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[DE]Rebecca

Operation: Hostile Mergers Leaderboard Information

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If Loki Switch Teleport was an illicit move, why wasn't it fixed back in Update 5.4 with his ability to Switch Teleport the cryopod defense target? Or when they fixed Loki's ability to Switch with the decoy into the vault?

 

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Honestly the real reason behind the exploits is because the Demolysts are completely unfair most of the time.

Their damage resistances are out of the ordinary, they have extreme sponginess past 20-30 minutes, making the game mode non-endless without using said exploits or extreme team setups for insane amounts of damage (the team comp will most of the time have some difficulty trying to keep the damage consistent past a certain point).

The demolysts have diferent run speeds ranging from slow to "I am speed" memes, making some of them such as the Moa (which is ironically faster than Satyr) very fast.

And most of the time the demolyst completely ignores the player, and rushes to the objective.

On top of all of this they also ocasionally disable tenno active abilities every 2-3 seconds making them extremely difficult to crowd control or even debuff. The moa on the other hand, also has complete ability immunity after it heals itself, becoming pretty much godmode without out of the ordinary damage buffs.

Yes, exploiting is bad and unfair 99% of the time, but this time the demolysts are far more unfair, the gamemode is highly unrewarding and non-endless for casual loadouts.

All people really wanted was to have a neat statue.

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5 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Stop doing leaderboards and competitive stuff. Competition always brings the worst in people and they'll always try to cheat to get ahead. Always. This is supposed to be a co-op game, so why not encourage more cooperative gameplay rather than competitive?

i went to sleep just before the patch, came back my clans score went up by 100k... RV still top of the leaderboards and what it really means to be a comp clan in warframe, keeping your roosta clear of inactives and people who dont want to actually try for score, since day one of the event we have been top moon without exploiting, so i disagree, comp should exist because it gives vets something to do to grow communities that are actually willing to fight for nothing but a placing on a leaderboard in mmo pve looter shooter. 
yes is does breed clans like Q, but they have always been that way and never change. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Nostromo_Crew said:

If Loki Switch Teleport was an illicit move, why wasn't it fixed back in Update 5.4 with his ability to Switch Teleport the cryopod defense target? Or when they fixed Loki's ability to Switch with the decoy into the vault?

 

They did not change Loki's Switch Teleport. It still works on Demolysts, as far as I know.
They changed the tile-set not having teleport back to ground for NPC's who fell off the map.

Edited by Quilitine
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Let’s exploit the S#&$ out of this game to make it better. Yeah no.

You found a bug, you report it. Move on. You don’t push it to 300k by exploiting it. Read the god damn post. Only EXTREME ABUSE of the exploit got banned until 3rd June. And REPEAT offender of exploits got perma banned. If someone got banned it’s deserved. 

Casual players only got their score reset. If no one gets punished it would set a precedent. Using an exploit gives you advantage over everyone else. DE did a good job 

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Posted (edited)
il y a 14 minutes, Eklectus a dit :

You've made it up in your head that an Operation is all about finding an exploit to make it easier. That's not it. Perhaps you should stop thinking about how to break the game in order for it to suit your needs and actually compete, you know, fairly?

Again, finding a bug is not a bannable offense, in fact, it's quite often rewarded. What does deserve to be harshly punished is continuing to knowingly exploit it.

I have two response track toward these points

Everyone, and I'm not even joking that I know from Q are people that want to surpass themselves. Yes some got score locked for using Loki on some of their runs, some even on their test runs while their main runs weren't even using any kind of exploits, but what I know is that if it weren't from that score lock, the score that everyone were pissed about would come back. Why? Not because there are other exploit or bug, but just because the people I know from Q are the most dedicated Warframe players I know. I don't know much players that would sit more than 6hours in a mission for the sake of doing something for the pride of their clan.

Second response track was that I never saw a reward for a bug report, but I'm only here since 2015 so I'm not the oldest boi in the club. So yeah no real incentive to do so as you suggested. And I do agree that in normal season abusing a bug should be punished, but Operation are made for finding them like I countlessly told and quoted DE community manager.


