Demolyst is now just another immune HP sink

[Chewarette]

21 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

While I agree with this in principle, Demolysts are a unique situation. They aren't just combat bosses, but rather suicide rushers. Being able to stop them in place essentially undermines their entire design. And considering the Demolysts are literally the only thing capable of destroying a Conduit in the time allotted, undermining them undermines the entire game mode. While that's not always a bad thing, making Demolysts vulnerable to control turns the entirety of Disruption into a gear check. Do you have hard control? If so, you win. If not, come back when you do.

I honestly don't see any way to make the Disruption game mode work without making Demolysts ability-immune. There are far too many ways to cheese them otherwise.

? And ?

Make them not immune to CC, double the points required to reach the trophies or whatever, and you'll anyway hit a limit when you'll be swarmed by nullifiers and amalgams level XXX.

Making the MAIN TARGET of these missions CC-immuned once again removes the "Control Warframes" from the pool of reasonable choices. ANY content with "immune" targets boils down to "lol pick Inaros/Chroma u nuub". I even tried Garuda and Mirage and both were completely unfun to use there.

If enemies are somehow controllable, the squishy and/or control frames can have a chance. If they're immune to everything, you'll HAVE TO pick something that can facetank everything. The amount of nullifiers in Disruption is already a pain in the ass for control-based warframes, the immune demolyst just kills them off. There is literally no point in picking Banshee, Mag, Harrow or Vauban unless you really enjoy having a hard time. On the other hand, if demolysts were controllable, you could pick up and actually benefit the team.

Look, I'm the kind of guy who'll run missions just for fun. You'll never see me running Disruptions ever again because that's unfun, either picking Meatbag or suffer through the whole mission with any squishy thing.

This mission type will be dead as soon as the event disappears. Until a mandatory weapon/warframe requiring some Hexenon, which will revive the game mode for two weeks for it to be forgotten again.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Chewarette

[JayB33]

Tether Grenade arcane from Little Duck in Fortuna stops Demolysts in their tracks last time I checked.

[Chaemyerelis]

Im sick of fights where enemies are immune to powers. It makes it harder to players who dont have arcanes or crazy op weapons modded out.

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, JayB33 said:

Tether Grenade arcane from Little Duck in Fortuna stops Demolysts in their tracks last time I checked.

true but it's pretty unreliable when there are a lot of other enemies around. Cause there is a solid chance that those grenades are goingto tether to everything but the Demolyst

[JayB33]

2 hours ago, Oreades said:

true but it's pretty unreliable when there are a lot of other enemies around. Cause there is a solid chance that those grenades are goingto tether to everything but the Demolyst

That's why the whole team should have them equipped, plus use frames that annihilate normal mobs as usual so that there isn't anything else around to get caught by the tether. Not to mention the fact that you can just keep spamming Void Dash and it will eventually get caught whatever happens.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

13 hours ago, Toran said:

The (general, not personal) problem I have with Demolyst is the fact that they exclude the majority of players.

You usually have a very short time to kill them and you need over-the-top peak-damage weapons to kill them, preferably with a decent Riven mod.

I had quite a few casual groups that were not able to kill them in time when I wasn't along.

Cheapest way at the moment would be maiming (or double-maiming with a Riven), wonder what it would be like in Melee 3.0... Not everybody has a kick-ass riven-modded sniper or shotgun at hand.

 

That's called progression.

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-05-27 at 8:07 AM, Enialyx said:

This trivializes warframe abilities.

Why are we even doing 5-forma warframe builds, if the only use for boosted abilities is to kill basic enemies? 
You can kill those with basic frames with zero forma.

Abilities should be available as tactical counters to specific problems. Exactly like in mastery rank tests. Now, it's just one immune hp sink after another.

The developers don't like when you find creative ways to solve problems... yes, I am still mad with the removal of environmental kills, they should just turn the game into a generic TPS with some parkour already since they seem to hate people using non-boosting abilities that much.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

The developers don't like when you find creative ways to solve problems... yes, I am still mad with the removal of environmental kills, they should just turn the game into a generic TPS with some parkour already since they seem to hate people using non-boosting abilities that much.

Biggest example of this is that nullifiers exist.

[SneakyErvin]

Gods forbid that they take away cheese skills so you actually need to listen for the Aladhu-V Akbar enemies as they come rushing.

Go and learn to be proactive instead of relying on cheese.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

So as usual...the playerbase demands challenge, but complains when it is given.

Bosses & Mini-Bosses are typically immune and/or resistant to Player powers/abilities in most games because it maintains the challenge.

