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[DE]Rebecca

Operation: Hostile Mergers Leaderboard Information

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The more warframes/weapons/equipment/maps/enemies, the more possibilities for a player to do something "unexpected". Putting the blame on him -- and moreover banning him -- for something you overlooked is not a good move.

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7 minutes ago, maycne.sonahoz said:

The more warframes/weapons/equipment/maps/enemies, the more possibilities for a player to do something "unexpected". Putting the blame on him -- and moreover banning him -- for something you overlooked is not a good move.

Exploiting a clear bug to get inflated scores... yep... so worthy of sympathy...

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1 hour ago, Divious said:

Want to know how I know you and others who posted like you didnt read Rebbs post ūüėČ

I can tell you that you don't know that. I did read the post. Quite frankly, I have no clue how you think I didn't, except possibly by misunderstanding what I said. I'm aware that Loki's Switch Teleport is now considered to be an illicit strategy. However, 24 hours ago, I would have begrudgingly said "Even though I don't like it, it works, so I have to assume it's fair game." I had no way of knowing that killing an enemy that way was considered to be illicit. That's my concern here.

The issue I have is that what was "illicit" was unknown until AFTER DE handed out the rulings. If you're going to punish someone, the rules need to be laid out explicitly beforehand. The harsher the punishment, the more clear it needs to be. From what I can tell, killing the Demolysts via Switch Teleport was as simple as teleporting them into a pit. That's expected to me since I recall enemies dying if thrown off the map. That doesn't immediately sound like an exploit, that sounds like an understanding of how the game works. We know now that it was a bug, but were I a player participating in the strategy before, I would have believed it was intended to work like that.

The more I observe the strategy, the more I can imagine someone picking it up without realizing it wasn't allowed. There could be something I'm missing here. For example, if the strategy only worked under incredibly specific conditions, then I could understand that some participants should have realized it wasn't intended, and therefore wasn't allowed. However, even then, the issue stands, as such rules were not as explicit as they should have been. As far as I can see, normal players who happened to pick up the strategy, or players invested enough in the game to dedicate a large portion of their time to competing in it, may have been negatively affected in a considerable way by this decision, and if so, that should not have happened.

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5 hours ago, IspanoLFW said:

Tell me the difference between someone who finds an exploit, reports it, and doesn't repeat it... from someone who finds an exploit, may or may not report it, then ABUSES it.ÔĽŅ

The second one actually gets the bug to be fixed in a timely manner, clearly.

One day we'll have the good ol' DotA exploit mentality, which helps their dev team immensely with fixing bugs. They know their game is being broken once again, but there's no ban streak for it. They're totally aware that the broken things aren't the players fault and reproducing it helps with troubleshooting and fixing. And that's a PvP game with a competitive side to it.

Placing blame entirely on the players by banning them for using your the broken game part in their advantage is just being unable to accept responsibility, at this point.

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I say this as someone who hasnt done any of this, but the punishment feels very heavy handed. Especially as no one seems to have been harmed. At worst I'd say give the warning and wipe the scores, but suspension for using a power in the game creativly seems too much.

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28 minutes ago, Duhualan said:

Exploiting a clear bug to get inflated scores... yep... so worthy of sympathy... ÔĽŅ

I dunno, I always thought the limbo thing was part of how his power was ment to be used. Its to complex for me, but it doesnt seem worth an out of the blue suspension.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Duhualan said:

Exploiting a clear bug to get inflated scores... yep... so worthy of sympathy...

Which reply would you prefer?
- Issue is a known ability effect (like many others) working on an enemy (like many others) that can die from pitfall (like many others). Thus predictable, and not an issue in many other cases.
- Issue has been fixed and abuse scores have been reset.
- Issue could have been fixed beforehand.

Edited by maycne.sonahoz

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Ty rebecca.

You said it well, 2 years, many players have arrived since then and clans that lasted that long or even new ones didn't really refresh the idea of doing normal and intented gameplay, it was more of a "anything is valid", by aplying these punishments you reinforce the idea so that this doesn't happen in the next event.

