Operation: Hostile Mergers Leaderboard Information

[IspanoLFW]

1 minute ago, BirdOfSong said:

I guess everyone who uses Trinity's EV to deal damage is exploiting then. After all "Trinity's Energy Vampire is not supposed to deal damage" -DE Selene

No, the base issue that that the things considered "cheats" have been in the game for months to years and are suddenly now banable offences. DE is at fault for bad communication and poor clarification of their own rules. 

I won't comment on other things, but the switch teleport thing, sorry to say, has NOT been in game for months to years. Even before the fix, an enemy switch ported into a pit... teleported back up. It was the new tileset that was missing something, and players abused that fact. Really that simple.

[Hawner]

hace 3 horas, BirdOfSong dijo:

Just don't use Loki in the event from now on. Lots of legit runs were frozen as well. 

I see your point, but if I can use that tactic, which would help my friends and I in case our weapons don't cut it, it would be better to know. 

[IspanoLFW]

Just now, Hawner said:

I see your point, but if I can use that tactic, which would help my friends and I in case our weapons don't cut it, it would be better to know. 

Delaying them by teleporting them further away from the node is fine, since the score is based on how much time is left, so the longer to kill it the less score. So endlessly teleporting it backwards to run the timer down doesn't really help.

[BirdOfSong]

1 minute ago, IspanoLFW said:

I won't comment on other things, but the switch teleport thing, sorry to say, has NOT been in game for months to years. Even before the fix, an enemy switch ported into a pit... teleported back up. It was the new tileset that was missing something, and players abused that fact. Really that simple.

I disagree. I remember Loki being able to kill enemies with abilities with ST on some maps in the past. The death pits are a new addition, but some map AOE objects are allowed ST surfaces. (Lasers, fire pits, ect) 

[IspanoLFW]

2 minutes ago, BirdOfSong said:

I disagree. I remember Loki being able to kill enemies with abilities with ST on some maps in the past. The death pits are a new addition, but some map AOE objects are allowed ST surfaces. (Lasers, fire pits, ect) 

I tested it on a great many different tilesets. Enemies dropped into pits, teleport onto solid ground, the same as players and items.

Ragdolling them into a pit is different, since ragdolling breaks the hell out of intended mechanics already, and causes them to bypass the boundary without being teleported back.

So, no. You can disagree all you want. I mean there's even a thread from just the end of last year about someone asking why he COULDN'T ST a mob into a pit, that they just teleport back up.

[BirdOfSong]

3 minutes ago, IspanoLFW said:

I tested it on a great many different tilesets. Enemies dropped into pits, teleport onto solid ground, the same as players and items.

Ragdolling them into a pit is different, since ragdolling breaks the hell out of intended mechanics already, and causes them to bypass the boundary without being teleported back.

So, no. You can disagree all you want. I mean there's even a thread from just the end of last year about someone asking why he COULDN'T ST a mob into a pit, that they just teleport back up.

So if I ragdoll them into the pit it wouldn't be considered an exploit? Oh well, time to break out the impact shotguns lads, we have a new one on our hands that the fourm community has legitimized. 

[IspanoLFW]

1 minute ago, BirdOfSong said:

So if I ragdoll them into the pit it wouldn't be considered an exploit? Oh well, time to break out the impact shotguns lads, we have a new one on our hands that the fourm community has legitimized. 

Skipped over "breaks the hell out of intended mechanics already" didn't you? And pretty sure you can't ragdoll the Demo anyways, you can try though.

[BirdOfSong]

Just now, IspanoLFW said:

Skipped over "breaks the hell out of intended mechanics already" didn't you? And pretty sure you can't ragdoll the Demo anyways, you can try though.

Thats the entire basis for this thread. 

"Luki is used in bork way, attacc activate"

So the real debate, again, should be on why DE has decided to use death pits with improper boundaries, flags, and the like. A whoopsie by everything but the art department and a failure from the QA team. 

[IspanoLFW]

Just now, BirdOfSong said:

Thats the entire basis for this thread. 

"Luki is used in bork way, attacc activate"

So the real debate, again, should be on why DE has decided to use death pits with improper boundaries, flags, and the like. A whoopsie by everything but the art department and a failure from the QA team. 

The flaw in your argument is "decided." They didn't "decide" to do so, it was a bug, it made it through. It happens with pretty much any software dev. It's still all on the players for exploiting it.

[BirdOfSong]

1 minute ago, IspanoLFW said:

The flaw in your argument is "decided." They didn't "decide" to do so, it was a bug, it made it through. It happens with pretty much any software dev. It's still all on the players for exploiting it.

You can't not decided to make them death pits

 It isn't the standard pit. Its a fully scripted death pit. That's a design choice, not an accident.

