Demolyst is now just another immune HP sink

[Lancars]

1 minute ago, Alpha56 said:

That's actually the best part.

You must keep going.

We did. We where all focused on it and it just couldn't be stopped. CC and everything it was given a free pass to blow up the pylon. I'd which its health jump up and down so No that isn't the best part. Primary. Secondary. Melee nothing could stop it and it just annoyed me since everything else around it died so easily to our weapons but we couldn't stop the demo. Felt very cheated.

[Alpha56]

il y a 14 minutes, Lancars a dit :

We did. We where all focused on it and it just couldn't be stopped. CC and everything it was given a free pass to blow up the pylon. I'd which its health jump up and down so No that isn't the best part. Primary. Secondary. Melee nothing could stop it and it just annoyed me since everything else around it died so easily to our weapons but we couldn't stop the demo. Felt very cheated.

Well i actually find that funny when a Demolyst is given a free pass and blow up a pylon (something was wrong if he did that at a decent level), since it's his major objective.

Yes, the ennemies can win sometimes, but we forgot that, since we're too overpowered IMO.

We need difficulty and something exciting in the game and for me it's a good introduction.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Alpha56

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Making 1 enemy immune out of a horde is the middle ground for compromise that allows a bit of both, particularly so if said enemy is meant to be a mini-boss. Otherwise it's pure cheese galore considering how WF players tend to play using the most optimized broken builds possible just because they can and want everything done under 3 minutes or its an "unreasonable" grind otherwise.

Squads would be nothing but Vauban + Nova + Sleep Equinox + Trinity in this game mode otherwise and we all know it.

Being put in check in small compromises is the only path forward for balance, and that's fine in my opinion.

I don't think that's true.  I think the Edilon meta would show up here with harrow being responsible for chaining down the demos using his 1.  Then VoltChromeHarr forms their usual firing squad and vaporizes the poor thing.  Taking 4 CC frames would be a hell of a lot slower.

[Jarriaga]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

I don't think that's true.  I think the Edilon meta would show up here with harrow being responsible for chaining down the demos using his 1.  Then VoltChromeHarr forms their usual firing squad and vaporizes the poor thing.  Taking 4 CC frames would be a hell of a lot slower.

3 hours ago, EmberStar said:

So instead, squads are nothing but lolVex Chroma for the insane burst damage, or Inaros/Rhino/Wukong to not die.  Hildryn at least isn't completely gutted, since she can Not Die by sucking shields off everything else, but she can't add anything to actually killing the demolyst either.  Nyx and Mag can, as usual, go soak their head because they're completely useless.  Just like in the Exploiter Orb fight, Profit Taker fight, Eidolons, and versus the Wolf.

Instead of having a large range of Warframes that can contribute and have fun, you really have ONE.  With the Super Tanky options as the B or D team, since only Chroma really adds anything against an enemy that can only be stopped by doing a million billion damage.  All of the other crowd control frames need not apply.

I don't see the problem with needing high survivability in a tank vs tank game mode instead of going with glass cannons. There are other game modes for those other frames, and contrary to player belief, there is an intended use and purpose for each frame. If you need me to quote Rebecca on this again let me know.

I've seen too many Chroma and Harrow players die because of nullifiers due to their over reliance in abilities with no base stat mods in this game mode as to agree to your viewpoints. As they try to optimize this mode, they get thrown a new wrench in the form of a random debuff or nullifier consoles to the point those players don't pick up the console keys and let other players do it.

If they are oh so scared of a nullifier filed then I think the game mode is well balanced against cheese ability abuse. I like it. You don't. That's fine either way.

I'm one of those MR27 players asking for higher difficulty modes, and that will inevitably lead to game modes in which abilities are restrained or even standardized damage and defense stats are used, and that's fine by me at this level, and it's better than a game-wide nerf. 

How about we spice this up? Those like you are always saying why such design decisions are wrong, but you never, ever propose a solution to even attempt to control the cheese. Sure you can argue players will always find a way to cheese. That is true, but that's no excuse to give up trying and burning cheese bridges until the only way to cheese is so convoluted and inconvenient as to not even bother.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Jarriaga

[EmberStar]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't see the problem with needing high survivability in a tank vs tank game mode instead of going with glass cannons. There are other game modes for those other frames.

 

Really?  Which ones?  Because my favorite frames, Mag and Nyx, are very, very much NOT welcome to go fight an Eidolon, or Profit Taker, or the Wolf.  They're at a pretty big disadvantage against Exploiter, since their powers do *nothing* to her, and her damage and minions can kill them pretty easily.

