Demolyst is now just another immune HP sink

[Steel_Rook]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

How is this situation any different?  It's a DPS gear check.  The only things you can bring that are useful are buffers.  Do you have a buffer?  If so, you win.  If not, come back when you do.

That's true, and I'm not arguing that Disruption is perfect. However, a "DPS gear check" is a pretty broad concept. I managed to do the 4000 point event on my own using Inaros and an Opticore Vandal - hardly a particularly heavy DPS build. There's also a fair amount of gameplay involved that you can use to hedge your bets. The pulsing sound can be heard as soon as the Demolyst spawns, meaning you can meet it a substantial distance away and start mag-dumping into it early. That was the only reason I managed to make 4000 on my own, because my Opticore was NOT cutting it otherwise.

There are always going to be gear combos and team comps which make a mission type easier, obviously. That's kind of the point. I just don't feel any of them should render it trivial, which making Demolysts subject to hard control would do. I'm not opposed to letting players stop or slow down Demolysts in some fashion (you can actually physically stand in their way and cause them to attack you briefly), I'm just wary of making them entirely vulnerable to control effects. Plenty of Warframes have very powerful, long-duration control effects which entirely undermine the whole design of Disruption.

[TheBeastoftheNorth3952]

I find their immense hp to be fine, but I agree they should be affected by abilities to slow/blind them, etc.

[White_Matter]

I think it is a good thing that they are immune to certain abilities. With Nova's ultimate, they'd be way too easy to deal with.

Now it can actually get pretty stressful to bring them down at times, especially after a certain level. 

[NaoEthelia]

5 hours ago, Enialyx said:

So a few days ago, the demolyst could be slowed by Nova's molecular prime just fine.
Today, absolutely no effect.

Could we please stop with these immune HP sink bosses?

It cuts down variety from the game, directing players to use frames which merely buff themselves or the group.

@Steel_Rook @Walkampf @(PS4)robi191291 @Jivy @adry306 @z3roblade @undeas @Sahansral @SordidDreams @Ephemiel @bibmobello @White_Matter

Everyone, this is disingenuously false. I just tested it out with slow Nova and only Amalgam MOAs (not Satyr) are immune to abilities and thats only after you damage them to a certain point.

OP. Stop. Stop spreading lies unless you understand what you're talking about.

Edited May 27, 2019 by NaoEthelia

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, atejas said:

They're still vulnerable, they just periodically cast nullification bursts. They've always been like that.

 

1 hour ago, YazMatazO said:

There are different types of those. There is one that is really tanky and does nothing else than rush you down. Others try to do something else, some of them get status procs so you can do more damage with your redeemer. 

There actually is more variety there than this lets on. 

 

1 hour ago, lnfine said:

I believe nothing changed.

Demo does nulli pulses that strip all the bad stuff from it. It also gets adaptive resistance to powers.

It was the case in the first day too - I was running Nova, and demo was stripping M.Prime just fine. You just had a short window to abuse the damage multiplier and slow before the pulse.

I think even Lockdown eventually gets ineffective if you use it too much on demo.

The only thing I found Demo unable to outright strip with the nulli pulse is Peaceful Provocation because it's not a status effect in the classical sense. But I believe Demo still develops resistance to it's effect.

 

24 minutes ago, Satorroph said:

Except you can indeed affect demolysts with abilities?  They just have a periodic nully effect that cancels them early.  

That's very different from being outright immune.

 

7 minutes ago, NaoEthelia said:

Everyone, this is disingenuously false. I just tested it out with slow Nova and only Amalgam MOAs are immune to abilities and thats after you wipe their shields.

Stop. Stop spreading fake news unless you understand what you're talking about.

 

You guys don't get it. The point of this is not to complain about an actual problem and find a solution. The point is to complain about how terrible everything is, whether it's terrible or not. 

You notice how they just kept going, despite the fact that multiple people are pointing this out? 

 

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You guys don't get it. The point of this is not to complain about an actual problem and find a solution. The point is to complain about how terrible everything is, whether it's terrible or not. 

You notice how they just kept going, despite the fact that multiple people are pointing this out? 

It's buggy though.  I have had all of them seemingly at random ignore CC even between pulses.

[Steel_Rook]

3 minutes ago, NaoEthelia said:

OP. Stop. Stop spreading lies unless you understand what you're talking about.

Which exactly are the lies? I've not tested the Nova in the OP because I don't have that build, but I've tested an Inaros and a Garaa. None of Inaros' control effects affect any of the Demolyst, and Garaa's glass wall shatters shortly after a Demolyst makes contact with it. Yesterday, we found out that Mag's Counter Pulse seemed to affect all Demolyst Moas, but with the game mode being this new I'm not entirely sure what's intended and what isn't.

