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Vit0Corleone

Why not endless progression in Warframe?

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So .. I was thinking about this the other day and wondering why DE doesn't implement this technique in Warframe.

I saw it recently while playing The Division 2. Yes, I know, completely different game, not really comparable etc.

But one thing I thought was an interesting concept is that on that game, when you reach the end ( by completing all tasks, beating all the bosses etc .), the game essentially gives you the option to proceed to a higher Tier of difficulty, where basically ( and I'm of course over simplifying ) you are invited to start the map from the beginning but with the enemies themselves starting at a higher level as well.

This applied to Warframe ( and, again, I'm over simplifying for the sake of clarity ), would basically mean something like starting on earth against Grineer level 80 enemies ( just as an example ). With the level scaling as it is, it would mean something like enemies being level 200 by the time you reach Jupiter - Of course, one has to consider that as you progress through higher Tiers, you have the option to farm better gear/mods, etc ..

Such a technique, in it's basic design concept, seems to allow games to have this sort of endless progression. In other words, it keeps getting harder and harder, giving a justification to keep adding more powerful toys to the game, and an incentive for players to keep challenging themselves and chasing better and better gear.

Out of curiosity, question for you Veterans, would you find it interesting something like this in Warframe?

I'm more than likely being a bit naive, and haven't really given it much thought, but has DE ever thought about implementing such concept? If not, why not?

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No.

I don't want fight a lv65535 lancer only to get petty 1 endo.

I would prefer slaughter 65535 lv1 lancer instead.

 

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It has been discussed many times... they just don't want to, mainly because the difficulty level is broken.

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This concept comes up alot on these forums.  TBH, I believe it'd split up the PUB instances too much.  The game cannot run level 80's for you at the same time as level 20's for the rest of the squad. As such, it needs to place you in different instances depending on the level chosen, which prevents newer players from bumping into Tennogen-clad, experienced, super-powerful OLDER players.  This being one way DE counts on newer player retention.

Basically... search "100 Days of Warframe" on Youtube...but then take out the part where the higher level player pops in...  And you're left with a frustrated Tenno that ends up quitting before spending a dime.

This does have its issues rooted in the flawed New Player Experience, which DE HAS taken STRIDES in fixing...but it's a work-in-progress, no doubt.  

So, in short: No, right now I don't think it's feasible doing things -that- way.  There ARE, however, plenty of post-starchart nodes, like Arbitrations, Sorties, etc...for this express purpose. So, food for thought.

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11 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Out of curiosity, question for you Veterans, would you find it interesting something like this in Warframe?

No, not something I want.  When I ask for difficulty I don't just want the enemy stats to get larger, I want differences in AI behaviour with more complex mechanic interactions and all round a far higher skill ceiling.  Simply increasing enemy level as a stat multiplier is an incredibly lazy way to fabricate difficulty.

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4 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

No, not something I want.  When I ask for difficulty I don't just want the enemy stats to get larger, I want differences in AI behaviour with more complex mechanic interactions and all round a far higher skill ceiling.  Simply increasing enemy level as a stat multiplier is an incredibly lazy way to fabricate difficulty.

this

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11 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

No, not something I want.  When I ask for difficulty I don't just want the enemy stats to get larger, I want differences in AI behaviour with more complex mechanic interactions and all round a far higher skill ceiling.  Simply increasing enemy level as a stat multiplier is an incredibly lazy way to fabricate difficulty.

Do you know of any game that does this, while at the same time allowing endless progression?

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2 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Do you know of any game that does this, while at the same time allowing endless progression?

The only game doing this is chess.

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42 minutes ago, dEjAvU5566 said:

No.

I don't want fight a lv65535 lancer only to get petty 1 endo.

I would prefer slaughter 65535 lv1 lancer instead.

 

What OP said is optional....

