Shield and Armor

[ysegrim]

I thought about a mod for shields and to make them more interesting in a higher enemy level mission of about 100+

Optic Fiber (counts as steel fiber and can not be used in addition)

Armor protects your shield instead your health.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

If shields get armor then what’s the point of them still being Shields? I’m aware that Shields have issues aren’t are the worst line of defense against damage (unless they overload it with buffs like Hildryn), but just making Shields into health isn’t the answer.

[selig_fay]

The best option is to move the super shields under ordinary shields and distribute a weaker version of the hildryn passive ability.

[Xzorn]

How about reverse Adaptation?

• Shields get 90% DR
• When Shields take damage a stack of 10% DR is removed after 4 seconds.
• Gain a 10% Stack after 10 seconds of not taking Shield damage.

[selig_fay]

il y a 9 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

How about reverse Adaptation?

• Shields get 90% DR
• When Shields take damage a stack of 10% DR is removed after 4 seconds.
• Gain a 10% Stack after 10 seconds of not taking Shield damage.

this mechanic will not be better than health and armor for one simple reason, you cannot restore this resist quickly, and wait 90 seconds. The meaning of the shields is that they can quickly down off and can be quickly restored. (yes, I know, fans of inaros laugh at me, but this is so, as long as you do not use high-level equipment). What you offer will only be useful to a warframe with invisibility abilities, but for Mag, for example, it will be completely useless. At the same time, Mag is a frame that has the ability to protect with shields, while invisible frames already have OP protection by invisibility itself.

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, zhellon said:

this mechanic will not be better than health and armor for one simple reason, you cannot restore this resist quickly, and wait 90 seconds. The meaning of the shields is that they can quickly down off and can be quickly restored. (yes, I know, fans of inaros laugh at me, but this is so, as long as you do not use high-level equipment). What you offer will only be useful to a warframe with invisibility abilities, but for Mag, for example, it will be completely useless. At the same time, Mag is a frame that has the ability to protect with shields, while invisible frames already have OP protection by invisibility itself.

 

It's not supposed to make Shields as durable an eHP source. It's intended to improve the health type as most frames who use shields don't get hit often but when they do they explode. This gives the player room to make a mistake every once in a while without having to revive while also avoiding the faults of Shield Gating and Armor.

It also simultaneously does not help frames who already make good use of shields like Trinity, Mesa, Baruk, Gara, ect.

If you're getting hit more than once every 10 seconds on Mag then you're probably doing something wrong or playing very casually.

[selig_fay]

il y a 48 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

It's not supposed to make Shields as durable an eHP source.

Why not? Not all warframes have good armor and HP. And not all warframes have invisibility and resists. Why for some people only a small loss of health or shields, while others immediately fall? Why does HP have a way to recover energy while shields don't? Why do shields have many ways to be ignored while armor is only 1? I understand that “give passive hildryn to everyone” sounds too OP, but why not give shields the opportunity to completely absorb damage while they are gone for the first time? Not invulnerable, just absorb the one shot and that's it. Well, add synergy with extra shields so that they are less likely to be ignored. DE perfectly come up with this mechanic, it works, she just needs a small palette. And it could also work for mob shields, so that players would use less damage ignoring shields.

il y a 48 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

If you're getting hit more than once every 10 seconds on Mag then you're probably doing something wrong or playing very casually.

I do not play on Mag, but I often play on Hildrin and this offer will be just useless to me. My shields constantly take damage, if not from enemies, then from my abilities.

But even if we consider from another point of view, your proposal is simply useless. I don’t win at all from Arcane Shields. I don't win from shields mods  (Yes, maybe from mods to the maximum shield, but something tells me that it will not be effective.) . 

il y a 48 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

It also simultaneously does not help frames who already make good use of shields like Trinity, Mesa, Baruk, Gara, ect.

Tanks that run off after 20 seconds are not tanks. Yeah, that would be powerful, but dude, 90 seconds. 90 seconds not to get damage for a tank for a short-term buff? 

 

Your proposal would sound more logical if we received all 90% of the resist when we completely restore our shield. But as far as I remember, Loki’s invulnerability rolls back 60 seconds and players consider it unworthy of the slot. And you offer a mechanic that loses its power after 4 seconds of active combat. Banal excimus will not allow you to restore your resist.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by zhellon

[Xzorn]

5 minutes ago, zhellon said:

-snip-

 

Because the frames that don't have high health based DR don't generally get hit. If I can do 3h MoT on Mag and 2h on Volt and not get hit once that says their abilities are formidable enough to deal with incoming damage and all they really need is that woops buffer because mistakes happen. Shield Gating doesn't really work for this because either they get the immune period like Hildyn and it's exploited or they don't and it doesn't make any difference.

Armor is not just ignored by 1 type ie Bleeds. Puncture ignores 50% of Armor, Toxic ignores 25% and dips further into negative resistance from Flesh modifiers. Armor is quite flawed in it's ability to protect. Flat DR via buffs is far more reliable. Impact damage with it's +50% modifier is going to do far less harm to a frame with 90% DR on Shields than Puncture's +50% will do to Health based frame. Toxic bypassing shields is a whole other mess.

