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Enialyx

Demolyst is now just another immune HP sink

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)robi191291 said:

I am not say that it´s not truth and i ok with your thoughts. But repeat at least i see sense in this case not in the rest of the enemies. It´s good no, like i say for long time the CC need a rework like many other things. 

But gonna be realistics DE is so focused in everything except that the people want, mods need a tweaks, DE pass, the enemies need a rework, DE pass, a lot of things need that DE put time in fixed it, but hey why DE gonna do that, if you say the op, and the people say that you are a hater, play other game...

This is the future of the game, 0 effort in the game, only in create hype with a new mindblowing expansion, that not change nothing in the game. 

I write and support much post about a lot of things that is doing the game frustating, at this point i don´t care, DE gonna ignore it like always. 

It 's faster to remake the whole game that changing every basic game mechanics.

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Couple things.

First, even if it's just a DPS check, what exactly is the problem with that? Damn near every game has a DPS check for some content, and this wouldn't be the first one in this game. Content with Sentients is all endgame content, so I'm not sure why it's unreasonable to expect people to be endgame viable and do a little bit of homework.

Second, it ISN'T just a DPS check, but a mechanic and a preparation check. Since they grow immune to damage types the same way Sentients do, you're expected as a group to bring different damage types so your DPS doesn't fall off. Additionally, the Demolysts let out a directional audio ping when they spawn that people are supposed to use to locate them more than a tile away, giving you all the time in the world to burn them down.

Finally, currently the game mode is a brand new one, basically being demoed in the form of an Operation. As with every other time when this happened, you can expect that there will be iteration and adjustment before it becomes a regular game mode that just shows up on the map and in rotations, so don't get too twisted up if it isn't 100% balanced right away.

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2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Which exactly are the lies? I've not tested the Nova in the OP because I don't have that build, but I've tested an Inaros and a Garaa. None of Inaros' control effects affect any of the Demolyst, and Garaa's glass wall shatters shortly after a Demolyst makes contact with it. Yesterday, we found out that Mag's Counter Pulse seemed to affect all Demolyst Moas, but with the game mode being this new I'm not entirely sure what's intended and what isn't.

I know that Demolysts have a pulsing Nullifier aura on themselves, so it seems to me that they're designed to ignore Warframe abilities. My suspicion is that a lot of the more oddly-coded ones slipped through the cracks and will be addressed in future patches, but I'm working under the belief that the personal Nullifier aura is intended to make Demolysts effectively immune to abilities.

He claimed that Demolysts are absolutely not affected by Molecular Prime anymore. This is nothing short but false, and can be very easily confirmed in-game that Molecular Prime does work on every single Demolyst variants, save for Demolyst MOA and that's only after a threshold of their health bar have been damaged. 

The way Demolysts work is that they occasionally pulses out nullifying field, but contrary to popular belief this does not make them completely immune. Rather, they simply dispel all debuffs which any working CC can re-affect it immediately. This can be seen just as easily when using Nova's Molecular Prime where the ability re-affects the Demolyst several times without any hitch.

As for your other points: Stun-based CC does not work on Demolysts, which is why Inaros' CC doesn't work. Walls and obstructions such as Atlas and Gara actually works, however as they occasionally pulses out nullifying field, they get disabled in close proximity rendering them organically ineffective.

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Demolysts are easy enough if you locate them by sound early, and then waypoint them for your team. Never really had to rely on a Nova.

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hace 13 minutos, bibmobello dijo:

It 's faster to remake the whole game that changing every basic game mechanics.

It´s more easy do something, that leave a problem persist in the time. But it´s DE, they prefer do nothing until the thing explode in their face. 

If they rework the enemies for example a demand for long time, and not the melee, probably the game will be better, and not continue with the same problem and the new. 

 

 

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I can't stand Demolysts shutting off my Exalted Blade if I am within 10 feet of them.  I don't want to use my weapon.  I want to use the Exalted Blade that my build is specced around.  

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4 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Good thing, you are a Dev at DE who can give as an insight, what abilities are supposed to do.

You actually got it backwards, Abilities whould have trivialised the game mode as a whole.

Also, no, it's not 'trivialising' abilites. You need to read up on the meaning of trivialise.

>someone isn’t a developer, implying it invalidates their feedback

Oh my..

>insult someone for typing ‘trivialize’ instead of ‘trivialise’

Oh myyyy...

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32 minutes ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

In order of your questions:

- snip -

3) Possibly. There have been numerous reports of the nullifiying aura becoming permanent. Though this should be on a case-by-case issue of each enemy Demolyst spawned. Not by mission, and not by frame, nor player. Recreating and isolating this bug to fix it may prove difficult. Most don't notice it because of how quickly the Demolysts die (or at least I've never seen it).

