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ThumpumGood

Maroo's - the Tasmanian cluster... Needs to be moved

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It's really getting bad. 10 people standing in front of Maroo and you end up hitting trade with some one instead of Maroo. Cant we get her moved to the back?

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I think it'd make more sense for DE to simply put a small circle around her, or give her an area where players cannot set up trade in. Simply moving her will only cause players to swarm her there, if they're doing it intentionally.

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13 minutes ago, ThumpumGood said:

It's really getting bad. 10 people standing in front of Maroo and you end up hitting trade with some one instead of Maroo. Cant we get her moved to the back?

Never had this issue even with 20-30 people around her.

it would not solve the issue of people still going to her, even if you moved her up the top floor or the far back of her station.

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How about just add an actual player market/auction house?

 

DE could make all trades safe and secure that way, and they'd even be able to siphon off a small bit of plat as a trade listing 'tax' that would also serve to keep people from using the auction house as storage space (ie. listing a weapon for sale at a price nobody would actually pay).

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People are doing it on purpose, moving her wont fix it.  Just give her a dead zone that doesn't let players advertise in or have her interaction started via the ESC menu. 

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1 minute ago, Xavori said:

How about just add an actual player market/auction house?

 

DE could make all trades safe and secure that way, and they'd even be able to siphon off a small bit of plat as a trade listing 'tax' that would also serve to keep people from using the auction house as storage space (ie. listing a weapon for sale at a price nobody would actually pay).

I'm not going to get into this topic, as it's been beaten to death already but consider this.

Think of what would happen if the Riven Mafia got hold of this "Auction House"?

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In my opinion Maroo should be moved to normal relays in the first place. She doesn't need one whole relay for herself.

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1 hour ago, Zahnny said:

I'm not going to get into this topic, as it's been beaten to death already but consider this.

Think of what would happen if the Riven Mafia got hold of this "Auction House"?

You mean "nothing," right?

There are simply too many players generating too many items for anyone to manipulate the market provided everyone can easily participate in it.  The only reason the riven mafia was ever a thing is that the riven market is a tiny fraction of actual rivens and that not every player even bothers making much effort buying or selling rivens because of how much of a pain it is.

DE's business model is definitely helped by player trading.  Free to play players are valuable because they generate items that paying players will buy.  You'd think that maximizing that income stream would be a priority, but...this is kinda what happens with a lot of indie game developers who aren't actually indie business developers 😉

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4 hours ago, Xavori said:

You mean "nothing," right?

There are simply too many players generating too many items for anyone to manipulate the market provided everyone can easily participate in it.  The only reason the riven mafia was ever a thing is that the riven market is a tiny fraction of actual rivens and that not every player even bothers making much effort buying or selling rivens because of how much of a pain it is.

DE's business model is definitely helped by player trading.  Free to play players are valuable because they generate items that paying players will buy.  You'd think that maximizing that income stream would be a priority, but...this is kinda what happens with a lot of indie game developers who aren't actually indie business developers 😉

Yeah, no. You're not even close to right. The majority of items in this game have no significant repeat demand, you build it once and you're done. 

You wouldn't increase the number of buyers, only the number of sellers with an auction house system. That means increasing competition without increasing demand, so prices for most common items will crash and burn. 

Literally the only thing that will be worth a significant amount of plat is stuff that's brand new which never lasts as we can already see, or something that is very unique, like a particularly good riven. 

And no the crashing prices won't help to create more buyers, because the majority will be unable to earn any substantial amount of plat from selling their regular items due to the crashed prices. 

 

So, thank you very much for your suggestion, but until you have a better understanding of economic principles, please refrain from throwing your support behind such ridiculously bad ideas. 

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3 hours ago, OminousVortex said:

Wait... people still trade in Maroo's bazaar?

You won’t believe the kind of deals you can make there

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6 hours ago, Xavori said:

You mean "nothing," right?

There are simply too many players generating too many items for anyone to manipulate the market provided everyone can easily participate in it.  The only reason the riven mafia was ever a thing is that the riven market is a tiny fraction of actual rivens and that not every player even bothers making much effort buying or selling rivens because of how much of a pain it is.

DE's business model is definitely helped by player trading.  Free to play players are valuable because they generate items that paying players will buy.  You'd think that maximizing that income stream would be a priority, but...this is kinda what happens with a lot of indie game developers who aren't actually indie business developers 😉

If we made an auction house plat will become worthless overtime naturally if there is always someone willing to sell lower

For rivens there will be only god rolls and 1p trash

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Y'all crack me up with your 'arguments' against having an in-game market.

Let's answer the obvious big one:  warframe.market riven.market

There are already 3rd party sites filling the gap that DE should have handled themselves.  By allowing 3rd parties to run the market, DE has left their users exposed to unscrupulous actors.  So far, these sites haven't gotten malicious, but there is no guarantee that won't change in the future.