[VisuReality]

What about those accounts, who want to get a better score than his/her last non-bugged run? Since that these bugs are fixed and we don't want our scores frozen at like 6k or lower -- what if we want to contribute more, and practised (last run 22k and no those stuffs) but with a locked down score

 

[IspanoLFW]

1 minute ago, BirdOfSong said:

You can't not decided to make them death pits

 It isn't the standard pit. Its a fully scripted death pit. That's a design choice, not an accident.

It's not a death pit if it's intended for things to get teleported back up, now is it? So, please do try again.

[BirdOfSong]

Just now, IspanoLFW said:

It's not a death pit if it's intended for things to get teleported back up, now is it? So, please do try again.

Then why do they contain a funcKill and not just bottom out like the ones on the Venus ship tileset?

[IspanoLFW]

2 minutes ago, BirdOfSong said:

Then why do they contain a funcKill and not just bottom out like the ones on the Venus ship tileset?

It's called visuals. You can jump off into space on the Kuva fortress, same thing. You can jump into the bottomless pits elsewhere, same thing. Just because it LOOKS like things should fall forever to their doom, does not mean that's the intended mechanic. Players would lose a life when it happens if that was the intention.

Also the enemies don't die that way. They just up and vanish or despawn.

[BirdOfSong]

16 minutes ago, IspanoLFW said:

It's called visuals. You can jump off into space on the Kuva fortress, same thing. You can jump into the bottomless pits elsewhere, same thing. Just because it LOOKS like things should fall forever to their doom, does not mean that's the intended mechanic. Players would lose a life when it happens if that was the intention.

Also the enemies don't die that way. They just up and vanish or despawn.

That brings me back to what I also said. Why isn't the funcKill trigger flagged properly? Or why isn't the TP trigger flagged properly? 

[IspanoLFW]

3 minutes ago, BirdOfSong said:

That brings me back to what I also said. Why isn't the funcKill trigger flagged properly? Or why isn't the TP trigger flagged properly? 

You keep saying that the pits are designed to kill, with zero evidence considering anything that makes it past the teleport boundary for whatever reason, does not actually die, it despawns. There IS a difference. And it's called something that made it past QA, as good or as bad as QA might be for a given dev, that does NOT give a player the right to exploit it, especially in a competitive environment.

[BirdOfSong]

7 minutes ago, IspanoLFW said:

You keep saying that the pits are designed to kill, with zero evidence considering anything that makes it past the teleport boundary for whatever reason, does not actually die, it despawns. There IS a difference. And it's called something that made it past QA, as good or as bad as QA might be for a given dev, that does NOT give a player the right to exploit it, especially in a competitive environment.

So again. If they are designed to despawn, why are they set to kill. 

[IspanoLFW]

1 minute ago, BirdOfSong said:

So again. If they are designed to despawn, why are they set to kill. 

Again, zero evidence. You keep saying they are set to kill, with nothing backing it up. Just because the game mode treats the Demo "disappearing" as a completion, does not mean they're actually being killed.

You really like trying to go in circles, don't you? It was unintended. Everywhere else in the game could be used to know this, to know that enemies are not meant to be removed in that fashion. It was exploited, and now punished. Done.

[BirdOfSong]

12 minutes ago, IspanoLFW said:

Again, zero evidence. You keep saying they are set to kill, with nothing backing it up. Just because the game mode treats the Demo "disappearing" as a completion, does not mean they're actually being killed.

You really like trying to go in circles, don't you? It was unintended. Everywhere else in the game could be used to know this, to know that enemies are not meant to be removed in that fashion. It was exploited, and now punished. Done.

Both parties in this argument are just assuming. Unfortunately we cant just check what happens to prove one or the other correct.

[IspanoLFW]

Just now, BirdOfSong said:

Both parties in this argument are just assuming. Unfortunately we cant just check what happens to prove one or the other correct.

Except you can go elsewhere in the game, even prior to the event, to see what's the intended function. You know you will never know the actual code and functions unles you work for DE, but there's plenty of evidence in game for one side over the other.

[Incongruous]

1 hour ago, BirdOfSong said:

Both parties in this argument are just assuming. Unfortunately we cant just check what happens to prove one or the other correct.

From what I see you're the only one that's assuming things without much evidence. IspanoLFW is just stating facts that have been part of this game for a long time.

[Giantconch]

Yikes this thread and topic are divisive and its just breeding a ton of arguing without much of anything being added anymore.

 

People who exploited a bug with a PIT (not switch teleport as they seem to be confused about) in order to secure a better rank in a competition got spanked. The temporary suspensions do suck and might be a bit too much, perhaps a simple blockage from having a new score on the board would have been enough, not my call there, but it is just a temporary suspension until the event is over, not the worst punishment but not the best either.