14 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I do not play on Mag, but I often play on Hildrin and this offer will be just useless to me. My shields constantly take damage, if not from enemies, then from my abilities.

That's the point. She's a Shield Tank (though I just perma Invuln).  It's not supposed to help tanks.

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough.

After shields take damage you have 90% DR for 4 seconds after which is drops to 80% DR. If you get hit again 4 seconds later it drops to 70% and so on. That's 36 seconds of diminishing DR on your shields if you're just taking constant damage. If anything I feel that's a bit too good but numbers can be easily changed.

[selig_fay]

il y a 16 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

After shields take damage you have 90% DR for 4 seconds after which is drops to 80% DR. If you get hit again 4 seconds later it drops to 70% and so on. That's 36 seconds of diminishing DR on your shields if you're just taking constant damage. If anything I feel that's a bit too good but numbers can be easily changed.

I don’t care about this part of the mechanics, it’s fine. I am worried about this:

Il y a 1 heure, Xzorn a dit :

Gain a 10% Stack after 10 seconds of not taking Shield damage.

This must be changed one way or another, because, unlike armor, which receives bonuses from the restoration of hp, this mechanics is completely independent of the objects or mechanisms that restore the shield. This is what I'm trying to say. I will repeat again, the mechanics of the shields are such that they can easily be broken, but can easily be restored. Your proposal does not complement this system, it's more like a crutch that nobody wants If I need a resist, I will just take a warframe that can provide it or put an ancient healer.

Edited May 28, 2019 by zhellon

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, zhellon said:

This must be changed one way or another, because, unlike armor, which receives bonuses from the restoration of hp, this mechanics is completely independent of the objects or mechanisms that restore the shield. This is what I'm trying to say. I will repeat again, the mechanics of the shields are such that they can easily be broken, but can easily be restored. Your proposal does not complement this system, it's more like a crutch that nobody wants

 

Ah, I realize it's independent but it was also the only way I could have find potency without making those frames I mentioned into further gods.

If you base it on missing Shields then problems happen. If you just Shield Gate with no immunity. It doesn't really help.

It doesn't make sense or work with the shield restoration concepts but it also isn't easily exploited. It's essentially Reverse Adaptation + Health Conversion.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

My way to make shields great (again)

• an aura mod that add 400 overshield (to you and your mates)
• a mod that add 30% damage reduction to your shield and 50% damage reduction to overshield
• increase base shield value of "squishy" frames (the lower the armor the higher the shield increase. keep actual values at 200+ armor)
• swap HP and shield increase from "+200% from levelling / +440% from mods" with "+440% from leveling / +200% from mods"

Edited May 28, 2019 by MonsterOfMyOwn

[selig_fay]

You might think in a different direction. Do not forget that we still have the mechanics of purple shields, from which you can do something amazing, rather than just a resist. I would suggest a nullificator shield mechanic or a special mod that does not allow the shield to take damage greater than a certain value. The shield would have well absorbed damage against enemies with slow weapons, but would be vulnerable against fast weapons.

il y a 11 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

It doesn't make sense or work with the shield restoration concepts but it also isn't easily exploited. It's essentially Reverse Adaptation + Health Conversion.

Adaptation does not work like a normal resist. Be careful with this.

Edited May 28, 2019 by zhellon

[Xzorn]

Try this again though I haven't thought this one through as well and this time as a passive and not a mod so it will be weaker.

• Shields have 75% DR
• After taking damage lose a 10% Stack of DR over 3 seconds
• Regain a stack of 10% DR over 20 seconds of not taking damage
• Shield Recharge Rate will increase the time of DR stack loss (ie Fast Deflection 3s > 5.7s)
• Shield Recharge rate will decrease the time to gain back DR (ie Fast Deflection 20s > 10.5s)
• Overshields grant Status and Toxic Immunity

[selig_fay]

Maybe instead of focusing on the mystical timers you think in the direction of the integrity of the shield? Well, for example, 40% resist when your shields are full and 90% resist when you have full extra shields?

[Xzorn]

4 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Maybe instead of focusing on the mystical timers you think in the direction of the integrity of the shield? Well, for example, 40% resist when your shields are full and 90% resist when you have full extra shields?

 

Cool, now my Trinity has 300k eHP instead of 200k.

...That's the purpose of the mystical timers.

[selig_fay]

il y a 6 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

Cool, now my Trinity has 300k eHP instead of 200k.

...That's the purpose of the mystical timers.

Nidus may have 17kkk EHP, wake up

Moreover, you can not consider effective HP in this way, since the smaller your shield, the smaller the resist. This again will protect against a single blow, but not against several quick ones.

Edited May 28, 2019 by zhellon

[(NSW)MagicalW]

I was thinking of a mod that gives like 300% shield capacity and it would have a mechanic like whenever health is damaged while shields are up the damage will be redirected to shield plus 15% of the damage dealt. I think this would really help a lot of squishy frames that have a high shield capacity. 