I know that Demolysts have a pulsing Nullifier aura on themselves, so it seems to me that they're designed to ignore Warframe abilities. My suspicion is that a lot of the more oddly-coded ones slipped through the cracks and will be addressed in future patches, but I'm working under the belief that the personal Nullifier aura is intended to make Demolysts effectively immune to abilities.

[Ryim_Drykeon]

Demolysts occasionally pulse out a red aura that quickly disappears, dispelling and disabling abilities similar to a Nullifier Crewman's shield but without duration/persistence and in red energy color.

Demolysts, when their shields are up, are immune to any status procs, and any damage over time effects such as Slash and Toxin procs affecting them while their shield is depleted will be erased when the shield regenerates a little bit.

If one bothered to ask, investigate, test, or just read the Wiki, one would know that the OP's statement is incorrect.

[lnfine]

17 минут назад, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 сказал:

It's buggy though.  I have had all of them seemingly at random ignore CC even between pulses.

I think it's not at random. Demo moa can enter berserker mode (when it starts rapidly healing). Demos in general seem to get diminishing returns on consecutive CC like some bosses.

Personally I found the best ways to legitimately CC Demos (not counting Loki and Hydro shenanigans) are Lockdown, Temporal Blast and Peaceful Provocation.

[Enialyx]

23 minutes ago, NaoEthelia said:

@Steel_Rook @Walkampf @(PS4)robi191291 @Jivy @adry306 @z3roblade @undeas @Sahansral @SordidDreams @Ephemiel @bibmobello @White_Matter

Everyone, this is disingenuously false. I just tested it out with slow Nova and only Amalgam MOAs (not Satyr) are immune to abilities and thats only after you damage them to a certain point.

OP. Stop. Stop spreading lies unless you understand what you're talking about.

How about you stop calling me a liar?

What I described was exactly what happened. Nova's Molecular Prime had zero effect on the demolyst.

Now, we can politely consider why this was so: 
Does the demolyst become rapidly immune to abilities?
Was it caught and slowed for two seconds while running towards the conduit?
Was it a bug, such as (PS4)Final_Dragon01 reported?
Was it entirely unaffected by design?

Beyond this, what Steel_Rook said also holds. The demolyst is largely immune to abilities. Some entirely, some 90%.

Thank the Janus Key it was still susceptible to Khora's entangle. For a few seconds, until with one demolyst "invalid target" began spamming.

[EmberStar]

Making more enemies immune to powers is just another gear check.  Except instead of bringing Warframes to slow them down (Nova, Vauban, Frost, Gara, Wisp, Volt, and anything else that can stun or entangle them) you just bring Chroma with a lolVex build.  And if you con't have a lolChroma, sucks to be you.  Good luck bringing them down before they blow themselves up.  Just like with every other "immune to powers" fight, such as the Eidolons, and Orb Mothers, and Wolf.  And more and more others that have been added lately.

Needing a Chroma and high damage weapon is still a gear check.  It's also tedious, boring, and it's a gimmick that's long past being uninteresting.  It seems to be what some people, possibly including the devs, have in mind when they want to be "challenged" though.

Fortunately for me, I got the new weapons in a single try of the Endurance mission, so I never have to do it again.

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, NaoEthelia said:

@Steel_Rook @Walkampf @(PS4)robi191291 @Jivy @adry306 @z3roblade @undeas @Sahansral @SordidDreams @Ephemiel @bibmobello @White_Matter

Everyone, this is disingenuously false. I just tested it out with slow Nova and only Amalgam MOAs (not Satyr) are immune to abilities and thats only after you damage them to a certain point.

OP. Stop. Stop spreading lies unless you understand what you're talking about.

Please pay more attention to what the people you're replying to are actually saying.

Edited May 27, 2019 by SordidDreams

[PhoenixFury]

Remember when we used guns to kill stuff?

[CaptainMinty]

My personal problems with the Demolyst come from just how much HP they have. A level 40 Demolyst can tank an immense amount of damage. Pouring into it with my Vectis Prime with Riven doesn't slow it down much at all. I'm not saying I should one-shot the thing, just that pouring more than 10 sniper rounds into an enemy is absurd. It's like that one orc. From LOTR. At Helms Deep.