 

Thats my 2 pennies on the matter, you may resume your bickering now.

 

**edit**

 

And it seems that a lot of the "input" people give is erronous where they think it IS a normal mechanic for enemies to get ST'd into a pit and DIE. It is not. That is not a game mechanic, that was a bug, and it was exploited, and the people who used it got spanked for exploiting it. ST'ing the enemies is not the illicit exploit, its using the bugged pits to kill the demolysts that was the bug that was exploited. Yeesh...

[HIGHDAMAGE]

Staff should have taken responsibility on themselves at first which op didn't then demand "fairplay". Similar buggs was also part on the previous events. Git gud DE time to change that attitude bar

[Pirate-X]

19 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

- Cases of extreme abuse have resulted in temporary suspensions until the Operation is over on June 3rd. Any suspended accounts now have a score of 0 for their clan.
- Illicit scores in general have been removed where applicable.
- If an exploiting account is a repeat offender of exploits or suspicious behaviour, permanent game ban. 

 

Thanks to all Tenno who cleanly participate.

Cheers!

 

 

Not cool. While I didn't do this in the endurace, I almost did. Because the scaling shields/health makes it damn near impossible to keep up long term what this event does is simply reward people who have better gear. I saw a demolyst die from getting knocked out and came up with the same strategy myself in the simulacrum. I however did not use it. Not because I felt it was illicit or unfair, but because the scale of and situation with my own clan means that no matter how high I scored I wasn't going to get our clan anywhere near the top and it wasn't worth the effort of even trying. The anti-participatory exclusiveness nature of the competition for clans that are situated to reign the top which is something that DE should be trying to avoid because it's bad for the community, is ironically the thing that saved me from possibly getting banned by this action. Which physically sickens me to know that DE's response to using game-play mechanics is something that could have possibly ever resulted in something like a week-long ban from the game itself, not even like being banned from chat. That is wrongful and a major wrong-doing on DE's side.

 

If DE had a vision of how a competition should have run within the in-game context it's one thing to disable or remove "illicit" run scores as desired, which stings a little for people who put the time in, giving them some sort of secondary reward for the time and effort they put in at least would help smooth things over, even acknowledging it with a top illicit-run badge would be something. These weren't rules specifically states before the competition that somehow disabled or said not to use loki-switching etc...  The act of disallowing demolyst death on pit drop was a proper step in that direction.

 

The handling of this is in very poor form and shows poor judgement on DE's side. Assuming those people come back to playing, I think those players should at least get a reactor/catalyst in the mail, suspensions lifted with an apology that perhaps the suspending the account was an over-reaction that wasn't in line with the spirit of the community and game. DE's mistakes in design should not penalize players for playing the game itself  around those design decisions and where they might be deemed so, they should be slight and more gracefully maneuvered. Personally, the mistakes of DE saved me from DE's worse mistake, so I'm lucky for that. But DE really needs to work on being more communicative among those who make these decisions and widen their perspective and scope on how and why these results happen. Determining whether there was ill intent or whether these were just deemed unfair.

 

The sort of action in this way is analogue to DE Scott saying that the Itzal neeeds to be nerfed, and he's not wrong about why he came to that conclusion - even if that conclusion may potentially not be the case in that there could be a better design alternative that wouldn't affect it. But then DE considering that it's illicit and banning everyone whose ever used Itzal blink on landscapes because other archwings couldn't do it or that's not what they envisioned happening. That would be a terrible decision and I think in that manner it's visible for the employees to say yeah that's too harsh. Find a way to fix the design problem, definitely. Remove scores that don't really play into envisioned competitive rules that was overlooked, less okay. Banning people for not knowing beforehand that you don't want them to play a certain way which is fairly innocent in and of itself, terrible.

 

This ban did not personally effect me or anyone I know of off hand, but this decision to ban people in the community is such poor handling it has affected me and given me pause to reconsider longer-term play of the game may not worthwhile if DE is not operating in a considerate, reasonable, and professional manner intended to be fair to the player or community. I'm unsure if this was due to an outcry of unfair play that was felt needed a swift resolve and appearing to be definitive, in which case I think that swiftness came with lack of perspective and individual compassion - which can't be undone but can be rectified.

 

 

[Oblivious_Jericho]

19 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Stop doing leaderboards and competitive stuff. Competition always brings the worst in people and they'll always try to cheat to get ahead. Always. This is supposed to be a co-op game, so why not encourage more cooperative gameplay rather than competitive?

You do realize a good 90% or more of this game is cooperative play right? Outside of content that can be managed by the solo player, even they had to play cooperatively for a while before they had the mods and set up to play solo.