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exploits the game

gets banned

surprised Pikachu face

well deserved people need to understand not to use exploits in the game after they discover it instead they should report or never use it again. continuously using them is a disrespectful action against tennos who doesn't exploit the game

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In my opinion, the event shouldn't have come with the introduction of the new game mode; but 7 days laters - the first week giving the new weapons to make people test it.

Like that, with one full week of heavy-testing & data-gathering, the Dev-team would have come with a big update patch for the game mod and by so activating the event.
 

Here, I just think they should have redo the rules & wipe out all progress of any team composed with a warframe/weapon/item with an effect that has been modified by the rules. There is something "unfair" to see a ban for something that was from thee start "a crime". 
By exemple, I'm thinking of that group-combinaison with a Trinity/Loki & Octavia to "cheese" with hard-combo & teamplay any defense mission. That's pretty hard to go there, should it be considered as "cheat" because using game mechanics ?

 

But the most bizarre thing to me is that the Wolf of Saturn Six was jumping into pits & voids, but came back unscattered to continue to fight; why the Demolysts didn't have such behavior from the start ?

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Stop doing leaderboards and competitive stuff. Competition always brings the worst in people and they'll always try to cheat to get ahead. Always. This is supposed to be a co-op game, so why not encourage more cooperative gameplay rather than competitive?

I disagree, and I'm glad people that are much better at communicating than I have spoken up about this. I don't enjoy the competition or am even in a position to compete in the first place, but I need to again point out that this "One bad egg, time to toss out the years entire harvest, and cancel all future harvests" mentality could be applied to the bad apples that absolutely destroy the squad play at early and late MR levels. As an example, I and a few others would honestly benefit from squad play being removed from the game entirely, but I wouldn't dare suggest it's a good idea, or an ethos to follow like Gabbynaru's post, especially when I can just CHOOSE to play Solo, just as many can CHOOSE not to compete.

If the idea here is that creating a breeding ground for a competitive attitude is a bad thing (simultaneously saying that a competitive attitude itself is a bad thing) then I hate to break it to anyone, but the Internet is a breeding ground for all sorts of negative attitudes, and it'll need to go in the trashcan too. We can't set that kind of precedent. And now here I am, worked up over nothing, eating a bag of snap-peas out of frustration.

 

I'd like to thank DE for meting out justice in this particular case and for making even the slightest movement to protect the integrity of a leader-board event.

Edited by Nathren
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Posted (edited)

Tbh the Clans who lost half of their points following bans should just get removed from Leaderboards entirely.

Edited by Chewarette
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Itt: people lacking reading comprehension talking loudly about how much comprehension they're lacking.

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To anyone that doesnt understand a game exploit and how is against many TOU's I will cite many examples. Exploiter Orb when nova or Octavia could one shot all vents. If you think about it You should understand that wasnt the intention. The intention obviously was to destroy each vent one by one. To try and go around this intention may seem like you being smart but you know better its not what is intended. Loki teleporting demolysts out of bounds there for getting points and bypassing the intention....Which was with this endless mission is to stop and kill them before they can reach the node. WIth the intent of health and shields increasing turning it into a end game damage sink. The intention how long can you survive before the demolysts are too much. Loki defeated this intention. Thus it being a exploit and against the TOU. There are countless other situations not in this game but others that should be clear as day if you are following what is called the Game Flow. Deviating from a game flow probably more likely then not is probably a exploit.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, -RD-Salind said:

what about the Remnants of the Void? XP

With all due respect, but what about them? Their score didn't go backwards, it went up. Therefore they didn't cheat. Afaik they released a guide with somewhat meta strategies(haven't seen it personally). What more do you want from them? I mean short of them running the event for other moon clans you can't ask for anything better out of that. Unlike most clans they even put their strategy out there early on and not at the end of the event. 