- snip -

So either you ran into a bug (perhaps several times), or you timing is just very unlucky on when you cast your ability. But the Demolyst is not an Immune HP Sink. They tend to die fairly quickly to just normal weapons, making the use of abilities on them a moot point anyway. Though I did get bored and extracted after Wave 60, so they may scale harder at higher levels.


Thank you for your polite answer. I'd wager it was the permanence bug, then.

Happened many times in a row, with different demolysts, during one run. Talked about it with the group, they reported immunities with other abilities too. Whole group left pretty fast after that.

Hopefully gets resolved fast !

spraying go away GIF

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1 hour ago, Enialyx said:


How about you stop calling me a liar?

What I described was exactly what happened. Nova's Molecular Prime had zero effect on the demolyst.

Now, we can politely consider why this was so: 
Does the demolyst become rapidly immune to abilities?
Was it caught and slowed for two seconds while running towards the conduit?
Was it a bug, such as (PS4)Final_Dragon01 reported?
Was it entirely unaffected by design?

concerned oprah winfrey GIF


Beyond this, what Steel_Rook said also holds. The demolyst is largely immune to abilities. Some entirely, some 90%.

Thank the Janus Key it was still susceptible to Khora's entangle. For a few seconds, until with one demolyst "invalid target" began spamming.

It intermittently pulses small Dispel / Nullifying AoEs that disable Warframe abilities. 

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1 hour ago, Enialyx said:

How about you stop calling me a liar?

What I described was exactly what happened. Nova's Molecular Prime had zero effect on the demolyst.

Molecular prime works on all Demolysts. What you described only applies to Demolyst MOA (out of four possible Demolysts), which total immunity only begins when you damage it past a certain point. The fact that the original post passed off one case of immunity as a whole is plain misleading.

1 hour ago, Enialyx said:

Now, we can politely consider why this was so: 
Does the demolyst become rapidly immune to abilities?
Was it caught and slowed for two seconds while running towards the conduit?
Was it a bug, such as (PS4)Final_Dragon01 reported?
Was it entirely unaffected by design?

concerned oprah winfrey GIF


Beyond this, what Steel_Rook said also holds. The demolyst is largely immune to abilities. Some entirely, some 90%.

Thank the Janus Key it was still susceptible to Khora's entangle. For a few seconds, until with one demolyst "invalid target" began spamming.

Q: Does the demolyst become rapidly immune to abilities?
A: No, they pulse out nullifying field occasionally. This only dispels abilities on himself and those around him (including your ability if you are close enough to be affected) and does not make himself fully immune.

Q: Was it caught and slowed for two seconds while running towards the conduit?
A: It is slowed for a few seconds until the dispel field but due to the nature of Molecular Prime, the ability immediately reapplies post-dispel and the re-application can last up to several times, so long as Nova's ability timer is still up (keep your distance to not caught in Demolyst's dispel field, in which case will dispel the entire ability).

Q: Was it a bug, such as (PS4)Final_Dragon01 reported?
A: Quite sure it's a bug. No way to confirm it but the majority of the time, the dispelling field only dispels abilities not cause permanent nullification.

Q: Was it entirely unaffected by design?
A: Certain abilities have different interactions. Stun-oriented abilities do not affect Demolysts themselves, but I believe someone who had done better study should answer this better: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/bsztro/a_study_on_amalgams_demolysts_and_their/

Q: Beyond this, what Steel_Rook said also holds. The demolyst is largely immune to abilities. Some entirely, some 90%.
A: I've replied this to Steel_Rook's post.

 

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1 minute ago, War said:

It intermittently pulses small Dispel / Nullifying AoEs that disable Warframe abilities. 


I don't think it's that. I molecular primed them many times when they were just next to me, with absolutely no effect.

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16 minutes ago, Enialyx said:


I don't think it's that. I molecular primed them many times when they were just next to me, with absolutely no effect.

This is the issue. When you are next to them, you are caught in the dispelling pulse. The dispelling pulse cancels all of your on-going abilities and also cleanses itself off any debuffs (including prime). Keep your distance and you can see that Molecular Prime re-applies immediately after dispelling.

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1 hour ago, NaoEthelia said:

As for your other points: Stun-based CC does not work on Demolysts, which is why Inaros' CC doesn't work. Walls and obstructions such as Atlas and Gara actually works, however as they occasionally pulses out nullifying field, they get disabled in close proximity rendering them organically ineffective.

