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[DE]Rebecca

Operation: Hostile Mergers Leaderboard Information

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Just now, BirdOfSong said:

So that's it then? The competitive community spends hours of their lives on remaining competitive for the community to lynch mob it and call for bans? To no surprise DE delivers.
What is even left for the competitive community? We lost Dark Sectors, PVP is a fiery train wreck, and now events are going to persist in a state of decay.
Its a real shame that players are continually penalized for the failures of the studio as a whole, a lack of a competent QA department, and a lack of foresight from the coders who work on the game. Yes, I am calling it out. Stop recycling code through the entire game. It continues to degrade any progress and only continues to hinder the community as well as everything released onward from here. Its a systemic issue that has plagued the game for more then I would like to consider.
 

Yeah, the "competitive community" have only clan events as content, and you guys still f*ck it up exploiting everything.

Who is the culprit? The owner that let the car open or the thief that stole the car?

Many of "competitive players" like you stole the car and now are blaming the owner for letting the door open.

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Exploits are not cheating or 'illicit'. I don't even see how the Loki one could be considered an exploit. It's a function of the game, and if you didn't want it to be used like that, you should've changed it before now.

Resetting scores to 0 is a bit harsh for something that's arguably your own fault. But I can see where you're coming from.
Suspensions and bans, however, are absurd. You can't punish someone that harshly for playing the game 'wrongly', when the definition of 'wrongly' is known only to yourselves.

(Before anyone calls me a salty cheater or some nonsense: no, I did not personally get suspended/banned/have my score reset, nor did anyone I know.)

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-05-29 at 6:52 PM, BirdOfSong said:

So that's it then? The competitive community spends hours of their lives on remaining competitive for the community to lynch mob it and call for bans? To no surprise DE delivers.
What is even left for the competitive community? We lost Dark Sectors, PVP is a fiery train wreck, and now events are going to persist in a state of decay.
Its a real shame that players are continually penalized for the failures of the studio as a whole, a lack of a competent QA department, and a lack of foresight from the coders who work on the game. Yes, I am calling it out. Stop recycling code through the entire game. It continues to degrade any progress and only continues to hinder the community as well as everything released onward from here. Its a systemic issue that has plagued the game for more then I would like to consider.
 

.

Edited by Feltal
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Posted (edited)

rip, looks bad to make ex post facto laws and definitions.

should at least let players redo their runs if original was "illicit"

Edited by fantaisie
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10 minutes ago, -OP-NerevarCM said:

Yeah, the "competitive community" have only clan events as content, and you guys still f*ck it up exploiting everything.

Who is the culprit? The owner that let the car open or the thief that stole the car?

Many of "competitive players" like you stole the car and now are blaming the owner for letting the door open.

Hello, please look at my profile before considering me as a competitive player.
The culprit is none other then DE themselves. Things that have existed in the game for over FIVE YEARS are now an exploit? I'm calling them out and the coders who copy pasted the generic MOA enemy.
Its insufferable that they just blanket ban quite a lot of players for simply playing the game and using tools as intended.

No, im absolutely sick of the community lynch mobbing players.
Proof that I haven't even participated in the event: 58 days from last login.
http://prntscr.com/nv5ycx

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I didn't do any of these (only have a score just over 4000) but it seems pretty S#&$ty you will block/ban/remove people for using abilities that are in game. Why can't they use a Loki to teleport someone to their death? That's just smart thinking...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Julian_Skies said:

Also the particular thing with Loki isn't because they were throwing enemies into pits to kill them. There was this one specific place in this particular pit that could do it because the place that is supposed to teleport players/enemies back to land when they fall wasn't there. If you, as a player, can't realize this is a bug and go on to use that in a competitive mode, you're not innocent, you're malicious.

Wait, really? Well dang, DE should've made that clearer in their post. Here I'd been thinking that it wasn't even a bug.

Edited by _Kireek_

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Could have at least said that anyone in those exploited run had score frozen too, instead of saying only the heavy abuser. I'm now froze at 16k (tough I won't be mad and accept it, but precising could have been nice)

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12 minutes ago, -OP-NerevarCM said:

Yeah, the "competitive community" have only clan events as content, and you guys still f*ck it up exploiting everything.