On that note @Quilitine I'm going to bed ! So I'll stop posting 😄 

Edited by --Q--Krakov
Forgot something
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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Years ago, Operation Trophies and their method of acquisition were changed to allow every clan the chance to earn them, rather than just top clans. This was done because top clans tend to have illicit runs, which means tying rewards to them is questionable.

i only agree with this change on some levels, consider your welling to go to the effort of removing exploited scores i think a platinum level trophy above gold would be worth making and making it so first place leaderboards for each clan rank got one, but only like a month after the event when leaderboards have been cleaned 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, DustyFlash said:

Honestly the real reason behind the exploits is because the Demolysts are completely unfair most of the time.

Last time I checked, statue wasn't 3mil for storm tier.

+1 for try and positivity, had a nice laugh.

By ur logic, game mode isn't fair, so ppl exploited it so that's ok exuse. Ppl who did it reached req for rewards looong ago. The reason to abuse it wasn't because of the rewards.

Edited by Vengeance_A
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Tenno Space Program sending enemies oob/into pits and to their deaths was an illicit? O.O
or are demolysts just special?

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I really don't think this is worth a ban, primarily cause, it wasn't all that apparent it was an exploit. In fact, I faintly recall it advertised somewhere as a tactic. In past competitions, whenever people used exploits or cheated, they always tried to hide it because it was obviously an exploit. This wasn't really the case here. In fact, if it wasn't the fact that I am way too lazy to bother with targeted abilities, I would have considered using it without worry.

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The amount of people trying to justify cheating by any means and calling clever is hilarious. I do hope competitive stuff keeps coming back. I also have to applaud how you handled this, DE. Exploiting bugs takes away the fun of participating in these events, and the exploits here were well known, that's why so many clans climbed up so fast and far on the ranks.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Grimm said:

i went to sleep just before the patch, came back my clans score went up by 100k... RV still top of the leaderboards and what it really means to be a comp clan in warframe, keeping your roosta clear of inactives and people who dont want to actually try for score, since day one of the event we have been top moon without exploiting, so i disagree, comp should exist because it gives vets something to do to grow communities that are actually willing to fight for nothing but a placing on a leaderboard in mmo pve looter shooter. 
yes is does breed clans like Q, but they have always been that way and never change. 

Yep. We did. Our score actually went up when everyone else when down around us. People would say beating your face against a wall is a stupid idea but sometimes brute force is needed. Also I wonder how many clans used the guide we made? XD - Id like a solid count yakno? 

Edited by --RV--Goddess
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6 hours ago, Takkov said:

I mean, Loki just did what he always did, I dont see where the exploit in that is in the first place. All my runs were with Inaros anyhow, but if an ability just does exactly what it is supposed to be, where is the exploit? Mainly asking for clarification, as it doesnt make any sense to me from a logical point of view.

Someone may have already cleared this up for you, but I'll explain as best I can. People were using Loki's Switch Teleport on the Demolysts (and probably other enemies but the Demolyst is much more important here) in specific parts of the map that had known bugs that were set to be fixed. These bugs in the map allowed players to Switch Teleport and instantly kill the Demolysts, which is not the function of Loki's ability at all. No Warframe or weapon in the game is designed to just simply cause instant death of an enemy, while you may get big enough damage to kill something in one shot, nothing in this game is just "I use this and it dies." The people using this bug were doing so with the full knowledge that what they were doing to "win" was an unintentional problem or design flaw in the game, and using said bug to advance their own scores far beyond something anyone in this game could achieve by normal means, which is exactly what an exploit is.

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1 hour ago, Nostromo_Crew said:

If Loki Switch Teleport was an illicit move, why wasn't it fixed back in Update 5.4 with his ability to Switch Teleport the cryopod defense target? Or when they fixed Loki's ability to Switch with the decoy into the vault?

 

It’s not the ability in itself. A bug occurred when used on a specific map, which people then abused.