 

33 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

No, not something I want.  When I ask for difficulty I don't just want the enemy stats to get larger, I want differences in AI behaviour with more complex mechanic interactions and all round a far higher skill ceiling.  Simply increasing enemy level as a stat multiplier is an incredibly lazy way to fabricate difficulty.

And you know that this will Not happen

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1 hour ago, Vit0Corleone said:

So .. I was thinking about this the other day and wondering why DE doesn't implement this technique in Warframe.

I saw it recently while playing The Division 2. Yes, I know, completely different game, not really comparable etc.

But one thing I thought was an interesting concept is that on that game, when you reach the end ( by completing all tasks, beating all the bosses etc .), the game essentially gives you the option to proceed to a higher Tier of difficulty, where basically ( and I'm of course over simplifying ) you are invited to start the map from the beginning but with the enemies themselves starting at a higher level as well.

This applied to Warframe ( and, again, I'm over simplifying for the sake of clarity ), would basically mean something like starting on earth against Grineer level 80 enemies ( just as an example ). With the level scaling as it is, it would mean something like enemies being level 200 by the time you reach Jupiter - Of course, one has to consider that as you progress through higher Tiers, you have the option to farm better gear/mods, etc ..

Such a technique, in it's basic design concept, seems to allow games to have this sort of endless progression. In other words, it keeps getting harder and harder, giving a justification to keep adding more powerful toys to the game, and an incentive for players to keep challenging themselves and chasing better and better gear.

Out of curiosity, question for you Veterans, would you find it interesting something like this in Warframe?

I'm more than likely being a bit naive, and haven't really given it much thought, but has DE ever thought about implementing such concept? If not, why not?

For you to do so, your game has to have both of these elements, SOLID gameplay and a good story
Warframe currently is stalling on the story progression, the gameplay is clunky cause we're in melee 2.8 not melee 3.0
so the answer is no
PLUS which each re-run you have to be able to discover new content too, like secret rooms or rare items. Considering the reward pool that DE provide for missions, u can tell that they have a hard time knowing what is worth and what's not

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1 hour ago, Kyoresh said:

And you know that this will Not happen

Why can't it though?  With the number of enemies that exist within a tile at any one time DE could work on a system similar to the herd system in Horizon Zero Dawn.  The placement/movement of enemies can be affected by what combination of them exist in a space, with that awareness of composition increasing as the levels do.  I'm aware that this would be time consuming but I'm not asking for it to be implemented even within the next year but I strongly believe that some form of AI improvement needs to be implemented in the next 3-5 years or scaling with continue to be an issue and possibly what kills the game for the truly dedicated.

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1 hour ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Do you know of any game that does this, while at the same time allowing endless progression?

Plant vs Zombie lmao

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1 hour ago, bibmobello said:

The only game doing this is chess.

Diablo 3 does it with Greater Rifts and it's a disaster. The consequences are this:

1) "Viable" is defined by the highest attainable levels that players can achieve. You think the meta and diversity is bad now, just wait until you get selectable and endless difficulty levels. Then only a few frames and weapons will be "viable" and no Riven system will fix the worst of the worst weapons. Diversity will be largely dead. Endless missions kind of give you this... but everyone starts at the bottom and you have to play a long time to get very high level enemies. Selectable levels... everyone will, for example, arbitrarily start at level 150 or whatever... That will define "viable."

2) It causes severe power creep over time. You think power creep is bad in Warframe? When you have selectable endless difficulties, people will constantly want their favorite item or frame buffed. The result? Mods and frames with numbers like +10000% damage. After years of the Greater Rift system, these numbers are the norm now in Diablo 3. It's a joke! People think 1 trillion damage is average now.

3) It's been said in this thread. It will divide the playerbase and it will create a detrimental social order with elitists and casuals (worse than Veterans and non-Veterans). In Diablo 3, this leads to people being vote kicked for not playing the meta or being a certain paragon level or not having ancient/primal weapons whatever. Elitist players will refuse to play with anyone (or refuse to revive said players) not equipped with Rivens, with insufficient MR, and/or not using meta frames/weapons, etc... Because "viable" will inevitably correlate with all of these. It will poison Warframe's friendly community and it will become just another toxic gaming community. It is bad stuff!