Now, I am ALL for the hate against Nullifers as they are trash enemies/fodder. They are just annoying.

But bosses & mini-bosses should be immune to abilities. Borderlands even does this.

In Borderlands 2 Maya's Siren Super only does some damage to a boss, no levitation, no bonuses, etc. Just some damage that a gunshot could have done.

I'm going to be blunt here...

If players really want challenge in Warframe the  you need to accept Warframe implementing MMO rules & mechanics.

Bosses & Mini-Bosses will be immune aside from when their mechanics are fulfilled and damage windows are created.

Crowd Control, Support abilities that debuff/enfeebled are intended for trash mobs (monster of battle...the Warframe community refers to these as NPCs/enemies).

A boss & mini-boss can & should NEVER BE able to be CC'd, Stun Locked, Debuffed, & etc.

Why? Because it trivializes the encounter. Period.

The Wolf of Saturn Six is a SHINING example of this. When he jumped players he was over scaled in terms of stats (that was a problem), & his immune posse was cheap considering their molotov cocktails did more damage than the Wolf himself. However he was designed right in being immune to stuns, CC, knockdowns, & to some extent armor stripping (you could only strip 1 layer not all of it).

The Wolf of Saturn Six Assassination mission proved WHY Bosses must be immune.

Ash players could chain Fatal Teleport him, Garuda players 1 shotted him, Nova players slowed him till he was frozen in time, Harrow turned him into confetti in a single headshot, Valkyr killed him like he was a trash npc, & etc.

He wasn't even a boss as that point.

Games like Destiny, Diablo (bosses have diminished returns if the ability can even damage them/effect them as intended), Borderlands, Division, Elder Scrolls Online, Final Fantasy XIV all make bosses & mini-bosses immune, resistant, and/or have diminished returns (3 times then immune usually) because players will "cheese" the encounter.

The demolyst isn't immune, it dispels itself. Which indeed being merciful to be honest...

But as a mini-boss it's suppose to be a priority target, hard to kill, & not something that gets cheesed.

Anyone here who played Destiny (1 & 2) know that even player Supers don't work on most bosses/mini-bosses like they should, if at all.

Most Raid bosses are 100% immune to everything, and many Strike bosses are the same.

The few times player abilities did work it led to Bungie having to patch it out/add diminished returns, outright immunity, or only allowing 1 debuff at a time; because it trivialized the fight. (Melting Point + Viking Funeral + Shadowshot = Bosses rekt in seconds. If it was Solar Burn......well...the enemy was basically Thanos snapped.)

Players will find ways, hence why MMOs moved to mechanic based boss & mini-boss fights.

Players need to use their powers to defeat adds so focusing a boss isn't an issue. Players shouldn't expect to be able to wreck a boss in seconds. (The Loki teleport possible exploit is going to get patched. I'm calling it now.)

Edit:

Just an example of the MMO concept in practice...

Instead of wanting Nova to slow the Boss/Mini-Boss to a crawl...

Use Nova to slow the adds/trash enemies so the team can focus fire on the boss & burst it down before it reaches the terminal.

Edited May 29, 2019 by (PS4)Zero_029

[XaoGarrent]

On 2019-05-27 at 9:02 AM, Steel_Rook said:

making Demolysts vulnerable to control turns the entirety of Disruption into a gear check.

You've got this completely ass backward. The gear check is what you get when you have CC immune enemies. When you can use CC, debuffs, etc, there's at least more variety in what strategy can be employed. Without it, the game becomes strictly a DPS race, you either bring your highest damage frame loadout or you stay home. *That* is what a "gear check" looks like.

[Corvid]

15 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Without it, the game becomes strictly a DPS race, you either bring your highest damage frame loadout or you stay home. *That* is what a "gear check" looks like.

Strange. I got to 4000 points solo with a Zephyr, and not a single Demolyst has managed to detonate in any of my missions.

[XaoGarrent]

12 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Strange. I got to 4000 points solo with a Zephyr, and not a single Demolyst has managed to detonate in any of my missions.

There's a lot you're not saying here, so this statement is pretty much meaningless.

[Corvid]

48 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

There's a lot you're not saying here, so this statement is pretty much meaningless.

I got to the highest level that is expected of a player without needing a DPS-enhancing warframe. Anything beyond that is superfluous, and the game is not balanced around it.

[XaoGarrent]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

I got to the highest level that is expected of a player without needing a DPS-enhancing warframe. Anything beyond that is superfluous, and the game is not balanced around it.

This response changes nothing. If anything, it just demonstrates your skill at giving as little information as possible so you can't be corrected.