So which modes are for them?  Because they sure don't feel wanted or welcome in the current "end game" meta.

[Jarriaga]

58 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Really?  Which ones?  Because my favorite frames, Mag and Nyx, are very, very much NOT welcome to go fight an Eidolon, or Profit Taker, or the Wolf.  They're at a pretty big disadvantage against Exploiter, since their powers do *nothing* to her, and her damage and minions can kill them pretty easily.

So which modes are for them?  Because they sure don't feel wanted or welcome in the current "end game" meta.

Defense, Interception, Mobile defense.

I'm sorry those are your favorite frames and you can't use them where you like, but the point still stands: Not every frame is meant to be viable in every game mode. Support frames are meant to be supporting, not killing. Again, do you need me to directly quote Rebecca on this?

Edited May 28, 2019 by Jarriaga

[EmberStar]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

 Again, do you need me to directly quote Rebecca on this?

Yes.  Yes, I do.  Citation required.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

Yes.  Yes, I do.  Citation required.

Sure thing.

On why DE nerfed Trinity link on 22.20.8:

For consistency, damage link abilities (Trinity, Nidus, Nekros) will no longer transmit self-damage, but you will still get the damage reduction. This is particularly relevant for the healer/support class of Trinity who had become the go-to DPS frame in addition to the intended support roles. The re-release of Mods like Aviator added to some clever but ultimately uncharacteristic roles for Trinity.

Direct link.

So as you see, there is an overton window of frame roles.  You can do everything you want with the frame you like within this window, but once you try to move outside this window it's either a nerf or a game mode in which your frame becomes a hindrance. This is also intentional so you can constantly change frames and use even the ones you don't like because they are meant to be doing something the frame you like is not meant to in close proximity. Unless DE has changed their minds after Rebecca made that statement then support frames are meant to be prioritize supporting other players over dealing damage.

And yes, you can argue there are DPS frames that can do both. They will get eventually nerfed to just DPS sooner or later. They'll make a game mode in which indiscriminate killing will make you fail the mission (Making Mesa players cause host migrations when they join), or a game mode in which there's a damage cap per player balancing things out, or an enemy that only takes damage from your weapon's base stats ignoring rivens and ability damage.

Part of the problem is that DE has allowed so much cheese over the years that when they do something about it, it becomes a problem when it should be the norm. Why on earth is Mesa allowed to even be selected in Melee-only sorties? Well, Steve said in past devstreams that they are working on an enemy that can only be killed with melee damage, making Mesa useless in such sorties. That's anti-cheese, and I like it. 

Sooner or later they will take small indirect hits that won't look like stat nerfs so the community doesn't rile up in flames. They are very aware that avoiding direct nerfs is the path of least resistance, so they add indirect nerfs that are specific to each game mode. Balance is coming. Slow. Gradual. Painful.  It comes in the name of anti-warframe measures.

That's all in the name of working towards a higher difficulty as requested by many players, and you can't have difficulty and cheese together. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Amoral_Support]

I mean....like i can CC entire maps with Limbo. If they didnt design the Demolysts like they had then the would have even more whinging about their game modes. The Demolysts arent that hard to kill with damage.

 

I think if they included Diminishing returns on abilities it would mean more at higher levels. At levels sub 100 i can wreck S#&$ with my Catchmoon alone. But if the mode required me to be judicious with my ability use by limiting effectiveness after extended uses that would be an interesting nuance. Rather than the usual dichotomy of Ability Spam v. No abilities whatsoever.

[EmberStar]

41 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Sure thing.

On why DE nerfed Trinity link on 22.20.8:

For consistency, damage link abilities (Trinity, Nidus, Nekros) will no longer transmit self-damage, but you will still get the damage reduction. This is particularly relevant for the healer/support class of Trinity who had become the go-to DPS frame in addition to the intended support roles. The re-release of Mods like Aviator added to some clever but ultimately uncharacteristic roles for Trinity.

 

If I cared enough to try to debate it, I'd point out that there's a difference between "players discovered an unintended combo that was allowing Trinity to deal absolutely insane amounts of damage so we had to fix it" and the current end boss meta of "35 or so of the 40 Warframes are completely useless, and most are seriously detrimental to even equip."  But then, you mention a couple of times that you want to see Mesa flat locked out of certain game modes, and I'm not completely sure you're kidding.