[selig_fay]

il y a 8 minutes, (NSW)MagicalW a dit :

I was thinking of a mod that gives like 300% shield capacity and it would have a mechanic like whenever health is damaged while shields are up the damage will be redirected to shield plus 15% of the damage dealt. I think this would really help a lot of squishy frames that have a high shield capacity. 

in principle, the toxin should be changed, since ignoring shields itself is too OP mechanic. At least it should be weakened while the shields are active, because it is logical. The slash is ignored by the frame capabilities and I do not see any particular problem in it.

Edited May 28, 2019 by zhellon

[Xzorn]

13 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Nidus may have 17kkk EHP, wake up

Moreover, you can not consider effective HP in this way, since the smaller your shield, the smaller the resist. This again will protect against a single blow, but not against several quick ones.

 

200k eHP is a real number. Nidus has about 100k if you go double Guardian. Trinity has the highest eHP in the game, can instantly replenish Shields and also gain Overshields. This is why that concept is flawed and easily exploited. It just makes the tanky frames more tanky like Adaptation did by further increasing the eHP gap.

And yes I use Redirection on Trinity against Corpus / Void enemies because of the Puncture Armor dip I mentioned. Not that I would need to if I got Overshields quicker without it and thus more DR. You've seen the meme Hildryn build right? No Shield mods. Dragon Key, perma immortal. This stuff doesn't work.

[ysegrim]

i didnt want to suggest core mechanic changes for shields cause at its core they are fine. they just do not protect much at a certain enemy level.

 

i tried to trust the mod system and suggest a mod that leaves shield as it is for low and mid enemy levels and seems not too strong so shields turn us invulnerable.

 

an alternative could be a mod in which you trigger shield regeneration always when you are aimgliding. this way you could trigger your regen actively without having to go into the cover shooter mentality. we got adaptation now. from my limited point of view as a gamer and not a designer, i would love to have even more variety than the massive amount we are already given when the level gets higher and more deadly. all this but with the intent in mind to not overhoal the stats completly. i feel it would be best for the game to always have that as a last resort only.

Edited May 28, 2019 by ysegrim

[selig_fay]

il y a 12 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

No Shield mods. Dragon Key, perma immortal. This stuff doesn't work.

Yes, I saw. Your offer will not change this. And I do not use the dragon key and use powerful shields if there were  too many slashes and toxins in the game. Volumetric shields with the help of mystic recovery shields excellent tank 100 level enemies.To be honest, I would prefer the shields to become more voluminous and recover without delay, because this is an excellent passive tank. In Eve online, it works not badly, although it has fewer resists than armor. 

But then again, high damage per second can break shield regen, because if it is not enough, you will be immortal.

Edited May 28, 2019 by zhellon

[ysegrim]

4 minutes ago, zhellon said:

To be honest, I would prefer the shields to become more voluminous and recover without delay, because this is an excellent passive tank. In Eve online, it works not badly, although it has fewer resists than armor.

you can already do something like that with arcane aegis, adaptation and high enough shields and using melee blocks consciously. hyldrin is already almost as tanky as inaros that way supported by shield regen mods.

Edited May 28, 2019 by ysegrim

[selig_fay]

il y a 12 minutes, ysegrim a dit :

you can already do something like that with arcane aegis, adaptation and high enough shields and using melee blocks consciously.

I can do it without blocks. Ancient healer, remember? 

The whole problem of shields is not that the mechanics are weak, but that now there are many ways to easily restore your HP, but how many ways to restore shields? And how effective will it be? Think about it One thing I can say for sure, the mechanics of the shields are in order. Just their volume and regeneration is not sufficient at high levels, that's all. Adaptation did not fix this, because adaptation is not a resist. And in the game, many enemies have Impact Damage

Edited May 28, 2019 by zhellon

[ysegrim]

i think that it is important to be aware that the majority of the game is under level 60 for most players and if shields are stronger at that level the game gets boring. the shield mechanic at its core is not weak at all in my opinion. i just see the protection lacking way sooner and more rapidly than with health and there is only so much that i believe can be compensated by movement. so i suggest either have setup options for shields through mods that prolong their protection or mods that help us use the shields better with movement. maybe these setup options for mods can require a certain mastery level too.

the main reason health stays more protective when the enemy level gets more serious is armor.

Edited May 28, 2019 by ysegrim

[selig_fay]

il y a 3 minutes, ysegrim a dit :

i think that it is important to be aware that the majority of the game is under level 60 for most players and if shields are stronger at that level the game gets boring. the shield mechanic at its core is not weak at all in my opinion. i just see the protection lacking way sooner and more rapidly than with health and there is only so much that i believe can be compensated by movement. so i suggest either have setup options for shields through mods that prolong their protection or mods that help us use the shields better with movement.

This is a very good idea. but it seems to me she will die, just as the idea of making the dependence of armor and speed of motion died.

il y a 3 minutes, ysegrim a dit :

the main reason health stays more protective when the enemy level gets more serious is armor.

Do not forget about quick thinking and energy recovery through HP.

Edited May 28, 2019 by zhellon