, but considering this is happening in the US, where politics is run by money, I doubt it would actually go through. you can bet CEOs like Bobby Kotick and Andrew Wilson will be doing their damndest to prevent it from getting passed, because it would be a huge blow to their greedy business plans.

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Since it only boosts you affinity gain and you don't pay to get you affinity at once, I wouldn't call this pay to win, it's nothing more than pay to skip

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Electronic Arts, Acti-Blizz and many pay-to-win games will be devastated by this bill. Not so much Warframe as we don't have lootboxes that have overpowered mods/weapon locked content behind them as most of the things we can get (outside of insanely rare mods and cosemtics) can be grinded and traded in-game.

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32 minutes ago, DimosZargarda said:

Its a non competetive game, thers nothing to "win" by spending money

 

53 minutes ago, Dark_Chroma_Prime said:

Since it only boosts you affinity gain and you don't pay to get you affinity at once, I wouldn't call this pay to win, it's nothing more than pay to skip

Irrelevant what you think. The bill defines all forms of boosters that advance, assist or accelerate in-game progression, for achievements, items, story, or other goals as illegal. Boosters are P2W, as soon as this passes, by law.

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I hope the bill doesn't get passed at all. I would prefer making my own choises and deal with the AAA games on my own, than the goverment, that has no clue about gaming, make decisions for me. Warframe can be hold responsible for a "Pay to win" , because you could technically buy platium to purchase the best gear from the trade chat, but it is missguided to hold it against the publisher. The bills is very badly written and it is obvious, that the people who made it, don't understand the economy of the games.

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i cant say warframe is pay to win
but for sure its pay to progress faster

while u have other options of getting stuff u normally could buy with $ u have option to just buy ur progress faster
prime example of that is fact its kinda same mechanic like in browser and mobile games where u pay to get something faster like diamonds gold or energy

in ur or in my eyes it is not like u can trow 100$ into warframe and speed ur ass trough since u will still need to level up that stuff but it will let u bypass farming for many things of make farming faster

so if u look at it as someone who create law warframe will fall under that category of games which offers faster progress for money

difference is we just dont feel forced to pay because we want in fact play the game instead of just run trough it

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3 minutes ago, Lysithea.Nya said:

Isn't DE based in Canada and therefore unaffected by dumb US laws?

If DE wants to sell in the US, they need to abide by US laws. And these laws won't stay in the US, they'll propagate and expand. And consumer protection isn't necessarily 'dumb', either. If you read the bill, it's quite clear that experts in the matter have looked at systems in existence and cast a wide enough net to prevent loopholes and put up a bulwark against skinner boxes and other abusive systems that are currently willy-nilly monetized, while gambling is highly regulated.

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On 2019-05-27 at 1:41 PM, Highresist said:

I hope the bill doesn't get passed at all. I would prefer making my own choises and deal with the AAA games on my own, than the goverment, that has no clue about gaming, make decisions for me. Warframe can be hold responsible for a "Pay to win" , because you could technically buy platium to purchase the best gear from the trade chat, but it is missguided to hold it against the publisher. The bills is very badly written and it is obvious, that the people who made it, don't understand the economy of the games.

Well the thing is "Pay to Win", or even "Pay to Progress", isn't the same as gambling. You know what you are buying and what you will get for your money.

Loot boxes are much like re-rolling riven mods...you basically never know what you will end up with, until you open them.

Spending stupid sums of money on the best / OP gear is one thing...it just means you've got more money than sense.

 

However, luring gullible people (potentially children, or adults with gambling addictions) with loot boxes, is just utterly wrong. For one thing, you have to be at least 18 to gamble in most countries. Hence why there was such a stink over them in the US - I think in that specific case, it was related to some Star Wars games (Battlefront?) offering them.

The only reason rivens are justifiable is because it costs nothing to farm the resources required to re-roll them.

 

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Much like Maturity rating systems, a new system will need to be created so that standards can be established via review.

Until we have standards and each game is reviewed and given a classification, all this is just arm-chair lawyering on our part.

Warframe boosters don’t rise to the level of player gambling that loot-boxes invoke, but they absolutely are a monetized way to affect progression and influence spending habits.

 

I think it’s fair, because you don’t NEED them.  But it’s not up to me to determine their addictive potential and legality.

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5 hours ago, SonicSonedit said:

Warframe boosters do ease obtaining in-game rewards such as resources and especially traces. which allow you to farm more prime items via refined relics and sell them for plat for other players, as well as allowing to progress through game easier with affinity booster. They pretty much fall under pay-to-win mictoransaction of US bill now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYdq--Rpdu8t=285

So will they be removed / reworked? I personally don't engage in trading or any social activity except clan events, mostly play Warframe as singleplayer with coop game and not MMO, and therefore I find progress without booster awfully slow.

Sincerely, a concerned Tenno.

......being able to farm faster isn't P2W dude. P2W is getting an unfair advantage over other players who haven't payed.

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1 minute ago, Ephemiel said:

......being able to farm faster isn't P2W dude. P2W is getting an unfair advantage over other players who haven't payed.

That's been a debate for a long time, and if the law defines such boosters as habit-forming and addictive, and thusly on the level with gambling, it doesn't matter if it's P2W or nah - it'll be illegal.

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33 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

That's been a debate for a long time, and if the law defines such boosters as habit-forming and addictive, and thusly on the level with gambling, it doesn't matter if it's P2W or nah - it'll be illegal.

Just shows that these "experts" aren't the brightest minds on this field.
Sugar as example is much worse when it comes to habit forming or addictive behavior and nobody cares to pass meaningful laws because it makes a lot of money.
How about coupons? Why aren't they considered as bad when all you need to do is take a look at these crazy couponing people?
Laughable that they want to pass this law in the US right now while there are bigger problems around every corner.

In terms of WF it could also lead to the point that only US players can't buy or receive the "outlawed" goods while everyone else can still use them.

 

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6 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

I'll be very surprised if this bill passes though. There's a lot of incredibly rich people against the bill. Pay off the right people and it won't see the light of day, sadly.

^this^ 
and the entire bill feels like a PR stunt combined with minor threat remember elections are in next year and no politician can see past November

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12 minutes ago, Nesodos said:

Laughable that they want to pass this law in the US right now while there are bigger problems around every corner.

also true they should be working on a budget, tax reform, fixing the NFA so that it is not ineffective, election reform, term limits... while not dead last this bill is a waste of time and more than likely a PR move.  

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3 minutes ago, spirit_of_76 said:

^this^ 
and the entire bill feels like a PR stunt combined with minor threat remember elections are in next year and no politician can see past November

This is basically it in a nutshell.  The politicians always try to find a easy stance/topic to fight instead of using that time on something more worthwhile.  Video games just becomes the target about every 10 years or so.  

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