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"grindiness" Fix Ideas


StuffedTurkey007
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I heard in the livestream that grindiness was not intended, so I thought of some ideas that would preserve the challenge of the game while making it less grindy.

 

#1 Have the drop rate on rare resources and blueprints/components for boss kills 100%. You may not get the BP you need, but at least the RNG gods can't completely smite you.

 

#2 Make rare nightmare mods more likely to be rewarded from higher-leveled nightmare missions and from No Shields + Energy Drain (I already posted this before in more depth).

 

#3 Have higher-leveled defense missions give higher rates of rare rewards (T3, Master Thief etc). I think I've farmed Eligor 100 times for Master Thief and still haven't gotten it. I'm wondering if Ancient Retribution is behind this or if my sacrifice to the RNG gods wasn't enough... Anyway, I would gladly do Outer Terminus for double or triple the rate of rare rewards.

 

These ideas spawned from the idea that greater challenges should generally have greater rewards - this way, you don't have to grind as much if you're challenging yourself with harder missions.

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StuffedTurkey007,

Your #1 suggestion is how the new Golem works - he rewards a BP 100% of the time, the part (Chassis, System, or Helmet) is what's random. This is preferred in comparison to other bosses? Please comment. The argument becomes "I'd rather get (X) things I don't want vs nothing at all". What, as a player, would you prefer as a reward mechanic?

Additionally, the Golem rewards are also at mission end as opposed to a physical drop. Players, thoughts on this vs. what occurs for other bosses now?



 

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StuffedTurkey007,

Your #1 suggestion is how the new Golem works - he rewards a BP 100% of the time, the part (Chassis, System, or Helmet) is what's random. This is preferred in comparison to other bosses? Please comment. The argument becomes "I'd rather get (X) things I don't want vs nothing at all". What, as a player, would you prefer as a reward mechanic?

Additionally, the Golem rewards are also at mission end as opposed to a physical drop. Players, thoughts on this vs. what occurs for other bosses now?

 

 

Rebecca, I absolutely love the way Golem (errr Lephantis) gives rewards!  I think this is how all assassination missions should hand out rewards.  You get something, and there's not chance of the BP orb dropping in a crevice or something.  That would be so wonderful.

 

Also, aces on the latest hotfixes.  Fixed the derelict crashes my friends and I were getting.  Really like what you and the team are doing!

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StuffedTurkey007,

Your #1 suggestion is how the new Golem works - he rewards a BP 100% of the time, the part (Chassis, System, or Helmet) is what's random. This is preferred in comparison to other bosses? Please comment. The argument becomes "I'd rather get (X) things I don't want vs nothing at all". What, as a player, would you prefer as a reward mechanic?

Additionally, the Golem rewards are also at mission end as opposed to a physical drop. Players, thoughts on this vs. what occurs for other bosses now?

 

 

1. I preferred something always dropping rather than nothing, yes

 

2.Things you "don't" want can always be sold for credits

 

3. Loved the fact that we didn't have to track down the purple orb; also would likely prevent the issue of speed farmers grabbing the purple orb, seeing what it was, and disconnecting if it wasn't what they wanted thereby leaving the others to finish the mission alone

 

All the tweaks to the mechanics of the drops with the new Lephantis are great, all bosses should be done like this :)

Edited by KARMA2605
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StuffedTurkey007,

Your #1 suggestion is how the new Golem works - he rewards a BP 100% of the time, the part (Chassis, System, or Helmet) is what's random. This is preferred in comparison to other bosses? Please comment. The argument becomes "I'd rather get (X) things I don't want vs nothing at all". What, as a player, would you prefer as a reward mechanic?

Additionally, the Golem rewards are also at mission end as opposed to a physical drop. Players, thoughts on this vs. what occurs for other bosses now?

I love this, I like the whole idea because of the main reason that it prevents the "douchbag farmer" from leaving when they dont get X that they want.

 

Specially when a bp you need drops, Only for them to dc and the match to bug out resulting in no bp is one of things that has made me rage the most.

It also stops the whole "Did a bp drop?" Where? in chat and adds a level of suspense in finishing the mission to see what youve earnt

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Sometimes physical BP drops from bosses fly way over to the other side of the room and teammates say there's no BP.  And then when there's actually no BP, the host just quits the mission and sometimes host migration does not end well.  