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1 hour ago, Vicidomini said:

I really don't think this is worth a ban, primarily cause, it wasn't all that apparent it was an exploit. In fact, I faintly recall it advertised somewhere as a tactic. In past competitions, whenever people used exploits or cheated, they always tried to hide it because it was obviously an exploit. This wasn't really the case here. In fact, if it wasn't the fact that I am way too lazy to bother with targeted abilities, I would have considered using it without worry.

Did you not read the other posts explaining what exactly people were doing? This isn’t just a case of “use switch teleport to send enemy off the map”, it’s a case of “use switch teleport on a specific point of the map that doesn’t follow the established rules of how switch teleport works on npcs to insta kill demolysts”

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, --Q--Krakov said:

Well the only blame I put on DE is not seeing the benefits of allowing exploiting. 

My head hurts after reading that 

Edited by -CG-ImMrBloo
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Posted (edited)

(Edit okay they insta-killed enemies exploit noted, but as stated boss like immovability from the start none of this would have happened...)

This seems knee-jerk aggressive, seeing how "Oh switch teleport works!?" "I can move this enemy that destroys an objective away from the objective"

Now you give this strategy to a group of people who spend hours in survivals who are now playing this new game mode.

What do you think is going to happen...?

DE: your getting some sort of punishment because we didn't put boss like immovability on these targets from the start...

 (insert jackie chan what face meme)

(I didn't play this whole leaderboard thing, but I just wanted to point out knee-jerk aggressiveness.)

Edited by Corvenir
didn't fully understand what happened.
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11 minutes ago, Corvenir said:

(Edit okay they insta-killed enemies exploit noted, but as stated boss like immovability from the start none of this would have happened...)

So your solution is to just remove options, entirely? Demolysts aren't a normal boss. Moving them away so you can buy a bit more time to kill them is a legitimate strategy. Finding holes in the... holes of the level in order to instantly kill them isn't.

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Posted (edited)

I dont think categorizing teleportation of the loki is cheating ( at first, disregarding the existence of this mission 2 months ago. ) if you can do that with any other enemy.

The point is that this has just become cheating because it is a new game mode, with different winning conditions.
Who discovered this mechanic was creative, and if DE thinks that teleporting a main units to abyss is a bug or cheating, it should have at least monitored the missions / reddit / forum and pronounced as soon as possible.

Every new mission will bring conditions of different victories and there will always be such frictions. It's like inventing a regulatory law for something that never existed, for example, regulating the internet with laws.

__


On this subject, moreover, if they did not envisage this, it does not have to therefore hate on this discussion with arguments like "everyone who does this should be punished"

I was already banned in the game, because I entered illegally 2 years ago in a relay of the tennocon. I had my account suspended for a while and the trade. There were a lot of people that were banned because it was
induced by others, but I, I was induced and in sequence I taught how to do it, because of this I think the temporary suspension was fair to teach me a lesson (because I did not even know the money would for a charity fund, despite my innocence, my action was grave.)

now, compare the difference between entering a relay of the tennocon to use a skill that was designed just to do that.
We all know that this Loki swap skill should not even exist at first because of the trolls, however the DE preferred to leave it as it is, so in this particular case, I believe that the responsability is more of the company than of the players
who found this facility (because you can not call it a glitch overall) .

PS:
I do not advocate who commits glitch, but I do not think it is enough to generalize punishments, each case is a unique case to be analyzed to take the most appropriate measure.

Edited by --Blame--

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Posted (edited)

I think the (temp) banning is going a bit too far, just reset the scores and move on, it's not as if there was really anything to win by being at the top of this event.

And maybe, just maybe you shouldn't do events AT LAUNCH like that, you know there'll always be an issue or something in need of balancing after a launch, so why not have a week or two of "warm up" to clear this and then once you know the gamemode is ready (and people are ready for it) you open the leaderboard and do a challenge with rewards?