Edited by -CG-ImMrBloo
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@[DE]Rebecca There are some valid points in this thread regarding positive ways of allowing exploit use to some extent. Just like hackers get hired by governments - so you can utilise such players. If they are repeated offenders, that means they have a good sniff for such game breaking and enraging bugs. And let us be honest - this game breaks and things get repeated and unless it is some competitive event like this - it stays in the dark. Coop players do not care about most of such things. I didn't - I knew about this but got annoyed only when it actually affected me by seeing scores. Lock them from leaderboards if they exploit repeatedly, but give them a rewarding way for finding such exploits. Some cool looking dark accolades or whatever.

Yes, they made me angry for being 100 times better than me. But I will never be as good as them regardless of them cheating or not. They know the game better than me or even better than any of developers making this game (Maybe except Pablo - I heard everyone loves him).

But if you do not actually have playtesters - those are your best choices. In coop game, there is little need to ban players for breaking some mechanics. It is better to turn this into some nicer way as giving them on profile Mark of Dishonor and that mark would be visible on leaderboards.

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I honestly never care about these leaderboards events due to these very reasons (ah and they're repetitive and boring too) that Lotus pointed but banning people arguing that they're being banned cause it's ilicit when just now you say it is ilicit due to reasons 1 and 2 is not only stupid as doesn't makes any sense. I didn't knew that you could switch teleport demoliysts but instead of a ban I would congratulate a player by using a unused mod making it useful. It's devs fault not testing everything before releasing it and while you can't predict everything players will use, checking if the enemy will not glitch due to environment kill is pretty much basic. Bad event design as always and poor excuses.

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Personally I want those competitive events to stay. They're one of the only incentives in the game left for coordinated clan play and they created a lot of memorable moments for my people.

I also believe that cheaters should be punished, but in a game like Warframe thats growing faster than anyone could test it, that's tricky. Sure the negative damage rivens and the bugged Loki teleports were offenders, but wouldn't it be suffiencent to patch those problems, wipe said exploiters scores and tell them to try again fair and square? Because those people are actually doing DE a favor in putting the new game mode through the acid test... or why else would they release a widely untested game mode in combination with a competitive clan event? Again and again.

Suspensions and bans are sending the wrong message here, DE. In their wake you look short-sighted and even unfair to your own playerbase, because where does this end? Are all players who now use Hydroid's puddle tentacles to shackle the Demolyst in place suspended in the next patch? Are dozens of free "play testers" perma-banned in the next leaderboard event, because they exploited this one?

Again, I don't want those people to go unchecked. The integrety and credibility of the leaderboard is important for real competition, but surety must also be preserved in the playerbase. In a widely experimential (and spaghetti coded) game like Warframe no one should be banned for "abusing" omissions of the developer, because what's okay and what is not changes from patch to patch. Like the interaction of Mesa's Peacekeepers with Arcane Velocity two months ago.

I hope DE reconsiders their handling of those situations in the future, because I want to enjoy this great game without fear of suspensions or bans while exploring various interesting game mechanics and interactions with my clan. (And no... we did not use negative damage Riven or Loki or Hydroid strategies in the final mission of the event, because their gameplay was quite boring.)

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hace 13 horas, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

Hello Tenno!

We've done our first Leaderboard Operation since 2017-05-04 with Ambulas Reborn. You read that right - it's been 2 years! And history certainly does repeat itself. As we debut new mission types with Operations, so do we find that exploits are discovered and abused.

Years ago, Operation Trophies and their method of acquisition were changed to allow every clan the chance to earn them, rather than just top clans. This was done because top clans tend to have illicit runs, which means tying rewards to them is questionable.

With all this in mind in the midst of another Operation, the question becomes how involved it is to wipe illicit runs. Each event has a different definition of illicit runs because the variety of Warframe abilities and content results in different edge cases. In the case of Operation: Hostile Mergers, let's first define ‚Äėillicit' runs.

Operation: Hostile Mergers:

1) Using Loki's Ability to Switch Teleport a Demolyst to death on tiles with a bugged teleport volume resulting in insta-death is considered an illicit run.
2) Using negative damage exploits to compete is not permitted and is considered an illicit run.