It's weirdly inconsistent, probably the big that's been brought up before. I've had instances of hitting Demolysts with Dessication and them briefly stopping before they start running again and instances of hitting them without any effect. Different critters, incidentally, so no stacked resistances. I HAVE also had my Scarab Armour stripped from me by just brushing past them, as well. I do know that Mag's Counter Pulse augment definitely seems to affect the Demolyst Moas, though I don't know for how much of its duration. 2-3 seconds, certainly, which is a lot for an enemy that the team is going to be focus-firing on. They appear to have a very odd implementation right now, with seemingly quite a few omissions.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

My main is on PS4, but even using the trash gear I have on PC I was doing 80~90% of the damage to the Demos with most of the squads I ran mainly because I don't think people were really used to the mode yet.  I can only imagine what my tripped out Chroma and Rubico are going to do the demos when it hits on PS4.  I would argue the mode is already trivialized by DPS builds.

While that's true, it's still only true to a point. Unlike pretty much every end-game boss, Demolysts aren't actually made entirely of Alloy. Near as I can tell, they have negligible shields and either Robotic or Flesh health, so not necessarily always weak to Radiation + Puncture. I ended up bringing a Slash/Viral Twin Kohmak for the humanoids, though I'm not sure if Demolysts are affected by Status Effects (I would guess not). There's also the issue that it's not just a matter of mag-dumping into a lumbering target. These guys move fast, are hard to hit and REALLY need to be detected well before they have line of sight on your Conduit. Obviously, min/maxed guns might still wipe them clean, but I have a friend who has some of those and the level 70 Demolysts in the Operation were still taking a concerted effort to bring down.

While there is an aspect of a DPS gear check there, there's still quite a bit of playing the mode by its rules besides that. I'm not opposed to Demolysts being affected by control to SOME extent (as long as it's consistent, not random based on specific coding implementation and invisible Nullifier pulses) nor to alternate ways of slowing them down. Hell, being able to take a second swinging at me by physically standing in their way alone is a clever approach. I just worry about turning the game mode into a check of whether you have hard control or not.

 

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6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

While I agree with this in principle, Demolysts are a unique situation. They aren't just combat bosses, but rather suicide rushers. Being able to stop them in place essentially undermines their entire design. And considering the Demolysts are literally the only thing capable of destroying a Conduit in the time allotted, undermining them undermines the entire game mode. While that's not always a bad thing, making Demolysts vulnerable to control turns the entirety of Disruption into a gear check. Do you have hard control? If so, you win. If not, come back when you do.

I honestly don't see any way to make the Disruption game mode work without making Demolysts ability-immune. There are far too many ways to cheese them otherwise.

I would dare to say thats the point! Cheesing is the only thing that ensures-and I know this is a dirty word, so #*!% it-that content is "Fun". I understand even that DE wants us to have it hard, so the people griping for stuff to be challenging are kept quiet. I GET IT! 

 

But can't we all agree that this cycle of launch and day one nerfing is getting a bit... Repetitive? Its not even that I dislike the content. I LOVE THE NEW MODE! But I'm not sure if they even get what their doing anymore. Are we supposed to like this or not? Nova has been SHAT on so many times it is, in my humble opinion, disgusting. If Nova is that much a problem strip the frame out entirely if its not acceptable and give people the new one to make up for it.

Granted, I know this solves nothing. But why bother patching content day zero of its that big a problem. Strip them out, rework it, and give players the frames when their ready to fit the vision. Is it really this hard to understand that if its a problem, remove and solve it before things become out of control?

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I actually like the way the new gamemode works and I'm completely fine with the way it is. My only complaint is there's only one place, to play it (well after this event) and as such there's no level variation.

I think Demolysts are fine the way they are, it's the nodes fault for starting at a high level.

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6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

While I agree with this in principle, Demolysts are a unique situation. They aren't just combat bosses, but rather suicide rushers. Being able to stop them in place essentially undermines their entire design. And considering the Demolysts are literally the only thing capable of destroying a Conduit in the time allotted, undermining them undermines the entire game mode. While that's not always a bad thing, making Demolysts vulnerable to control turns the entirety of Disruption into a gear check. Do you have hard control? If so, you win. If not, come back when you do.

I honestly don't see any way to make the Disruption game mode work without making Demolysts ability-immune. There are far too many ways to cheese them otherwise.

Yea the thing is the entire objective of the mode is stopping the demolysts, if CC/damage received buffs won't work on them then what else can we do? Damage? That's it? I don't think streamlining the entire mode to be about damage and nothing else is a good thing. Imo every warframe ability should work in every situation (which doesn't necessarily mean viable/good, just that they actually happen instead of being deleted), presenting different results each. If an ability is too strong and makes something trivial then nerf that ability for that situation individually, don't just kill every frame with that sort of utility because of it, that's a terrible design choice.