It's a neat idea and a neat concept. It needs very careful thought and consideration, but I think no matter how smart you implement it (1) and (2) will be inevitable. Why? Because no matter how much balancing and math trickery you do, there will always be a handful of optimal builds and strategies. And these will inevitably be noticed with selectable endless difficulty systems. And then, DE will try to fix that... which leads to (2) which evolves into (1) for a new set of frames and weapons... which leads back to (2). It's a vicious cycle that will almost certainly ruin this game... especially with (3). It's bad stuff.

You do not want this. It sounds like a good idea, but it is a really bad idea.

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6 minutes ago, nslay said:

Diablo 3 does it with Greater Rifts and it's a disaster. The consequences are this:

1) "Viable" is defined by the highest attainable levels that players can achieve. You think the meta and diversity is bad now, just wait until you get selectable and endless difficulty levels. Then only a few frames and weapons will be "viable" and no Riven system will fix the worst of the worst weapons. Diversity will be largely dead. Endless missions kind of give you this... but everyone starts at the bottom and you have to play a long time to get very high level enemies. Selectable levels... everyone will, for example, arbitrarily start at level 150 or whatever... That will define "viable."

2) It causes severe power creep over time. You think power creep is bad in Warframe? When you have selectable endless difficulties, people will constantly want their favorite item or frame buffed. The result? Mods and frames with numbers like +10000% damage. After years of the Greater Rift system, these numbers are the norm now in Diablo 3. It's a joke! People think 1 trillion damage is average now.

3) It's been said in this thread. It will divide the playerbase and it will create a detrimental social order with elitists and casuals (worse than Veterans and non-Veterans). In Diablo 3, this leads to people being vote kicked for not playing the meta or being a certain paragon level or not having ancient/primal weapons whatever. Elitist players will refuse to play with anyone (or refuse to revive said players) not equipped with Rivens, with insufficient MR, and/or not using meta frames/weapons, etc... Because "viable" will inevitably correlate with all of these. It will poison Warframe's friendly community and it will become just another toxic gaming community. It is bad stuff!

It's a neat idea and a neat concept. It needs very careful thought and consideration, but I think no matter how smart you implement it (1) and (2) will be inevitable. Why? Because no matter how much balancing and math trickery you do, there will always be a handful of optimal builds and strategies. And these will inevitably be noticed with selectable endless difficulty systems. And then, DE will try to fix that... which leads to (2) which evolves into (1) for a new set of frames and weapons... which leads back to (2). It's a vicious cycle that will almost certainly ruin this game... especially with (3). It's bad stuff.

You do not want this. It sounds like a good idea, but it is a really bad idea.

This is great feedback, thanks.

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4 minutes ago, nslay said:

Diablo 3 does it with Greater Rifts and it's a disaster. The consequences are this:

1) "Viable" is defined by the highest attainable levels that players can achieve. You think the meta and diversity is bad now, just wait until you get selectable and endless difficulty levels. Then only a few frames and weapons will be "viable" and no Riven system will fix the worst of the worst weapons. Diversity will be largely dead. Endless missions kind of give you this... but everyone starts at the bottom and you have to play a long time to get very high level enemies. Selectable levels... everyone will, for example, arbitrarily start at level 150 or whatever... That will define "viable."

2) It causes severe power creep over time. You think power creep is bad in Warframe? When you have selectable endless difficulties, people will constantly want their favorite item or frame buffed. The result? Mods and frames with numbers like +10000% damage. After years of the Greater Rift system, these numbers are the norm now in Diablo 3. It's a joke! People think 1 trillion damage is average now.