 

It would actually eliminate those types of players if it was rewarded at the end of the mission just like the new one in Derelict.

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StuffedTurkey007,

Your #1 suggestion is how the new Golem works - he rewards a BP 100% of the time, the part (Chassis, System, or Helmet) is what's random. This is preferred in comparison to other bosses? Please comment. The argument becomes "I'd rather get (X) things I don't want vs nothing at all". What, as a player, would you prefer as a reward mechanic?

Additionally, the Golem rewards are also at mission end as opposed to a physical drop. Players, thoughts on this vs. what occurs for other bosses now?

 

Hmm, having 100% BP reward at the end of mission killed Golem replay value. It is good to obtain every BP in 4 runs, but Golem is boss with awesome mechanics and that generous rewarding kinda doesnt make people want to replay him for fun.

 

Including other BPs ( forma, smaller chance, <10% ) could made people do more Golem runs. Including other BPs in bosses drop rate might be a good idea, but only if there will be BPs drops after every boss kill.

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Hmm, having 100% BP reward at the end of mission killed Golem replay value. It is good to obtain every BP in 4 runs, but Golem is boss with awesome mechanics and that generous rewarding kinda doesnt make people want to replay him for fun.

 

Including other BPs ( forma, smaller chance, <10% ) could made people do more Golem runs. Including other BPs in bosses drop rate might be a good idea, but only if there will be BPs drops after every boss kill.

(my bolding) Huh? If he's fun to fight then fight him. So what if you got his drop? It just means you aren't forced to grind him out. Nothing's stopping you from enjoying the battle, unless the only joy you get is from loot rolls... he still drops plenty of mods and resources

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A token system, similar to GW2's dungeon tier weapon/armor token system.

 

Lets say you earn like 6 tokens for the first void you complete on that day and then only get 1-3 tokens after for that day.

 

Tokens are then used as a currency for prime parts/items.

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I myself love how the Golem/Lephantis BP rewards work. To be honest, even with the need for the keys and nav coordinates, it was easier and faster for me to get the BP parts for Nekros than any other (4 runs). It's not the same for everyone, of course, but it is a nice change at least knowing that every run you will definitely get a part, without the chance of the BP being lost in the environment. 

 

Also, the jerkish BP farmers that quit midway would be halted, like a bunch of people have said above.

 

Hmm, having 100% BP reward at the end of mission killed Golem replay value. It is good to obtain every BP in 4 runs, but Golem is boss with awesome mechanics and that generous rewarding kinda doesnt make people want to replay him for fun.

 

Including other BPs ( forma, smaller chance, <10% ) could made people do more Golem runs. Including other BPs in bosses drop rate might be a good idea, but only if there will be BPs drops after every boss kill.

 

Hm, I think it would be cool to add a couple of things, like Forma or like 5-10 Mutagen Samples (if they stay in Derelict only, in SMALL percentages. However, people wouldn't play him for fun then either. No one plays him for fun when they are trying to go for certain rewards, they will probably be rushing. 

 

Still, this is a good idea to keep replayability of Lephantis up, so that later/newer players who want to find people to help fight Golem will have people available who would actually WANT to go and help. Right now, you're right, after getting Nekros, people are not wanting to fight him as much. The only downside to 100% drops of only Nekros parts after so much grinding. lol

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1 - Put Mutagen Samples back into the Infested planets, but make them drop more frequently in the Derelicts. Then you've killed two birds with one stone; reduced the frustrating grind you introduced that has the forums in an uproar while still maintaining attractiveness of the Derelicts to players who have gotten everything from Golem.

 

2 - A token system for Void. Seriously, there are so many possible parts and blueprints in there that even with many different game modes and parts being exclusive to only a few it is still a mess and you'll never be able to get that one part or blueprint you actually want.

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A token system, similar to GW2's dungeon tier weapon/armor token system.

 

Lets say you earn like 6 tokens for the first void you complete on that day and then only get 1-3 tokens after for that day.

 

Tokens are then used as a currency for prime parts/items.

I used to play an MMO (may it rest in piece) that used this system rather successfully. The best thing about it is it made all content across a specific type (raids, normal missions, story arcs, trials) feel equally relevant. Each type rewarded 'merits' based on their difficulty which was used to purchase high end items. They later put in a system that made a specific set of these give bonus rewards for the week (however the bonus rewards could only be had so many times in that period) to encourage people to explore a larger variety of the content.

