Iron Skin locks players out of melee secondary effects

[RavingRoman]

I just gotta ask and hear it from a dev. Melee blocking currently works in a way that the effects only proc whenever health is also affected. 

The way this currently works locks out one Rhino from using a set of weapons that functions off of a fundemental mechanic (Like no other frame) when using his defensive skill

Is this arbitrary mechanic intentional, or will someone do something about it?

[Xzorn]

Iron Skin has not benefited from "When-Hit" effects or any source of mitigation for 5 years. I doubt anything will change.

It's unfortunate he can't get mitigation from blocking but he also doesn't really need it so whatever. It's more an argument for making sense.

[RavingRoman]

20 hours ago, Xzorn said:

It's unfortunate he can't get mitigation from blocking but he also doesn't really need it so whatever. It's more an argument for making sense.

I would disagree because it looks ridiculous from a physical standpoint, all the more when even tankier frames than him can benefit from the health mitigation. 

It's not about whether or not it's needed, but the fact he is arbitrarily locked out of fundamental actions everyone else has access to when none of them suffer that same problem in any capacity. 

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, RavingRoman said:

I would disagree because it looks ridiculous from a physical standpoint, all the more when even tankier frames than him can benefit from the health mitigation. 

It's not about whether or not it's needed, but the fact he is arbitrarily locked out of fundamental actions everyone else has access to when none of them suffer that same problem in any capacity. 

 

He doesn't benefit from things health based frames get but he also doesn't suffer from their flaws either.

His Iron Skin doesn't suffer from Damage modifier double dips. It's what helps solidify him as 3rd / 4th best Solo eHP tank in spite of getting no mitigation from buffs, mods or melee blocking. In groups things change but they change for a lot of frames and can't really be compared because we can stack eHP above enemy damage output at lvl 9,999 so there's no where to go at this point. The game has ended when it comes to group synergy.

My argument for melee blocking mitigation is a simple layers of damage concept. Blocks are before something hits you. Simple as that.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

7 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

He doesn't benefit from things health based frames get but he also doesn't suffer from their flaws either.

His Iron Skin doesn't suffer from Damage modifier double dips. It's what helps solidify him as 3rd / 4th best Solo eHP tank in spite of getting no mitigation from buffs, mods or melee blocking. In groups things change but they change for a lot of frames and can't really be compared because we can stack eHP above enemy damage output at lvl 9,999 so there's no where to go at this point. The game has ended when it comes to group synergy. 

My argument for melee blocking mitigation is a simple layers of damage concept. Blocks are before something hits you. Simple as that.

I think OP is less concerned about Rhino not being able to Block Damage to his skin

 

so much as, being unable to utilize Melee features that Depend on Blocking, such as some Combos, and some special effects such as Sydon

or rather, I would be...

 

[Xzorn]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

I think OP is less concerned about Rhino not being able to Block Damage to his skin

so much as, being unable to utilize Melee features that Depend on Blocking, such as some Combos, and some special effects such as Sydon

or rather, I would be...

 

Perhaps, I can't fully tell what they want. It struck me they were more concerned things like Adaptation and Arcane Avenger don't work where I'd rather not have every frame use the same mechanics and appreciate that Iron Skin is unique. Something like Sydon not working though is related to my argument on how blocking is layered for Iron Skin and I agree that mechanics based on blocking don't work as they should for Rhino. Dodge Mitigation is also on the table but the other stuff I don't mind because he gets Pros and Cons while being strong and having unique interactions like being the only frame that can make use of Health Conversion without spewing Health orbs constantly.

[RavingRoman]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

His Iron Skin doesn't suffer from Damage modifier double dips.

I would argue that Inaros also gets this with his augment to his scarab swarm.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

so much as, being unable to utilize Melee features that Depend on Blocking, such as some Combos, and some special effects such as Sydon

or rather, I would be...

You nailed it on the head

35 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

It struck me they were more concerned things like Adaptation and Arcane Avenger don't work where I'd rather not have every frame use the same mechanics and appreciate that Iron Skin is unique.