Nova being able to slow down Demolysts is completely okay because by bringing Nova to a mode like that you're making a sacrifice to the team, yes she will weaken the demolysts but in return a squishy frame like that is incredibly hard to survive with against hordes of high level corpus. Isn't that the whole point of the game? Frames with more powerful abilities are more fragile and must be protected by their team while giving the team the upper hand? (Excluding busted frames like Mesa and Saryn) I honestly don't see how making certain frames straight up useless helps the game.

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How to balance OP Warframes? Just disable their abilities.

 

Ez balancing  0inetexcgsz11.jpg

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You can't go left and right at once, and a concession had to be made for the sake of the game mode: You can't have crowd control affect an enemy that is meant to rush towards an objective like a wrecking ball to make you fail the mission.

Either the Warframe's ability gets undermined by making the enemy inmmune, or the design of said specific enemy gets undermined if the Warframe can affect it.

Making 1 enemy immune out of a horde is the middle ground for compromise that allows a bit of both, particularly so if said enemy is meant to be a mini-boss. Otherwise it's pure cheese galore considering how WF players tend to play using the most optimized broken builds possible just because they can and want everything done under 3 minutes or its an "unreasonable" grind otherwise.

Squads would be nothing but Vauban + Nova + Sleep Equinox + Trinity in this game mode otherwise and we all know it.

Being put in check in small compromises is the only path forward for balance, and that's fine in my opinion.

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7 hours ago, Walkampf said:

You actually got it backwards, Abilities whould have trivialised the game mode as a whole.

A meta happens because it is the most reliable way to get the job done that people know about.

This event is not free from a meta. Making many abilities not work just shifts the meta to something that does work and it is still trivialized like anything that is repetitive will become.

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Most demos just nullify powers every few seconds, but are affected inbetween bursts.

 

The Moa demolyst will become totally immune to powers (including operator arcanes like lockdown) and status effects once it sticks its head in the ground, pulses green and starts regenerating.

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The game mode was THE chance to throw cc frames a bone, to give them an opportunity to shine again at least a bit. Double the demolist spawns but make them full cc-able. They still are tanky enough to last some time and get freed by nullifiers...

What‘s wrong with seeing more Nyx, Vauban and Mag?

But no, it‘s about damage again.

 

Rivens play a diabolical role here, too, but that‘s for another thread...

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Squads would be nothing but Vauban + Nova + Sleep Equinox + Trinity in this game mode otherwise and we all know it.

Being put in check in small compromises is the only path forward for balance, and that's fine in my opinion.

So instead, squads are nothing but lolVex Chroma for the insane burst damage, or Inaros/Rhino/Wukong to not die.  Hildryn at least isn't completely gutted, since she can Not Die by sucking shields off everything else, but she can't add anything to actually killing the demolyst either.  Nyx and Mag can, as usual, go soak their head because they're completely useless.  Just like in the Exploiter Orb fight, Profit Taker fight, Eidolons, and versus the Wolf.

Instead of having a large range of Warframes that can contribute and have fun, you really have ONE.  With the Super Tanky options as the B or D team, since only Chroma really adds anything against an enemy that can only be stopped by doing a million billion damage.  All of the other crowd control frames need not apply.

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I'm perfectly fine with the game mode as it is actually. 

It even became my favorite game mode of the whole game, because it rely on the squad mobility and coordination, not on time gate (survival), start with a decent level and scale fast in the endurance operation (i hope we'll be able to start at his level after the operation).

I would have find very boring to be able to cheeze this game mode with cc abilities, it would have remove all the depth of the kind of stressfull moment when the Demolyst come near the objective.

So i would say, GOOD job DE!

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24 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

So instead, squads are nothing but lolVex Chroma for the insane burst damage, or Inaros/Rhino/Wukong to not die.  Hildryn at least isn't completely gutted, since she can Not Die by sucking shields off everything else, but she can't add anything to actually killing the demolyst either.  Nyx and Mag can, as usual, go soak their head because they're completely useless.  Just like in the Exploiter Orb fight, Profit Taker fight, Eidolons, and versus the Wolf.

Instead of having a large range of Warframes that can contribute and have fun, you really have ONE.  With the Super Tanky options as the B or D team, since only Chroma really adds anything against an enemy that can only be stopped by doing a million billion damage.  All of the other crowd control frames need not apply.

If you are finding Choma is the only frame you can use to excel in Disruption, there's certainly a problem.

The problem being that you're relying on something completely unnecessary.

"Just find the Demolyst and start shooting" got me to 4000 points easily solo with no damage buffs, the only reason I stopped there was because I don't really care about Dojo trophies.

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Worst part is they regenerate health as you're shooting them so you can pour as much firepower into them and they just heal right back up.

I saw someone shoot one and have it near death only to shoot it again and its health shot right back up. All 4 of us where shooting it and this wasn't even late game. Some of them are buggy at best.

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