3) It's been said in this thread. It will divide the playerbase and it will create a detrimental social order with elitists and casuals (worse than Veterans and non-Veterans). In Diablo 3, this leads to people being vote kicked for not playing the meta or being a certain paragon level or not having ancient/primal weapons whatever. Elitist players will refuse to play with anyone (or refuse to revive said players) not equipped with Rivens, with insufficient MR, and/or not using meta frames/weapons, etc... Because "viable" will inevitably correlate with all of these. It will poison Warframe's friendly community and it will become just another toxic gaming community. It is bad stuff!

It's a neat idea and a neat concept. It needs very careful thought and consideration, but I think no matter how smart you implement it (1) and (2) will be inevitable. Why? Because no matter how much balancing and math trickery you do, there will always be a handful of optimal builds and strategies. And these will inevitably be noticed with selectable endless difficulty systems. And then, DE will try to fix that... which leads to (2) which evolves into (1) for a new set of frames and weapons... which leads back to (2). It's a vicious cycle that will almost certainly ruin this game... especially with (3). It's bad stuff.

You do not want this. It sounds like a good idea, but it is a really bad idea.

Nah, I’d still want it.

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tiered difficulty in the Division games is an extremely good and common sense feature. You also see this with D3 and Path of Exile. if you're into the combat, it makes the game a joy. I've been advocating for this feature in WF for over a year, and I think Steve was mumbling something about implementing it on one of the dev streams, without a clear ETA. It's unfortunate this implementation isn't DE's priority because I think it would greatly improve retention of "vets." Scaling up the rewards slightly would be a trivial matter...we're used to bad rewards. Just give me a few thou Kuva or something. Give me literally any reason to fight higher lvl mobs, and I'll do it. Hell, I farmed a lot of my Exo against lvl 100 Amalgams just for fun.

They already did this with the Orb Vallis Corpus, with the alert levels. You get the choice of fighting higher level enemies, but sadly you aren't rewarded for it, so it's a half-baked feature. I farmed toroids fighting lvl 125 OV Corpus because I found it really fun. All they'd have to do is implement this feature in the Kuva fortress and POE, and scale up the rewards accordingly. A relatively simple matter, but again, it's just not a priority sadly.

Now regarding Arbies and kuva farming, why do I have to wait a goddamn hour to face tougher mobs? I'm just afk map clearing, it's boring AF. I should be able to jump into a mission at lvl 125 or 150, and receive 30% more resources or something, if I want to.

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Lvl 120+ The fundamentals and efficient builds start to really matter and that’s as far as difficulty gets with numbers the way you play against lvl 200 enemies is the same against lvl 1000 enemies 

Managing High priority targets is where I find the actual difficulty in a game like this due to the scaling issues

The other common low priority enemies are just adds that can easily be dealt with

So basically Maybe an elite modifier to missions with more eximus and VIP enemies such as infested ancients, corpus nullifiers and heavily armed grineer units starting at lvl 100 

In an Elite Assassination mission it should like a 4 man raid with 

The Raid Boss: Assassination Target

High priority targets: ancients, nullifiers or the heavy grineer units

Adds: Common enemies like lancers and chargers

Looking at difficulty at this angle might be more worthwhile since it focuses on more mechanical skill and team play 

Anyway this should maybe go in feedback 

 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

This concept comes up alot on these forums.  TBH, I believe it'd split up the PUB instances too much.  The game cannot run level 80's for you at the same time as level 20's for the rest of the squad. As such, it needs to place you in different instances depending on the level chosen, which prevents newer players from bumping into Tennogen-clad, experienced, super-powerful OLDER players. 

Come on. This is really not an excuse. I should be able to start my own instance on the mission select screen. It should give me three options - standard, veteran, or nightmare (default star chart level, lvl 80, lvl 120 respectively) with scaling rewards (lets say 10%, 20%, 30% more resources). So only those who wish to join a "veteran" instance will do so. if the "nightmare" instance is low pop, then who cares? All of WF is soloable anyway. I imagine most players would enjoy doing the mid-range content (say lvl 80 or something). Newbs or those who enjoy the "power fantasy" would do the standard mode, and more competitive pve players would choose the highest tier for some small incentive and make a slew of youtube guides about it.