I have no problems with the arcanes not being useful to him. Arcanes are something that is internal to a warframe. But I think it's odd that you cannot benefit in any form from holding a shield out in front of you because...? 

You can say it's redundant, but the same argument can be made for every other tanky frame, and real life knights who wear full plate armor, yet carry a heater shields for blows their armor can't take. 

And as someone who has used Rhino's Iron Skin for years, there comes a threshold of enemy level that you will just get vaporized before you get the chance to recast your iron skin is gone while nearly every other tank (not sure about Nezha) can recast their defensive abilities without any gaps in between provided you have the energy. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by RavingRoman

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

The root of the problem is that we can't Manually Block anymore...

 

DE either needs to revert that, or fix all the unintended side effects that they overlooked like OP's example...

 

sadly they're taking time off from melee 2.9 -> 3.0 to 'focus on other things' at the moment

*rolleyes*

 

[RavingRoman]

Just now, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

The root of the problem is that we can't Manually Block anymore...

 

DE either needs to revert that, or fix all the unintended side effects that they overlooked like OP's example...

 

sadly they're taking time off from melee 2.9 -> 3.0 to 'focus on other things' at the moment

*rolleyes*

 

I agree with you. I normally use Guardian Derision to help trigger my Arcane Guardian so I can bolster my starting armor value for Iron Skin. 

Now I have to walk up in front of a whole squad and risk getting killed to do that. 

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, RavingRoman said:

I would argue that Inaros also gets this with his augment to his scarab swarm.

 

It's not as much to do with status effects though that does play a role in the reliability of a frame to tank. It's more the damage modifier double dips I mentioned. Because Inaros is armor based when he takes positive modifier damage like Puncture or Toxic his armor value is reduced in addition to taking the bonus damage. Puncture's +50% modifier effectively halves Inaros' eHP in addition to doing +50% more damage while Rhino simply takes +50% more damage. Both being Ferrite based but Rhino uses a health pool and not an armor value. Rhino is even further resistant to Toxic damage because when an Armor based frame takes Toxic damage it's adding modifiers against both +25% Ferrite and +50% Flesh but Rhino only takes the +25% for Ferrite. Mods like Adaptation will help resist the bonus damage but will not reduce the armor double dip effect.

1 hour ago, RavingRoman said:

I have no problems with the arcanes not being useful to him. Arcanes are something that is internal to a warframe. But I think it's odd that you cannot benefit in any form from holding a shield out in front of you because...?

I agree. I mentioned that I didn't agree with blocking mechanics on Iron Skin but he hasn't benefited from blocking in the past. Ever.

 

1 hour ago, RavingRoman said:

And as someone who has used Rhino's Iron Skin for years, there comes a threshold of enemy level that you will just get vaporized before you get the chance to recast your iron skin is gone while nearly every other tank (not sure about Nezha) can recast their defensive abilities without any gaps in between provided you have the energy. 

You have to go pretty far in levels before Rhino has trouble with setup time on Iron Skin. It takes lvl 400+ enemies to stress his 120-200k eHP. I'm guessing you're either a fellow endurance runner or aren't pushing his Iron Skin to it's limits because I was serious about 3rd or 4th best Solo tank.

The only two I know can beat him are Trinity at 200k and Nidus at 100k with good CC. Either way, I'm all for Rhino benefiting from Block and even Dodge. I think it's just because of lazy coding. Maybe we'll see it if they ever go the next step on Melee 2.0 but you have my vote on that part.

[RavingRoman]

@Xzorn You've got my vote. I agree with the differences between armor and damage mitigation, they're some of the reasons that I prefer Iron Skin over others. Also true, I am thinking lazy coding is what is the source of the problem. 

I do a few solo endurance runs (being able to pause is a blessing cause.. pizza) so I do have a tendency to get eviscerated when the enemy levels gets too high or the skin depletes in the wrong place. 

I actually hope that DE changes the coding from health mitigation to using a melee weapon as an object that interferes with collision or something.