For the record, the last time I tried a "melee only" sortie Mesa worked just fine.  Because unless they've changed it, the mission condition only applies to *players.*  Enemies can shoot normally, and have no requirement to use melee if they don't feel like it.  And Mesa does actually have abilities besides Peacemaker.  Shooting Gallery still stuns enemies that get close to her, and a copy of it bounces between team mates.  And Shattershield greatly improves her durability.  Give her a decent melee weapon (which she does not suffer crippling drawbacks for using) and she can still wipe the floor with just about anything in a Sortie mission.  Peacemaker only seems "stupidly powerful" because it actually keeps being useful at all when enemy armor and HP scaling does completely nuts and a lot of other Warframes stop being able to damage them in the first place.

[Jarriaga]

30 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

If I cared enough to try to debate it, I'd point out that there's a difference between "players discovered an unintended combo that was allowing Trinity to deal absolutely insane amounts of damage so we had to fix it"

Isn't that the actual definition of cheese? I'd like to see you work around what is intended or not in that sentence considering how slow DE patches things out and the internal conversations you and I are not a part of.

On that point, preventing a Demolyst from getting close to the terminals because they are suspended, sleeping, or barely moving waiting to be killed can be easily added to that sentence to have this: "players discovered that immobilizing Demolysts until they die prevents them from failing the mission, so we had to fix".

And yes, I am serious about blocking Mesa from joining melee-only sorties. She has an ability that breaks the rules of a melee-only sortie, which are rules that are meant for the player to go melee-only. It's a loophole since you're not using a pistol, you're using an ability to break the rules of the mission to the point of absurdity. That is cheese. Pure, raw, rotten cheese.

DE won't just let you join the mission with Mesa and prevent you from using Peacemaker. So what do they do? They confirmed they are working on an enemy that will only take melee damage. That's a soft nerf for Mesa and you'll see less players using her in melee-only sorties, and DE is adding more and more of those soft nerfs that only apply to specific cheese scenarios with each big update in an effort to combat cheese defining cheese as abilities/combos that completely bypass the rules of the game mode you are playing, which is exactly my point as to why CC abilities don't work for long on Demolysts. The game mode takes priority over the frame, and you can't go left and right at once. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Highlord83]

12 hours ago, Walkampf said:

You aren't giving feedback, you are provocative and borderline toxic.

The tone makes the music, if you start of by being a #$&(%, you can't complain if people answer in kind.

Try playing less videogames and isntead try more actual socialising, since just as you are unable to grasp the concept of "trivialising", youa re unable to understand the meaning of "politness".

That's a mighty high horse you're sitting on there, tex. How about you keep your opinions to yourself until we decide to give on to you, eh?

[BahamutKaiser]

There's a lot of other things they could do instead, like make them show on radar further out, but as it stands, they are just another immune foe that reduces the variety of Warframes in rotation. They should retool how status effects work on priority targets as a whole, they should do something.

[Dragmod]

Not sure if a bug or not, but I've been having pretty good success with my Inaros and "pocket sand". With every demo besides the amalgam moa, they seem to lose their path finding for a bit if I manage to blind them. Have had a few that even forget about the consoles and start focusing on just me. Only problem I've been having is my Tigris Prime not doing any damage despite my burst damage being in the 40k+ range before crits. And yet, my zaw which only does a few hundred points of damage rips right through them. Starting to think if anything, they have a damage cap.

[Rhalick0]

yeah you arent allowed to cc with nova but magus lockdown is fine cause LOGIC!! And who gives a diarrhea if its periodic dispel or not, nova's worth goes down while a dps frame is doing dps.

The game is fine and DE cant do wrong adios comments are all we need.

[jfhsanseiIII]

16 hours ago, Enialyx said:

So a few days ago, the demolyst could be slowed by Nova's molecular prime just fine.
Today, absolutely no effect.

Could we please stop with these immune HP sink bosses?

It cuts down variety from the game, directing players to use frames which merely buff themselves or the group.

It’s there to create a challenge beyond the typical defense.  I quite like it as it makes players stay on their toes.  I actually applaud the idea.  It’s a challenging mode that can make even a well equipped team eat it if they’re not paying attention.  

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

4 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't see the problem with needing high survivability in a tank vs tank game mode instead of going with glass cannons. There are other game modes for those other frames, and contrary to player belief, there is an intended use and purpose for each frame. If you need me to quote Rebecca on this again let me know.