On top of that, DE is basically leaving money on the table.  The trading tax I mentioned as a way to prevent people from using market listings as storage space effectively siphons some plat out of the system.  The market definitely needs that type of system to go along with the other things that take plat back out of the system.

As for your complaints that, "If everyone starts selling everything, things will crater in price" or "plat will be worthless" or "my dog at my economics 101 homework so I have no idea what I'm talking about" and so on...

Yup.  In the short term, prices would absolutely crash as people finally started selling all the junk they've collected.  Thing is, that's already happening on warframe.market. 

Right this second, you can buy the full Mirage Prime set for 30 platinum.  Not because she's a bad warframe.  She's a very good DPS frame.  However, she's been unvaulted for a long time and pretty much everyone that wants her, has her.  Add in that the number of new Mirage Prime sets being created in the game as people open relics is vastly outpacing the number of new players joining Warframe, and it's no surprise that even a good frame has seen it's price drop so drastically.

That is what is supposed to happen.  Supply has outpaced demand.  Price has gone down in search of additional demand.  That's how free markets work.

But over time, demand and supply and price would all come into actual balance.  Once the initial glut of items getting dumped on the in-game market goes away, the free market will rule.  You'll likely never see a mod like level 0 Jolt at around 100p, but you will see it at 10-15p so long as new players keep joining the game.  More than that, things like level 10 primed mods, specific rivens with perfect stats, and such will continue to demand a premium price because there is no way to remove the time element from those.  It takes a while to farm 40k endo, and likely longer to farm enough kuva to get a perfect riven.  Baro items will also be more valuable simply because they are limited time offers paired with the need for ducats.  So free to play players will still have multiple ways to turn their time into plat at a decent rate.

What y'all are arguing for is to prevent free markets from working because reasons and stuff and things.  Because those markets are going to work whether DE controls them or not.  Every day more players start using warframe.market and the various riven sites.  Eventually, enough players will be there that whatever it is you think DE is giving you by not creating an in-game market is going to be taken away anyway.  The difference in what I, and so very, very many people before have suggested is that DE controlling the market is safer and more convenient.

And if there is an item or items that DE doesn't want people to just buy all they have to do is make them untradeable.  Like they already do. 

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16 hours ago, Zahnny said:

I'm not going to get into this topic, as it's been beaten to death already but consider this.

Think of what would happen if the Riven Mafia got hold of this "Auction House"?

The short term is that players would rejoice in the ease of getting "stuff" they want.

The long term is power creep that few companies can handle, honestly.

This doesn't even touch the Riven Mafia.

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58 minutes ago, Xavori said:

Right this second, you can buy the full Mirage Prime set for 30 platinum.  Not because she's a bad warframe.  She's a very good DPS frame.  However, she's been unvaulted for a long time and pretty much everyone that wants her, has her.  Add in that the number of new Mirage Prime sets being created in the game as people open relics is vastly outpacing the number of new players joining Warframe, and it's no surprise that even a good frame has seen it's price drop so drastically.

That is what is supposed to happen.  Supply has outpaced demand.  Price has gone down in search of additional demand.  That's how free markets work.

But over time, demand and supply and price would all come into actual balance.  Once the initial glut of items getting dumped on the in-game market goes away, the free market will rule.  You'll likely never see a mod like level 0 Jolt at around 100p, but you will see it at 10-15p so long as new players keep joining the game. 

Yeah, no. 

That's not how the warframe economy works. Unlike real life, and unlike many other games, items don't degrade, they don't need repair and they don't need replacement. It's like the punchline of those old ads with the Maytag repairman, except it applies to the sales person too.

Imagine being a car seller in a world where cars never broke down, got old, or needed repairs. You'd sell the latest model like hotcakes, but you would only be able to sell old models to new customers who never owned that model. Now make it worse because every person in the city also has an auto dealership that they run where they sell cars and since this is the only way to make money, competition is fierce. 

In that scenario and in warframe, demand will never catch up to supply. Because after the initial glut, you will continue to have a glut because now even more people have those items and will be on the supply side of the equation. Congratulations, you increased the number of sellers exponentially.

And those new players? Only a small fraction of them buy the plat that they need to try and buy stuff. Everyone else is stuck trying to sell whole sets for 1 plat in order to be able to eventually afford a slot. 

 

 

Seriously, your brilliant plan, is nowhere near as brilliant as you think it is. Take some time to think your way through the basics, so that you can figure out why it's a terrible plan. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yeah, no. 

That's not how the warframe economy works. Unlike real life, and unlike many other games, items don't degrade, they don't need repair and they don't need replacement. It's like the punchline of those old ads with the Maytag repairman, except it applies to the sales person too.