I think that could work rather well here with some tweaks (our alert system is sort of similar to the latter system)

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I suggested similar method for acquiring BP from bosses a long time ago. End of mission reward is the way to reduce frustration from the purple orb drop into somewhere inaccessible (like the Raptor) and prevent one player rush in, grab BP, run to extraction without dropping waypoint for BP.

It's good reward mechanic.

However, I don't see how PvE can exist without grind. Grind is the basic mechanic of this type of game. Warframe grind is bland and repetitive because of a few things.

1. No positive feedback for fighting higher level enemies. You don't get more EXP, you get mostly the same loot compared to low level, you don't see more enemy types (Grineer seems to be an exception, somewhat). Player wants a good reward for wading through numerous enemies. Killing 200 Grineer for 200 ferrite and a few mods isn't really encouraging.

2. As a loot game, Warframe's loot is too bland. While the crafting mechanic is alright by itself, it's nothing stellar. We have no use for those duplicate BPs in the inventory. Only thing we can do is convert them into credit.

- Give these duplicate more meaning. Give them various base stat per part. One helmet give you better energy pool but lower the health/shield, another helmet give you better weapon accuracy but lower power damage. Create a meta game around there duplicates. Make them useful, make them involve with how we build our frame.

- This idea can be expanded into weapons as well. Give mini bosses (Grineer heavygunner, Napalm, etc) chance to drop special weapon BP, a different version of weapons sold in the market. Burston with lower recoil but lower magazine capacity, Innate AP Braton with lower accuracy, High stagger chance Grakata with lower crit chance, etc. This will give player incentive to play the game, to kill these subbosses without skipping them with zorencopter.

3. Lack of build in Warframe. Other PvE games like Diablo, PoE, Torchlight have meta game that surround the concept of builds to create replayability. Essentially, it's made from three components.

- Base stat manipulation. Want Excalibur that can cast all day? Throw your points into energy. Want him to be a tank? Throw your points into shield/health.

- Variety of power. Warframe sorely lack this aspect. We have four powers for each frame. This give each frame no depth, no build, and no replayability. I think now we have like 14 frames, we have to create new set of powers for them. It doesn't have to be energy consuming power. Why not power that consume stamina like Melee blink (teleport for a short distance and slash the target), Vampire strike (activate this power will lower maximum stamina but allow player to draw shield/health from target hit with melee weapon), etc. It's time for Warframe to develop depth the game desere to have.

- Variety in gear. Current mod system and weapons mentioned in the second point should cover this up. Also, there should be an option not to carry all three weapons into the mission with some benefit like faster movement speed, lower energy cost for power, etc.

4. Better/more vent for high level players. I think using boss mode as a vent for high level player is one good idea that DE haven't touch after all these time. Grineer boss mode will rotate each Grineer boss to fight a group of 4 Tenno. First round pass and the boss will start teaming up like Phobos' Vor/Kril duo. While high level survival and defense are now acting as a pseudo endgame, they work similar in term of mechanic.

I think grind is not a problem. How to make player doesn't feel like grind is the key. Variety is the key. Reward is the key.

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I think a guarantee drop for the blue print layouts is needed. I personally spent days just running War on Mars to get the Mag suit, only to have rushers ruin the runs. I am sure there are many times when the one person who ran out in front of everyone ended up throwing the blue print some place far off. 

 

Just a thought but if the rewards are guaranteed then maybe the stalker can be more regulated as to when it would appear. By making blueprint drops more accessible then boss farming would just be on the same level as continuously playing a defense or survival (those being my favorite) then those who want to fight the stalker more have a better chance of seeing him.

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Hmm, having 100% BP reward at the end of mission killed Golem replay value. It is good to obtain every BP in 4 runs, but Golem is boss with awesome mechanics and that generous rewarding kinda doesnt make people want to replay him for fun.

 

Including other BPs ( forma, smaller chance, <10% ) could made people do more Golem runs. Including other BPs in bosses drop rate might be a good idea, but only if there will be BPs drops after every boss kill.