Yeah that one.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

16 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

That's true, and I'm not arguing that Disruption is perfect. However, a "DPS gear check" is a pretty broad concept. I managed to do the 4000 point event on my own using Inaros and an Opticore Vandal - hardly a particularly heavy DPS build. There's also a fair amount of gameplay involved that you can use to hedge your bets. The pulsing sound can be heard as soon as the Demolyst spawns, meaning you can meet it a substantial distance away and start mag-dumping into it early. That was the only reason I managed to make 4000 on my own, because my Opticore was NOT cutting it otherwise.

There are always going to be gear combos and team comps which make a mission type easier, obviously. That's kind of the point. I just don't feel any of them should render it trivial, which making Demolysts subject to hard control would do. I'm not opposed to letting players stop or slow down Demolysts in some fashion (you can actually physically stand in their way and cause them to attack you briefly), I'm just wary of making them entirely vulnerable to control effects. Plenty of Warframes have very powerful, long-duration control effects which entirely undermine the whole design of Disruption.

My main is on PS4, but even using the trash gear I have on PC I was doing 80~90% of the damage to the Demos with most of the squads I ran mainly because I don't think people were really used to the mode yet.  I can only imagine what my tripped out Chroma and Rubico are going to do the demos when it hits on PS4.  I would argue the mode is already trivialized by DPS builds.

I don't think anyone thinks being able to permanently sleep spam them would be a good thing.  I think a lot of people are running into the bug where the pulse seems to activate once and become permanent.  Once the bug is fixed and they are semi-vulnerable again then I think you have a point.  However, I would still like a melee based counter that you can use to delay the explosion once they reach the console.

12 minutes ago, lnfine said:

I think it's not at random. Demo moa can enter berserker mode (when it starts rapidly healing). Demos in general seem to get diminishing returns on consecutive CC like some bosses.

Personally I found the best ways to legitimately CC Demos (not counting Loki and Hydro shenanigans) are Lockdown, Temporal Blast and Peaceful Provocation.

There does appear to be a bug though were the pulse bubble becomes permanent occasionally.  In such cases I have had my buffs stripped even though there was not a pulse when I was near it.  It's also not just a single type.  I've seen it happen to all of them.  I seriously doubt it's intended behavior.  You can see them use their abilities and tell when the pulse goes off.  This just kinda happens.

[Walkampf]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Cubic Clem:

Communicate and Warframe in the same sentence is something I barely heard in the 5 years I'm playing..

No one does this lol

Well, marking it is kinda communicating it's position.

Sure, not with words, but hey! Babysteps!

[Ikyr0]

Bro why do you need to make this game even easier lol? Just pay attention, stack statuses on it and blow up with a CO weapon.

To address your point, there's some finickiness with Slowas. I ran Amalgams all day yesterday. Some Demolysts were slowed by M. Prime, others weren't.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Ikyr0

[seprent]

i hear slash procs are all the rage with demolysts 

[Ryim_Drykeon]

40 minutes ago, Enialyx said:

What I described was exactly what happened. Nova's Molecular Prime had zero effect on the demolyst.

Now, we can politely consider why this was so: 
Does the demolyst become rapidly immune to abilities?
Was it caught and slowed for two seconds while running towards the conduit?
Was it a bug, such as (PS4)Final_Dragon01 reported?
Was it entirely unaffected by design? 

In order of your questions:

1) Yes. Temporarily. This is the design of this particular enemy. Even more so before their shields are dropped, and immunities return if the shields return (which removes the procs that were effecting them). Separate from the shields is the nullifying effect. This is supposed to be instant, and have no duration. Simply removing any effect on the Demolyst at that time.

2) Possibly. As with the answer to the previous, Molecular Prime could have effected the Demolyst and then been nullified. Again, this is by design.

3) Possibly. There have been numerous reports of the nullifiying aura becoming permanent. Though this should be on a case-by-case issue of each enemy Demolyst spawned. Not by mission, and not by frame, nor player. Recreating and isolating this bug to fix it may prove difficult. Most don't notice it because of how quickly the Demolysts die (or at least I've never seen it).

4) No. The Demolyst has a list of immunities, but Molecular Prime isn't one of them.

 

So either you ran into a bug (perhaps several times), or you timing is just very unlucky on when you cast your ability. But the Demolyst is not an Immune HP Sink. They tend to die fairly quickly to just normal weapons, making the use of abilities on them a moot point anyway. Though I did get bored and extracted after Wave 60, so they may scale harder at higher levels.

[bibmobello]

38 minutes ago, PhoenixFury said:

Remember when we used guns to kill stuff?

When melee didn't exist?