Imagine being a car seller in a world where cars never broke down, got old, or needed repairs. You'd sell the latest model like hotcakes, but you would only be able to sell old models to new customers who never owned that model. Now make it worse because every person in the city also has an auto dealership that they run where they sell cars and since this is the only way to make money, competition is fierce. 

In that scenario and in warframe, demand will never catch up to supply. Because after the initial glut, you will continue to have a glut because now even more people have those items and will be on the supply side of the equation. Congratulations, you increased the number of sellers exponentially.

And those new players? Only a small fraction of them buy the plat that they need to try and buy stuff. Everyone else is stuck trying to sell whole sets for 1 plat in order to be able to eventually afford a slot. 

 

 

Seriously, your brilliant plan, is nowhere near as brilliant as you think it is. Take some time to think your way through the basics, so that you can figure out why it's a terrible plan. 

Seriously, my brilliant plan, is how the real world's economy works.  It's how the Warframe economy works too, but it just being artificially slowed through inconvenience and obscurity.

That inconvenience that you, and the others opposed to safe, easy to use market, apparently think you have to have is becoming less of a factor every day.  You are literally going to lose your only counter argument whether DE does anything or not.  Players will always find the shortest path to the cheese, and if they have to use a 3rd party website, so be it.

Go check warframe.market 90 day statistics on practically anything you want.  You'll see I'm right.  For example, the must have defensive mod, Adaptation, has dropped from ~75p to ~30p.  That's going to happen to everything that falls under the description you just gave, and it'll happen whether DE decides to give players a market or not because again, 3rd parties already have done just that.

Meanwhile, the things that take time, like say Arcane Grace or maxxed primed mods, hold their price much better because time cannot be waved away.  They'll still see some price reduction, but nowhere near as much as things whose price is artificially held high simply because the players who have them cannot be bothered to put them on the market (yet).

You are also ignoring the very real fact that while you won't be able to sell junk for as much, you'll be able to buy what you actually want much cheaper.  You won't need to make the artificially high priced sales when the majority of items in the game go down to their real free market value, and you'll still be able to sell those items which take time to acquire for values that incorporate the time you spent.

 

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16 minutes ago, Xavori said:

Seriously, my brilliant plan, is how the real world's economy works.  It's how the Warframe economy works too, but it just being artificially slowed through inconvenience and obscurity.

Seriously, that's the point. It is how the real world economy works. But it's not how the warframe economy works. We have no reason to be return customers for the vast majority of items. 

In the real world, items are used up, they degrade, they need repair or replacement. This is not the case in warframe. When's the last time you bought a prime set for something you already own one of? 

If you can't grasp why that is a fundamental difference that requires you to rethink the situation, then you are so far out of your depth here, that it's not  even funny. 

18 minutes ago, Xavori said:

Go check warframe.market 90 day statistics on practically anything you want.  You'll see I'm right. 

https://warframe.market/items/wolf_sledge_set/statistics

As supply increased exponentially, price went down exponentially, because demand did not also increase. 

That's the effect that what you propose will have on anything that is not unique. Your dream of easy plat for all will be nothing but a nightmare. 

28 minutes ago, Xavori said:

You are also ignoring the very real fact that while you won't be able to sell junk for as much, you'll be able to buy what you actually want much cheaper. 

Nope. I addressed that. Twice. But some people are apparently incapable of reading and comprehending what they saw:

13 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And no the crashing prices won't help to create more buyers, because the majority will be unable to earn any substantial amount of plat from selling their regular items due to the crashed prices

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Everyone else is stuck trying to sell whole sets for 1 plat in order to be able to eventually afford a slot. 

 

Again the fact that you are unable to grasp the basics is readily apparent. How much of that is because you are blinding yourself to what you don't like seeing, and how much is because you just have no clue, I can't really tell. 

Fortunately it seems that the people in DE are a little bit better informed than you are. 

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I don't dream of easy plat for all.  MY SUGGESTION COMPLETELY IGNORES PLAYER PLAT AMOUNTS/INCOME.

My suggestion is reality.  Warframe's economy doesn't get to magically ignore reality.

No matter what dreams you have of DE not implementing an in-game market might be, the out-of-game market will continue to exist and it will continue to produce the very results you seem to think won't happen.

You even showed the Wolf Sledge example AS EXACTLY THE POINT I'M MAKING.  No matter what happens, supply/demand/price will end up in equilibrium.  All DE has done is slowed that process, not stopped it.  And as more and more of the active player base starts turning to 3rd parties, that slowdown will become effectively meaningless.

Prices will be set by player demand.  I don't care that much of Warframe's economy is built around buy-once own-forever items.  That has nothing to do with anything fundamental.  Sure, it means that demand for those items is naturally limited, but so what?  If eventually a new player can buy Adaptation for 1 plat, how does that make your enjoyment of the game less?  And again, if that's where the supply/demand price point actually is, it will get there no matter how much you try to hold your breath and stomp your feet and plug your ears screaming "THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A FREE MARKET.  THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A FREE MARKET."