Going back to my early WF days (last year, 800 hours ago), I absolutely loathed being put into games with "vets" who were clearing a lvl 20 map with Counterpulse. Or doing POE bounties with a fully modded Mesa on my team. Or someone facemelting lvl 40 mobs with a 6-forma Amprex. I'm sure they loved their power fantasy, but at the expense of my power fantasy. So what did I do? I just solo'd the goddamn thing. I hated my new player experience not because the pub population was too split up (lol), or because DE didnt hold my hand when I was learning the game's systems; but because the pop wasn't split up at all. WF was the first mmo-type game I experienced that didn't appropriately group the players according to levels. It felt so dumb, and I felt so useless until I was rocking the same gear.

High level players who have unlocked everything need a place to exist, away from newbs who are unlocking the star chart still. Then, competitive PVE players need a place to exist without messing with other players' power fantasy. I don't want to play with those who enjoy one-shotting the entire map, personally. It's so simple - just sequester us into content that makes sense for our interests. It's all there anyway, it just requires a bit of extra programming and UI design to make it happen.

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46 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

Why can't it though?  With the number of enemies that exist within a tile at any one time DE could work on a system similar to the herd system in Horizon Zero Dawn.  The placement/movement of enemies can be affected by what combination of them exist in a space, with that awareness of composition increasing as the levels do.  I'm aware that this would be time consuming but I'm not asking for it to be implemented even within the next year but I strongly believe that some form of AI improvement needs to be implemented in the next 3-5 years or scaling with continue to be an issue and possibly what kills the game for the truly dedicated.

Because our game isn't balance around that kind of meaningful combat, and when I say that I don't mean just our enemies but we as players with our tools aren't balanced for that. This game in a maddening rush of high range high damage slaughter fest with little real reaction timing or focused combat maneuvers, a fair deal of involvement isn't much of a perogative anymore. Maybe if we fully redid the balance of the game in whole this would be feasible, the further back we go into warframes history the more tactical the game was, but I'd frankly label it unrealistic to think it would last, assuming we got back to that pacing of combat to begin with which feels dubious on its own as DE are particularly fearful these days of downward rebalancing/nerfs even on our highest preformers.

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2 hours ago, Ikyr0 said:

Come on. This is really not an excuse. I should be able to start my own instance on the mission select screen. It should give me three options - standard, veteran, or nightmare (default star chart level, lvl 80, lvl 120 respectively) with scaling rewards (lets say 10%, 20%, 30% more resources). So only those who wish to join a "veteran" instance will do so. if the "nightmare" instance is low pop, then who cares? All of WF is soloable anyway. I imagine most players would enjoy doing the mid-range content (say lvl 80 or something). Newbs or those who enjoy the "power fantasy" would do the standard mode, and more competitive pve players would choose the highest tier for some small incentive and make a slew of youtube guides about it.

Going back to my early WF days (last year, 800 hours ago), I absolutely loathed being put into games with "vets" who were clearing a lvl 20 map with Counterpulse. Or doing POE bounties with a fully modded Mesa on my team. Or someone facemelting lvl 40 mobs with a 6-forma Amprex. I'm sure they loved their power fantasy, but at the expense of my power fantasy. So what did I do? I just solo'd the goddamn thing. I hated my new player experience not because the pub population was too split up (lol), or because DE didnt hold my hand when I was learning the game's systems; but because the pop wasn't split up at all. WF was the first mmo-type game I experienced that didn't appropriately group the players according to levels. It felt so dumb, and I felt so useless until I was rocking the same gear.