Who is the culprit? The owner that let the car open or the thief that stole the car?

Many of "competitive players" like you stole the car and now are blaming the owner for letting the door open.

But I mean by following your analogy, our "society" doesn't know that breaking cars is bad. We were never explicitly told that it was bad and sometimes we are allowed to "steal" cars without consequences like with Gara and Plague star as a user mentioned above, right? I don't think it's fair that people get punished for breaking the rules when the rules were not properly defined in the first place. Lots of people just saw it as a feature, a feature like using Volt and Chroma for tridelons and not a bug. This is just my understanding however I may be in the wrong. 

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2 minutes ago, ---Dradon--- said:

Could have at least said that anyone in those exploited run had score frozen too, instead of saying only the heavy abuser. I'm now froze at 16k (tough I won't be mad and accept it, but precising could have been nice)

Lots of innocent clans and players are caught up in the blanket freezing. It leads me to think that they just froze everyone who ever ran with a Loki.

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Just now, Ceanmunt said:

I didn't do any of these (only have a score just over 4000) but it seems pretty S#&$ty you will block/ban/remove people for using abilities that are in game. Why can't they use a Loki to teleport someone to their death? That's just smart thinking...

It wasn't a ban, it was a suspension. I come from a background of PVP games where sweeping bans of thousands upon thousands of players at once for exploits and hacks are pretty common, so I'm used to this. Honestly I don't care one way or another since there were no rewards involved, but I do have to say the Warframe community is exceedingly fond of using exploits and glitches and thinking that's amusing or valid tactics. Some clans and groups hoard this information as if it was valuable game knowledge. 

Honestly DE probably didn't even scratch the surface of all possible exploits that could have been used in Disruption, there's soooo many glitches and exploits in WF it isn't even funny. I'm not about to go around reporting anyone, but I don't think it's amusing or a valid "strategy" either. Loki teleport was clearly a bug, because it worked on some tilesets but not others. People actively using this tactic to score that high had to reenter the mission multiple times until they got the right tileset to abuse it as easily as possible. 

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21 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

It wasn't a ban, it was a suspension. I come from a background of PVP games where sweeping bans of thousands upon thousands of players at once for exploits and hacks are pretty common, so I'm used to this. Honestly I don't care one way or another since there were no rewards involved, but I do have to say the Warframe community is exceedingly fond of using exploits and glitches and thinking that's amusing or valid tactics. Some clans and groups hoard this information as if it was valuable game knowledge. 

Honestly DE probably didn't even scratch the surface of all possible exploits that could have been used in Disruption, there's soooo many glitches and exploits in WF it isn't even funny. I'm not about to go around reporting anyone, but I don't think it's amusing or a valid "strategy" either. Loki teleport was clearly a bug, because it worked on some tilesets but not others. People actively using this tactic to score that high had to reenter the mission multiple times until they got the right tileset to abuse it as easily as possible. 

What reason do they have to report the bugs? You report them on the forums? They get ignored or people mob you for cheating. It is also not uncommon to be outright banned for them either.
So you decide to report them to support? That's laughable. "I don't think that's a bug," - Support
So the players just hoard their bugs and features to use for themselves

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hello Tenno!

We've done our first Leaderboard Operation since 2017-05-04 with Ambulas Reborn. You read that right - it's been 2 years! And history certainly does repeat itself. As we debut new mission types with Operations, so do we find that exploits are discovered and abused.

Years ago, Operation Trophies and their method of acquisition were changed to allow every clan the chance to earn them, rather than just top clans. This was done because top clans tend to have illicit runs, which means tying rewards to them is questionable.

With all this in mind in the midst of another Operation, the question becomes how involved it is to wipe illicit runs. Each event has a different definition of illicit runs because the variety of Warframe abilities and content results in different edge cases. In the case of Operation: Hostile Mergers, let's first define ‘illicit' runs.

Operation: Hostile Mergers:

1) Using Loki's Ability to Switch Teleport a Demolyst to death on tiles with a bugged teleport volume resulting in insta-death is considered an illicit run.
2) Using negative damage exploits to compete is not permitted and is considered an illicit run.

We have been able to cleanly identify cohorts that used Items 1 and 2 for Leaderboard runs.