I've seen too many Chroma and Harrow players die because of nullifiers due to their over reliance in abilities with no base stat mods in this game mode as to agree to your viewpoints. As they try to optimize this mode, they get thrown a new wrench in the form of a random debuff or nullifier consoles to the point those players don't pick up the console keys and let other players do it.

If they are oh so scared of a nullifier filed then I think the game mode is well balanced against cheese ability abuse. I like it. You don't. That's fine either way.

I'm one of those MR27 players asking for higher difficulty modes, and that will inevitably lead to game modes in which abilities are restrained or even standardized damage and defense stats are used, and that's fine by me at this level, and it's better than a game-wide nerf. 

How about we spice this up? Those like you are always saying why such design decisions are wrong, but you never, ever propose a solution to even attempt to control the cheese. Sure you can argue players will always find a way to cheese. That is true, but that's no excuse to give up trying and burning cheese bridges until the only way to cheese is so convoluted and inconvenient as to not even bother.

I don't see why you quoted me.  My only point was that even if you allowed CC on Demos players would gravitate away from it because it's slower than raw DPS builds.  You don't address that anywhere.

And I already suggested multiple times adding a mechanic where Demos can be meleed away from the console when they are in the middle of exploding to delay the explosion for a bit.

As an overall point, having read your other posts, I don't want the game you want.  You want no abilities, capped damage, and bullet sponge bosses and call that 'difficulty'.  That already exists and it's called Destiny.  Valus Ta'aurc and his siege dancers are waiting for you on Mars.  It was not fun there and would not be fun here.

I'm also a 27 and want to see more difficult content, but I would rather see Dark Souls or DMC style content that requires skill rather than bullet sponges with damage buffs.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Personally I love this mode, we can finally speed up the rounds instead of waiting around. Loving going for long endurance runs in this event, nice job DE!

[kengxiaoju]

nova can slow it down if you are outside of nullification burst

[Jivy]

15 hours ago, NaoEthelia said:

  @Jivy 

y ping me ;-;

[KnightCole]

18 hours ago, Enialyx said:

So a few days ago, the demolyst could be slowed by Nova's molecular prime just fine.
Today, absolutely no effect.

Could we please stop with these immune HP sink bosses?

It cuts down variety from the game, directing players to use frames which merely buff themselves or the group.

 

Honestly, id like it if DE put more effort into their enemies, more than just 'more health, more armor and immune state....its not fun....

[Lancars]

8 hours ago, Alpha56 said:

Well i actually find that funny when a Demolyst is given a free pass and blow up a pylon (something was wrong if he did that at a decent level), since it's his major objective.

Yes, the ennemies can win sometimes, but we forgot that, since we're too overpowered IMO.

We need difficulty and something exciting in the game and for me it's a good introduction.

Yea but not difficulty where its walking around giving us the proverbial middle finger. There is difficulty and then false difficulty. Suddenly throwing in an invulnerable enemy like that doesn't mix things up it makes me wonder if i should bother due to no matter how hard i fight i will just fail. I know it's just one instance but this cannot become a mindset of adding in unkillable enemies that can ruin an objective.

Now an unkillable enemy chasing you through the level slowly is fine. Something like the Wolf of Saturn. Big slow moving menace that doesn't ruin your objective but gets in the way. But if he downs you in a group there needs to be a way to prevent you from being camped so your team can revive you.

[Toran]

The (general, not personal) problem I have with Demolyst is the fact that they exclude the majority of players.

You usually have a very short time to kill them and you need over-the-top peak-damage weapons to kill them, preferably with a decent Riven mod.

I had quite a few casual groups that were not able to kill them in time when I wasn't along.

Cheapest way at the moment would be maiming (or double-maiming with a Riven), wonder what it would be like in Melee 3.0... Not everybody has a kick-ass riven-modded sniper or shotgun at hand.

 

[Cosmic_Elf]

20 hours ago, Enialyx said:

So a few days ago, the demolyst could be slowed by Nova's molecular prime just fine.
Today, absolutely no effect.

Could we please stop with these immune HP sink bosses?

It cuts down variety from the game, directing players to use frames which merely buff themselves or the group.

Nova is my favourite frame to play... because of hearing about this, don't think I have anymore ambition to run the new game mode.. especially if I choose to run the mission solo on a day I just wish to be alone... and battle out against the game enemies 

[Doomclaaw]

Come back and talk to me when you main nekros and none of your abilities work in any boss lol.  His whole kit is cc...