[(PSN)robi191291]

hace 1 hora, NaoEthelia dijo:

@Steel_Rook @Walkampf @(PS4)robi191291 @Jivy @adry306 @z3roblade @undeas @Sahansral @SordidDreams @Ephemiel @bibmobello @White_Matter

Everyone, this is disingenuously false. I just tested it out with slow Nova and only Amalgam MOAs (not Satyr) are immune to abilities and thats only after you damage them to a certain point.

OP. Stop. Stop spreading lies unless you understand what you're talking about.

I am not say that it´s not truth and i ok with your thoughts. But repeat at least i see sense in this case not in the rest of the enemies. It´s good no, like i say for long time the CC need a rework like many other things. 

But gonna be realistics DE is so focused in everything except that the people want, mods need a tweaks, DE pass, the enemies need a rework, DE pass, a lot of things need that DE put time in fixed it, but hey why DE gonna do that, if you say the op, and the people say that you are a hater, play other game...

This is the future of the game, 0 effort in the game, only in create hype with a new mindblowing expansion, that not change nothing in the game. 

I write and support much post about a lot of things that is doing the game frustating, at this point i don´t care, DE gonna ignore it like always. 

[bibmobello]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)robi191291 said:

I am not say that it´s not truth and i ok with your thoughts. But repeat at least i see sense in this case not in the rest of the enemies. It´s good no, like i say for long time the CC need a rework like many other things. 

But gonna be realistics DE is so focused in everything except that the people want, mods need a tweaks, DE pass, the enemies need a rework, DE pass, a lot of things need that DE put time in fixed it, but hey why DE gonna do that, if you say the op, and the people say that you are a hater, play other game...

This is the future of the game, 0 effort in the game, only in create hype with a new mindblowing expansion, that not change nothing in the game. 

I write and support much post about a lot of things that is doing the game frustating, at this point i don´t care, DE gonna ignore it like always. 

It 's faster to remake the whole game that changing every basic game mechanics.

[izgoose]

Couple things.

First, even if it's just a DPS check, what exactly is the problem with that? Damn near every game has a DPS check for some content, and this wouldn't be the first one in this game. Content with Sentients is all endgame content, so I'm not sure why it's unreasonable to expect people to be endgame viable and do a little bit of homework.

Second, it ISN'T just a DPS check, but a mechanic and a preparation check. Since they grow immune to damage types the same way Sentients do, you're expected as a group to bring different damage types so your DPS doesn't fall off. Additionally, the Demolysts let out a directional audio ping when they spawn that people are supposed to use to locate them more than a tile away, giving you all the time in the world to burn them down.

Finally, currently the game mode is a brand new one, basically being demoed in the form of an Operation. As with every other time when this happened, you can expect that there will be iteration and adjustment before it becomes a regular game mode that just shows up on the map and in rotations, so don't get too twisted up if it isn't 100% balanced right away.

[NaoEthelia]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Which exactly are the lies? I've not tested the Nova in the OP because I don't have that build, but I've tested an Inaros and a Garaa. None of Inaros' control effects affect any of the Demolyst, and Garaa's glass wall shatters shortly after a Demolyst makes contact with it. Yesterday, we found out that Mag's Counter Pulse seemed to affect all Demolyst Moas, but with the game mode being this new I'm not entirely sure what's intended and what isn't.

I know that Demolysts have a pulsing Nullifier aura on themselves, so it seems to me that they're designed to ignore Warframe abilities. My suspicion is that a lot of the more oddly-coded ones slipped through the cracks and will be addressed in future patches, but I'm working under the belief that the personal Nullifier aura is intended to make Demolysts effectively immune to abilities.

He claimed that Demolysts are absolutely not affected by Molecular Prime anymore. This is nothing short but false, and can be very easily confirmed in-game that Molecular Prime does work on every single Demolyst variants, save for Demolyst MOA and that's only after a threshold of their health bar have been damaged. 

The way Demolysts work is that they occasionally pulses out nullifying field, but contrary to popular belief this does not make them completely immune. Rather, they simply dispel all debuffs which any working CC can re-affect it immediately. This can be seen just as easily when using Nova's Molecular Prime where the ability re-affects the Demolyst several times without any hitch.

As for your other points: Stun-based CC does not work on Demolysts, which is why Inaros' CC doesn't work. Walls and obstructions such as Atlas and Gara actually works, however as they occasionally pulses out nullifying field, they get disabled in close proximity rendering them organically ineffective.

Edited May 27, 2019 by NaoEthelia

[dirtysmile]

Demolysts are easy enough if you locate them by sound early, and then waypoint them for your team. Never really had to rely on a Nova.