 The following measures have been enforced against confirmed exploiters:

- Cases of extreme abuse have resulted in temporary suspensions until the Operation is over on June 3rd. Any suspended accounts now have a score of 0 for their clan.
- Illicit scores in general have been removed where applicable.
 - If an exploiting account is a repeat offender of exploits or suspicious behaviour, permanent game ban.

Thanks to all Tenno who cleanly participate.

Cheers!

Thanks for this! Was about time we get some actual competition and not just a "who knows of these secret exploits is gonna win" event.

Though may i ask for you to look into this further? Whilst i'm all for punishing and deleting "cheated" scores, there seems to be the case where LOTS of unguilty players have a frozen score (not zero) and unable to get a better score.

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While I don't play a Loki and have never owned one - When did a basic ability of the Loki become an exploit? I mean this is one of the original suits and a technique that's been used from near day one in this game. Some operations are one or more big pits begging every Loki player to use it to kill mobs or save themselves (inadvertently killing a mob).

The pitfall was an ascetic choice. The operation could have had a lower floor with an elevator for the Demolysts. The swap would then have been a delay tactic not a kill. Other bosses have simply been made immune to swapping. Why are we suddenly crying foul? Why are we talking perma-ban instead of fixing the operation.

This is a game that's constantly evolving. There will be levels like this that don't account for all the suit abilities. I think we should just suck this up as a level design goof and remind the level designers not to put bottomless pits next to critical mobs without making them immune to swapping or getting knocked off. Otherwise we risk losing the player base that supports this game.

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3 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Stop doing leaderboards and competitive stuff. Competition always brings the worst in people and they'll always try to cheat to get ahead. Always. This is supposed to be a co-op game, so why not encourage more cooperative gameplay rather than competitive?

The scores are achieved through co-op, you going to punish dozens of other clans with thousands of players over a few players that exploited?
This event caused the biggest clan activity we have seen in years now, we actually got clans to revive again. Plenty of people recruiting and making their clans active again.
We have had plenty of time with no sort of competition, 2 years if you read the OP. A lot of people were unhappy during it. No type of activity to do as clan left clans with a lack of purpose only there for research. That's the type of warframe clans you want? Might aswell remove clans and have their research go to the market then.

I find this decision to punish exploiters a great addition. It will help prevent them from doing so (atleast some of them) in the next operation.
Removing the scores also allow to show what top clans were using glitches or not. Since my clan was geting acused of exploiting, this cleared our name so I appreciate it!
I hope you continue to do more leaderboard operations, it helps keeping clans active and giving them some purpose. This event made it so that being in voice chat helped your squad so it was great for discord and interactions between clanmates.
Thanks for the Operation !

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I'm always baffled by people trying to be competetive in this PvE game. I do them for fun but endurance runs become a measuring contest for some poeple who are determinated to have bigger numbers than all the other players.

Calm down guys. Not having the biggest number next to your name is not the end of the world.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Cases of extreme abuse have resulted in temporary suspensions until the Operation is over on June 3rd. Any suspended accounts now have a score of 0 for their clan.
- Illicit scores in general have been removed where applicable.
- If an exploiting account is a repeat offender of exploits or suspicious behaviour, permanent game ban.

Thanks to all Tenno who cleanly participate.

Cheers!

Wow, wow, wow. Can we chill here?

Do you understand you are going to ban best players for your own mistakes? There is actually a small comunity, and it's amaizing in a first place how they keep themself alife for a 2 years.

It's bad enough when you throw the words "exploit", "bug fix". The fact that we have lost the interaction of Hydroid and Necros for strange reasons is disgusting. But at least we haven't banned anyone. Of course, you can't ban almost everyone and Rebecca first. But if you ban those who are jealous of the majority, you will even get a little approval.  

When you take control abilities from all frames, but it stays with Loki, can I use it? What if it's not Loki? And if I can kill with this ability?
And if on any other tileset the enemy can not be thrown beyond the borders, but here begins the event and you can do almost nothing with a mob. But, for some reason you can transpose em. And, say, this map flies at a huge height...