If that's the game you're going to play I really don't have time for you. Have fun with that.

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, XaoGarrent said:

This response changes nothing. If anything, it just demonstrates your skill at giving as little information as possible so you can't be corrected.

If that's the game you're going to play I really don't have time for you. Have fun with that.

Exactly which information is missing?

[Cyanist]

On 2019-05-27 at 4:11 PM, Jivy said:

i just think of them as these guys

I swear Disruption is heavily inspired by Mann versus Machine.

[DelusionalIndividual]

As a person who uses Limbo for defense type missions, can you feel the frustration coming from unknowingly thinking that your stasis would stop the demolyst or even the miniboss on thermia fractures, only to find out that the demolysts are immune to stasis (but not nova's molecular prime nor mesa's peacemaker and can be easily CC with Magus Lockdown) and the miniboss on Orb Vallis just shoots you while you're in the rift? 

Now you understand how limbo mains feel everytime an update hit >.>

[Xepthrichros]

https://www.guideoui.com/warframe-abilities-list-effect-demolysts-guide/

 

So does this article I found in a quick google search still apply? Or is it just blanket immunity now?

If the article's info still applies, I think I like these Demolysts. It means Demolysts interact with skills differently than other enemies, but the skills still have effect. Abilities still do damage. Abilities still do CC. But the damage may be lower, or the CC is shorter than what usually happens to fodder enemies. And I'd like to see similar mechanics on other new boss-type enemies in future. Where abilities still interact with the boss but in an altered way.

But if they are just immune to all abilities now after the patch, then. Ugh. Boring orb mother all over again. Why even bother calling your game Warframe if the Warframe does nothing. Might as well call it Call of Duty in Spaaaaaaace.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Steel_Rook]

5 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

You've got this completely ass backward. The gear check is what you get when you have CC immune enemies. When you can use CC, debuffs, etc, there's at least more variety in what strategy can be employed. Without it, the game becomes strictly a DPS race, you either bring your highest damage frame loadout or you stay home. *That* is what a "gear check" looks like.

Strongly disagree. A game mode built around stopping an enemy before they reach a point in space which allows players to hard-control said enemy is the gear check. It's the obvious correct way to play it, with everything else being ineffective and obviously wrong. While you CAN play such a hypothetical game mode without bringing hard control, there's no logical reason to do so. I have the same criticism towards the Defence mission type, in that there's no real reason to not bring one of the, like, three Warframes with hard barriers.

And again - there's more to the game mode than dumping damage into a stationary target. Detecting the target early, finding them while they're still far from the objective and engaging them ahead of time matters I'd argue more than raw DPS. It rewards attention, mobility and appropriate reactions. Hard control removes all of these things by simply allowing you to sit on the Conduit and wait for the Demolyst to show up, then slap them with a hold and burn them down. Demolysts aren't Wolf.

[Jarriaga]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

So as usual...the playerbase demands challenge, but complains when it is given.

Bosses & Mini-Bosses are typically immune and/or resistant to Player powers/abilities in most games because it maintains the challenge.

Now, I am ALL for the hate against Nullifers as they are trash enemies/fodder. They are just annoying.

But bosses & mini-bosses should be immune to abilities. Borderlands even does this.

In Borderlands 2 Maya's Siren Super only does some damage to a boss, no levitation, no bonuses, etc. Just some damage that a gunshot could have done.

I'm going to be blunt here...

If players really want challenge in Warframe the  you need to accept Warframe implementing MMO rules & mechanics.

Bosses & Mini-Bosses will be immune aside from when their mechanics are fulfilled and damage windows are created.

Crowd Control, Support abilities that debuff/enfeebled are intended for trash mobs (monster of battle...the Warframe community refers to these as NPCs/enemies).

A boss & mini-boss can & should NEVER BE able to be CC'd, Stun Locked, Debuffed, & etc.

Why? Because it trivializes the encounter. Period.

The Wolf of Saturn Six is a SHINING example of this. When he jumped players he was over scaled in terms of stats (that was a problem), & his immune posse was cheap considering their molotov cocktails did more damage than the Wolf himself. However he was designed right in being immune to stuns, CC, knockdowns, & to some extent armor stripping (you could only strip 1 layer not all of it).

The Wolf of Saturn Six Assassination mission proved WHY Bosses must be immune.

Ash players could chain Fatal Teleport him, Garuda players 1 shotted him, Nova players slowed him till he was frozen in time, Harrow turned him into confetti in a single headshot, Valkyr killed him like he was a trash npc, & etc.

He wasn't even a boss as that point.