We have been able to cleanly identify cohorts that used Items 1 and 2 for Leaderboard runs.

The following measures have been enforced against confirmed exploiters:

- Cases of extreme abuse have resulted in temporary suspensions until the Operation is over on June 3rd. Any suspended accounts now have a score of 0 for their clan.
- Illicit scores in general have been removed where applicable.
- If an exploiting account is a repeat offender of exploits or suspicious behaviour, permanent game ban.

Thanks to all Tenno who cleanly participate.

Cheers!

 

I have a question, if I may: Using Loki to kill de Demolyst is considered an illicit run, ok. Using that tactic to simply keep him away from the conduit or do it when he is about to explode so he doesn't affect the conduit is also considered illicit?

You probably got this question earlier, but just in case.

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16 minutes ago, Hawner said:

I have a question, if I may: Using Loki to kill de Demolyst is considered an illicit run, ok. Using that tactic to simply keep him away from the conduit or do it when he is about to explode so he doesn't affect the conduit is also considered illicit?

You probably got this question earlier, but just in case.

Just don't use Loki in the event from now on. Lots of legit runs were frozen as well. 

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13 hours ago, Deltablood said:

My concerns:

1. It seems kind of harsh to suspend or ban players who put, if nothing else, a lot of time into the event. I think it would be better to just reset their scores so that they can try to participate in the event legitimately.
2. I don't think it's proper to punish them to that extent when they didn't really have anything indicating that the strategy they used was not allowed. Killing enemies via Switch Teleport is unconventional, but unconventional targets call for unconventional measures. You could call it a cheese strat or whatever and that's fine, but ultimately I don't think the information the players had access to beforehand demonstrated clearly enough that such a strategy would not be tolerated.

I haven't been affected by this personally, nor do I know anybody who has been. Maybe I'm just giving too much credit, but I still find it a bit concerning that these players got suspended or banned for a strategy that wasn't explicitly stated to be illicit beforehand.

Pretty sure Quasars knew exactly what they were doing and that it was considered an exploit. What they didnt count on was DE actually dealing with their scores being left on the leaderboard. They're notorious for exploiting the S#&$ out of every clan event and obtaining scores that you could never get since the exploits always get fixed within a few days of the event starting.

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1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Tbh the Clans who lost half of their points following bans should just get removed from Leaderboards entirely.

fair, the clans that lost those massive chunks are the ones that do it every single clan event.

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This reeks once more of a pathetic attempt at maintaining 'control'. the various combinations of warframes and weird bug stacking allows for instakills and permanent CC yet you are not hunting those.

The issue is that DE does NOT reward people that report them. In essence it is more rewarding to keep these types of interactions to yourself than to BUGHUNT for a company which grosses tens of millions per year and gives a shoddy thank you for reporting this. an inequality once more. 

If DE was truly interested in keeping events like these cheating free they need to go back to the drawing board and reconsider their approach. The Veteran base of this game is tired of BAD Enemy Design, the demolyst and its variants are short of being the worst designed enemy after the Nullifier (thanks pablo!). Making S#&$ quality enemies brings out the worst type of competitive behaviour that is necessary to beat eachother at a cutthroat gamemode that does not care for the amount of gear you have with this intense scaling. The reverse approach (too easy of a gamemode or too accesiblle) makes for a bad event as well.

The hypocrisy that DE provides each time they say they want more build variety and diversity in warframe is #*!%ing laughable, in the end the meta forms and this time it consists out of TWO melee weapons! (not that you dare touch the damage system(Too big to fail comes to mind).

There has not been a single event that was not exploited. Communication issues arise once more thanks to DE not being clear on how to approach this type of gameplay, people need to be rewarded for their invested time in the game, a virtual score is what motivates competitive clans, can you imagine what a real bughunting program could provide for passionate and knowledgable players?

Don't give me the excuse that this game is free to play and in-game rewards should suffice. the issue's of exploiting are integral to this game and it's community around is not gonna change for the better with the passive agressive approach such like these @ [DE]Rebecca

 

Kind regards,

Excaliderp

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