Don't get me wrong. This is your game and you define the rules of the game. If you want - reduce the effective amount of loot, if you want to define the rules of the event. But, please, you don't have to scare people with a ban, just for the fact that they want to get the best result.
I believe that you have the best intentions. But Warframe just doesn't allow you to say for sure if you're using a bug now, or if it's a mechanic's idea.
Actually, you write about it yourself:

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Each event has a different definition of illicit runs because the variety of Warframe abilities and content results in different edge cases. In the case of Operation: Hostile Mergers, let's first define ‘illicit' runs.

But, for some mystical reason, this means that not only will players not be compensated for not being counted, but they will also be excluded from the competition in the future. Is it legal to use telepathy to learn the rules of the game?  Because I may have to, but I'm afraid.

Of course, when we talk about obvious software errors, as a negative damage is one thing. But when you write that "and now we will set a different definition of illicit and punish everyone who did not know that we would do so"... Don't you feel that something is wrong?


P.S. And in fact, I would be the first to be happy if you really managed to set the boundaries. Last time I had to spend 16 hours just to be able to write about it two years later. And I doubt there's a single person out there, other than those we fought against, who would appreciate it.

Unfortunately, your promise on the stream "do it faster to be the best"  didn't come true. And we have another endurance run.

P.P.S. You understand that there will be TOP clans anyway? And the only definition here is the ability and desire to use all the features of the game. That's kind of the point.
For the average player in some sense it is even better to know that they are all cheaters and exploiters. Because even after cleaning the table, there will always be some results that are beyond compare.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Lemuroza said:

I'm always baffled by people trying to be competetive in this PvE game. I do them for fun but endurance runs become a measuring contest for some poeple who are determinated to have bigger numbers than all the other players.

Calm down guys. Not having the biggest number next to your name is not the end of the world.

No, but a crack team of coders that graduated fresh out of script kiddo copy and paste school is the end of the world.

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11 minutes ago, m0rchaint said:

While I don't play a Loki and have never owned one - When did a basic ability of the Loki become an exploit? I mean this is one of the original suits and a technique that's been used from near day one in this game. Some operations are one or more big pits begging every Loki player to use it to kill mobs or save themselves (inadvertently killing a mob).

The pitfall was an ascetic choice. The operation could have had a lower floor with an elevator for the Demolysts. The swap would then have been a delay tactic not a kill. Other bosses have simply been made immune to swapping. Why are we suddenly crying foul? Why are we talking perma-ban instead of fixing the operation.

This is a game that's constantly evolving. There will be levels like this that don't account for all the suit abilities. I think we should just suck this up as a level design goof and remind the level designers not to put bottomless pits next to critical mobs without making them immune to swapping or getting knocked off. Otherwise we risk losing the player base that supports this game.

When switch ported over a pit in ANY other map, enemies do not "die." They get teleported back onto the map, just like players and items do. There was a bug with the new tilesets, perhaps only in certain spots, where this did not happen. Regardless, the enemy teleporting back is THE intended function.

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Posted (edited)
vor 17 Minuten schrieb Lemuroza:

I'm always baffled by people trying to be competetive in this PvE game. I do them for fun but endurance runs become a measuring contest for some poeple who are determinated to have bigger numbers than all the other players.

Calm down guys. Not having the biggest number next to your name is not the end of the world.

Actually its about "who has the better understanding of the game".
The Numbers are just the icing on the cake.

Also, i really hope they implement more competitiv stuff. "Rail Jack : Clan vs Clan" pls gib.

Edited by -VS-Zany

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7 minutes ago, -VS-Zany said:

Actually its about "who has the better understanding of the game".
The Numbers are just the icing on the cake.

Also, i really hope they implement more competitiv stuff. "Rail Jack : Clan vs Clan" pls gib.

Darksectors or bust Zany. Let the clans relive their former glory among the stars. Let us mass mobalize again. 

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Gerade eben schrieb BirdOfSong:

Darksectors or bust Zany. Let the clans relive their former glory among the stars. Let us mass mobalize again. 

Imagine the epic warspeeches we could do again. gib DE. Gib.

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Bans feels way too heavy handed for this kind of thing. Its not like the people that did this used external cheats.

I support the reset of their score, and the suspension should be only for people that abused it too much. No bans over something that is not really that damaging or malicious!

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