 

That is a fantastic idea.  With credit payouts seemingly reduced, with each boss DE could either link a Clan Tech resource or a chance at Weapon BP's/Parts.  Some bosses already do this.  For instance, every time I've done the boss fight on Phobos I've come out with something. 20 or so runs and I got all the parts/BP's they could drop.  That felt reasonable.  My craptastic luck on Sedna meant 100+ runs to get all the parts, with likely 50 or so runs not getting me anything (although there was talk to RNG system was bugged then).  That felt extreme.

 

Honestly if every player got 5-15 runs out of each boss, I think that would feel fine.  Some might get lucky, some might not.  And if they added rare chance for Forma, Reactor, or Catalyst BP's for the "hardcore" bosses (or Weapon parts/BP's on "lesser" bosses), then it would definitely give a chance for reward to Players who go back and help others play the boss fights.

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Every boss fight in each planets and moons or what not should get BP from 100% to make viable instead having them bosses drop or what not...i already know everyone thinks that would make the game to easy...yeah great....i like the j2000 Golem...after u beat him and go extraction and get the bp was an awesome idea and should have been like that in every bosses in each planet to begin with....Grindiness is just a waste of time -_-.

 

But listen...instead having the Bosses drop the bp loot....have it like what you did to the Lephantis (J2000-Golem) in the Orokin Derelict.....it makes things so much easier...get the BP....and increase some of the most super ultra rare mods that some people are still trying to get especially those who still didnt get a split Chamber yet after they did the HARD Reset....or whatever...

Edited by edryuu
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One other thing I wanted to point out that I personally enjoy from the new Golem fight (I know he has a new name now but i cant spell it yet) is that in addition to always "dropping" a BP at the end of the match he seems to have a very high (if not 100%) chance of dropping mods and resources, and in general he drops rare resources.  I have gotten some nano spores from him but I think only once.  I personally would be a lot more likely to farm other bosses if they had similar drop rates for resources. To me it is almost more annoying to spend some time on a boss and end up with only a tiny amount of nano spores or some other common resource than it is to get nothing.   (disregard this if they have changed other bosses while I wasn't looking)

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StuffedTurkey007,

Your #1 suggestion is how the new Golem works - he rewards a BP 100% of the time, the part (Chassis, System, or Helmet) is what's random. This is preferred in comparison to other bosses? Please comment. The argument becomes "I'd rather get (X) things I don't want vs nothing at all". What, as a player, would you prefer as a reward mechanic?

Additionally, the Golem rewards are also at mission end as opposed to a physical drop. Players, thoughts on this vs. what occurs for other bosses now?

 

 

Better 100000% as rewards.

 

In addition, it would allow you to 'tailor' the drops towards each player, ex: for every Nekros Helmet BP you have in your inventory, you have 2% less chance to get a helmet drop.

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StuffedTurkey007,

Your #1 suggestion is how the new Golem works - he rewards a BP 100% of the time, the part (Chassis, System, or Helmet) is what's random. This is preferred in comparison to other bosses? Please comment. The argument becomes "I'd rather get (X) things I don't want vs nothing at all". What, as a player, would you prefer as a reward mechanic?

Additionally, the Golem rewards are also at mission end as opposed to a physical drop. Players, thoughts on this vs. what occurs for other bosses now?

 

 

I absolutely love not having to worry about purple orbs and host migration. A+ for the end of mission BP reward.

 

My argument wasn't that I'd rather get credits than nothing at all, but rather that if I get a BP every time, I'm going to complete my frame with less grind and less frustration from multiple fruitless runs that yielded nothing. The credits from duplicates is a nice bonus though. It would feel less "pointless" if I beat a boss and at least got control modules and a duplicate chassis for credits.

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1 - Purposefully design the game to be based around grind to slow players down from burning through your (limited) content too quickly.

2 - Repeatedly state in LiveStreams that the game isn't 'meant to be about grind'

3 - ?????

4 - PROFIT! =D

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1 - Purposefully design the game to be based around grind to slow players down from burning through your (limited) content too quickly.

2 - Repeatedly state in LiveStreams that the game isn't 'meant to be about grind'

3 - ?????

4 - PROFIT! =D

 

You're welcome to your opinion, but really?  She's taken the time to come in here and ask for our feedback regarding their new implementations.  Most forum users beg for DE to take notice of their suggestions; posts like yours aren't exactly encouraging them to keep coming back.

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