That's my point.  DE refusing to bring a safe, convenient market to Warframe doesn't accomplish the goal you seem to think would be positive (it's not, but that's a whole 'nother ball of bees).  The market will always get to the price point dictated by supply and demand unless DE flat out makes trading impossible.

You will not be able to earn more plat in your dream system where DE continues to leave money on the table by turning over a big part of their game to 3rd parties.  You will not be able to sell things for artificially high prices if DE doesn't implement a market.  So you have no counter argument.  All you have is wishes and imaginings that are slowly fading away.

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50 minutes ago, Xavori said:

I don't dream of easy plat for all.  MY SUGGESTION COMPLETELY IGNORES PLAYER PLAT AMOUNTS/INCOME.

My suggestion is reality.  Warframe's economy doesn't get to magically ignore reality.

You're melting down, buddy. Might want to take a moment to calm yourself before posting. Being worked up means that you are going to be posting ridiculous stuff that a sensible person won't post. 

As an example: above you're claiming that warframe, a game about space ninjas with magical abilities, has to mirror what goes on in the real world. Does that really make even a lick of sense to you? 

Once again in the real world, and many other games, items degrade and must be repaired or replaced. This maintains a level of demand that does not exist in warframe. Further, the potential supply of most of those items is near infinite. This means that even the stuff you tout as currently having a relatively stable value will be impacted if more people become active sellers, especially if those people are not required to be online and to actively participate to make the sales. 

51 minutes ago, Xavori said:

You even showed the Wolf Sledge example AS EXACTLY THE POINT I'M MAKING.  No matter what happens, supply/demand/price will end up in equilibrium.  All DE has done is slowed that process, not stopped it.  And as more and more of the active player base starts turning to 3rd parties, that slowdown will become effectively meaningless.

Prices will be set by player demand.  I don't care that much of Warframe's economy is built around buy-once own-forever items.  That has nothing to do with anything fundamental.  Sure, it means that demand for those items is naturally limited, but so what?  If eventually a new player can buy Adaptation for 1 plat, how does that make your enjoyment of the game less?

Yes it does show that the equilibrium point for the vast majority of items in the game will be very, very low. Because as items are farmed, demand goes down to almost nothing compared to the number of sellers. Nobody has to pay for your time spent, all we care about is the lowest price we can offer for the item. The same will apply to every item in the game. And the lowest price keeps going down. 

While you think thats a great thing because newbs will be able to buy almost everything for a tiny amount of plat, it means that whatever they have for sale will also be worth less, to the point of being worthless. This is bad for the game's economy. Because your potential buyers, first need to be able to sell something, to earn the plat to buy things with. This is the fourth time I've explained that in this thread, isn't it? 

And it makes my enjoyment of the game less because of the fact that crashing the economy will negatively impact on the game. If not from being unable to earn plat to cover my purchases, then through driving more new people to leave because they can't afford to buy the slots they need to progress in the game. 

And the buy-once factor is vitally important to the discussion at hand. If you are not able to grasp that, you need to take off the blinkers, or pick up a basic textbook for an explanation of why it makes a world of difference. 

1 hour ago, Xavori said:

You will not be able to earn more plat in your dream system where DE continues to leave money on the table by turning over a big part of their game to 3rd parties.  You will not be able to sell things for artificially high prices if DE doesn't implement a market.  So you have no counter argument.  All you have is wishes and imaginings that are slowly fading away.

I'm not a big seller. I have given away far more than I have sold. I buy my plat to support the game and farm most stuff anyway. Crashing the economy would benefit me in the short term, while killing it and ruining the game for everyone in the long term. But unlike you, I'm able to see why doing that would be a really bad idea. 

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On 2019-05-27 at 2:22 PM, Zahnny said:

I think it'd make more sense for DE to simply put a small circle around her, or give her an area where players cannot set up trade in. Simply moving her will only cause players to swarm her there, if they're doing it intentionally.

I thought about that - as a matter of fact, that was my first thought. But then programming knowledge kicked in and placing her in the back is a lot easier. No extra programming just change of placement. Players want that front door spot to be the first one buyers see when they walk in. So moving her may be the solution. Hopefully. But your suggestion may be the only solution. Jerks will be jerks and crowd her. 

I only go there to do statue run or extract endo. And when I do the rare give up and buy an item, I do it from the trade channel. Less hassle than going to the Bazaar and not finding what Im looking for.

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On 2019-05-27 at 2:41 PM, Zahnny said:

I'm not going to get into this topic, as it's been beaten to death already but consider this.

Think of what would happen if the Riven Mafia got hold of this "Auction House"?

Exactly how?

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