Edited by TheLordOmega2
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I agree with the clearing of the leaderboards and the resetting scores to 0, so on and so forth. All of those are fair and balanced when it comes to something that was not intended.
however the account suspension until the event is over is something that i do not agree with.

If we look at the situation one way, players found out (probably on accident) that Demolysts die if they fall off a cliff.
This probably sparked a debate on the fastest way to push a demolyst off a cliff to kill them.
It was found that switch teleport works on them and the cheese began.
however this is clearly mechanics that were in the game and were not math manipulation or weirdness with rivens. It was simply an oversight by you guys at DE.
it was a clever way to kill the demolysts by using warframe powers, and in a game about freedom of builds and play-styles i would think that you of all people would understand that you should never suspend a player for being clever. removing the score is one thing, but preventing them from enjoying the rest of the game is another story.

now nobody will probably read this and nothing will probably come of this but I at least wanted to try to get a voice out there that you are being a little harsh on the players here.
arguably they will maybe not do it again in the future with other exploits, but they also will stop trying new things, they will stop trying to find new creative ways to defeat enemies, and they will stop enjoying the game as a whole because they feel like they are being punished for being clever.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with this post/decision. 

On another related note:

The core of the problem imo here is DE trying to make a a competition revolve around a mission(s) that has no practical limits. In this case,   scaling enemies in endless missions.  But More specifically the exponential growth of enemy health and armor.   So long as these values grow beyond the games 'intended' meta,  the more it will encourage/force 'unintended' or  illicit game play. 

Also for now until it is addressed/balanced,  DE should just stop using endless mission/scaling enemies for competitions as this (again) not only forces even more 'ilicit meta' to be used but it also forces ppl to believe that infinitely scaling enemies is the only 'end game' of difficulty in warframe.

I dont have the go to resolution to suggest a real fix,   but i believe perhaps starting with Health/armor/dmg caps and other dmg dampener mechanism can be used to equalize all player weapon dmg  on a certain mob or boss etc (as we see in thumper).

Fix or balance enemy scaling and you fix alot of other issues.  

Edited by -Edrick-
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10 minutes ago, --Blame-- said:

I dont think categorizing teleportation of the loki is cheating ( at first, disregarding the existence of this mission 2 months ago. ) if you can do that with any other enemy.

The point is that this has just become cheating because it is a new game mode, with different winning conditions.
Who discovered this mechanic was creative, and if DE thinks that teleporting a main units to abyss is a bug or cheating, it should have at least monitored the missions / reddit / forum and pronounced as soon as possible.

Every new mission will bring conditions of different victories and there will always be such frictions. It's like inventing a regulatory law for something that never existed, for example, regulating the internet with laws.

__


On this subject, moreover, if they did not envisage this, it does not have to therefore hate on this discussion with arguments like "everyone who does this should be punished"

I was already banned in the game, because I entered illegally 2 years ago in a relay of the tennocon. I had my account suspended for a while and the trade. There were a lot of people that were banned because it was
induced by others, but I, I was induced and in sequence I taught how to do it, because of this I think the temporary suspension was fair to teach me a lesson (because I did not even know the money would for a charity fund, despite my innocence, my action was grave.)

now, compare the difference between entering a relay of the tennocon to use a skill that was designed just to do that.
We all know that this Loki swap skill should not even exist at first because of the trolls, however the DE preferred to leave it as it is, so in this particular case, I believe that the responsability is more of the company than of the players
who found this facility (because you can not call it a glitch overall) .

PS:
I do not advocate who commits glitch, but I do not think it is enough to generalize punishments, each case is a unique case to be analyzed to take the most appropriate measure.

Except it is. Moving an enemy with Loki is fine. The thing is, if you tried to switch teleport an enemy on any other tileset, into a pit, the enemy teleported back to solid ground. I tested this when I heard what people were doing. So, no, it IS cheating. You use something intended, ie switch teleport, to do something unintended, ie a mob dying in a pit, where it should not. Things slip through the cracks, such as proper boundaries to force the enemy back onto the ground, this does not give one an excuse to exploit it.

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