High level players who have unlocked everything need a place to exist, away from newbs who are unlocking the star chart still. Then, competitive PVE players need a place to exist without messing with other players' power fantasy. I don't want to play with those who enjoy one-shotting the entire map, personally. It's so simple - just sequester us into content that makes sense for our interests. It's all there anyway, it just requires a bit of extra programming and UI design to make it happen.

...please, for the love of Lotus, do not equate the words "Veteran" and "Difficulty".  They are not the same thing at all, much less interchangable.  

Anyways, it IS an "excuse".  Might not be one you agree with, but the facts are there to back it up.

YOU may have preferred to go it alone, and that's fine.  Clearly, the solo option was good for you.  Others, not so much.   

Regardless, it wouldn't matter...

... People would argue "This higher option needs higher rewards!" which, in player-speak, equates to "more powerful" rewards...which then eventually brings them up to the power of the enemies they fight, and then PAST that...

...which brings us back to square one.  People want MORE.  

Right now, DE is reworking how damage works as a -whole-, and honestly, that's the much smarter way to go about these things. Simply upping the numbers at this point doesn't matter when Tenno are capable of infinite damage....
 

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They are not changing the damage, they will nerf melee for sure. Now for normal missions it's not a problem but during long survivals the only decent weapons are melee. You will need to search for people on the chat for every kind of endless mission because you will need damage amplifier frames like Garuda or Banshee and i don't know if it will work or less.

In my modest opinion there were more important task to fix:

Banning players inactive for minutes during missions.

Using useless frames during index.

Force players to cooperate during missions.

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9 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

So .. I was thinking about this the other day and wondering why DE doesn't implement this technique in Warframe.

I saw it recently while playing The Division 2. Yes, I know, completely different game, not really comparable etc.

But one thing I thought was an interesting concept is that on that game, when you reach the end ( by completing all tasks, beating all the bosses etc .), the game essentially gives you the option to proceed to a higher Tier of difficulty, where basically ( and I'm of course over simplifying ) you are invited to start the map from the beginning but with the enemies themselves starting at a higher level as well.

This applied to Warframe ( and, again, I'm over simplifying for the sake of clarity ), would basically mean something like starting on earth against Grineer level 80 enemies ( just as an example ). With the level scaling as it is, it would mean something like enemies being level 200 by the time you reach Jupiter - Of course, one has to consider that as you progress through higher Tiers, you have the option to farm better gear/mods, etc ..

Such a technique, in it's basic design concept, seems to allow games to have this sort of endless progression. In other words, it keeps getting harder and harder, giving a justification to keep adding more powerful toys to the game, and an incentive for players to keep challenging themselves and chasing better and better gear.

Out of curiosity, question for you Veterans, would you find it interesting something like this in Warframe?

I'm more than likely being a bit naive, and haven't really given it much thought, but has DE ever thought about implementing such concept? If not, why not?

Its an idea.

Try posting it in the Feedback section...devs don't read General Discussion.

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13 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

So, in short: No, right now I don't think it's feasible doing things -that- way.  There ARE, however, plenty of post-starchart nodes, like Arbitrations, Sorties, etc...for this express purpose. So, food for thought.

I think this idea is somewhat different, right? The level starts hard rather than you grinding through several dozen waves before getting to something hard.

4 hours ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Looks like no #*!%ing person actually watched the devstreams..

Please enlighten the ignorant masses such as myself, oh blessed knowledge-keeper.

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Keylan118:

I think this idea is somewhat different, right? The level starts hard rather than you grinding through several dozen waves before getting to something hard.

Please enlighten the ignorant masses such as myself, oh blessed knowledge-keeper.

All I say is that difficulty stuff is already in the works. They talked about it in the past and I even think it was on that useless thingy.. what's it called.. this wall xD I forgot the name.. 

Something board.. oh no roadmap! 

Also worth mentioning is the difficulty slider.. they talked about it, but since I'm not at DEs Office I can't tell anyone it's progress.

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