Games like Destiny, Diablo (bosses have diminished returns if the ability can even damage them/effect them as intended), Borderlands, Division, Elder Scrolls Online, Final Fantasy XIV all make bosses & mini-bosses immune, resistant, and/or have diminished returns (3 times then immune usually) because players will "cheese" the encounter.

The demolyst isn't immune, it dispels itself. Which indeed being merciful to be honest...

But as a mini-boss it's suppose to be a priority target, hard to kill, & not something that gets cheesed.

Anyone here who played Destiny (1 & 2) know that even player Supers don't work on most bosses/mini-bosses like they should, if at all.

Most Raid bosses are 100% immune to everything, and many Strike bosses are the same.

The few times player abilities did work it led to Bungie having to patch it out/add diminished returns, outright immunity, or only allowing 1 debuff at a time; because it trivialized the fight. (Melting Point + Viking Funeral + Shadowshot = Bosses rekt in seconds. If it was Solar Burn......well...the enemy was basically Thanos snapped.)

Players will find ways, hence why MMOs moved to mechanic based boss & mini-boss fights.

Players need to use their powers to defeat adds so focusing a boss isn't an issue. Players shouldn't expect to be able to wreck a boss in seconds. (The Loki teleport possible exploit is going to get patched. I'm calling it now.)

Edit:

Just an example of the MMO concept in practice...

Instead of wanting Nova to slow the Boss/Mini-Boss to a crawl...

Use Nova to slow the adds/trash enemies so the team can focus fire on the boss & burst it down before it reaches the terminal.

Agreed. Particularly so with the statement of wanting difficulty but complaining when they get it. It's always labeled an "artificial difficulty" without providing an example of what "actual" difficulty would be and how it would be applied to their favorite frame of choice. They also tend to provide examples of difficulty in games that bear no relation to Warframe's horde gameplay by giving SoulsBorne examples of "actual" difficulty while ignoring that Warframe is more like Dynasty Warriors and can't follow the same approach by design.

Bosses and mini-bosses should prevent cheese. Indeed, they are not trash mods and you should not be able to deal with them the same way and with the same ease as you deal with trash mods. That inevitably leads to some abilities not working, or a duration/damage cap.

Your Wolf example is spot-on. The tactical alert Wolf was a joke you could one-shot with abilities. That's not a boss at that point. it's just a higher-leveled cannon fodder enemy. Might as well replace Grineer Butchers with Wolf hordes since you're effectively killing them the same way. You can't go left and right at once. The boss gets undermined if you can kill it/control it like cannon fodder.

EDIT:

Hotfix 25.0.6: Fixed Loki being able to Switch Teleport enemy Demolysts/VIPs into pits and kill them instantly. VIPs are now teleported to safety if placed into a pit.

There you go folks. If this doesn't say loud and clear that boss-type enemies should not be disposed of/handled/trivialized as easily as regular cannon fodder enemies then this discussion is meaningless due to incompatible points of view with no middle ground if you believe otherwise.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Jarriaga

[War]

On 2019-05-27 at 1:05 PM, Enialyx said:

I don't think it's that. I molecular primed them many times when they were just next to me, with absolutely no effect.

I know for a fact it is a form of Dispel. I’ve carried at least a dozen individual players through this game mode on Friends or Invite Only (not all of them on this profile) - not sure how much information is on the wiki but they have a tiny red pulse every few seconds, about as quick or sometimes quicker than Stalker.

There’s also a variant that can spawn with a nullifying AoE as others in this thread have mentioned - I don’t think its VFX are as noticeable as a Nullifier, but it would explain some uh.. ‘hiccups’ I was experiencing like my abilities being removed faster than normal or gone completely like yours.

Unrelated - The ‘speedy’ variant Demolysts with an enemy speed buff are terrifying. hehe xd

Edited May 31, 2019 by War
the D

[ZeroBladeTV]

On 2019-05-29 at 8:40 AM, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Bosses & Mini-Bosses are typically immune and/or resistant to Player powers/abilities in most games because it maintains the challenge.

Standing in front of it, not even moving, while just pumping the LMB is a challenge nowadays?

[JackHargreav]

They aren't really too much of a problem. I only hate them because it's hard to spot them sometimes and all of a sudden the defense target is destroyed. But than again even this doesn't happen that frequently.

[SneakyErvin]

25 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

They aren't really too much of a problem. I only hate them because it's hard to spot them sometimes and all of a sudden the defense target is destroyed. But than again even this doesn't happen that frequently.

Always follow the sound, that is the easiest way to track them down.