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FatherGrimm

The New Nullifier Paradigm = Unfun

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19 minutes ago, 844448 said:

What if I tell you that you're not ready for warframe? Maybe honing your reaction speed and eye/hand coordination on lower levels can help? Or playing some games with slower pace (contra and super contra help in this case)

(If this is a case where you spend your time leeching exp on hydron so your movements become dull, it's on you)

What if I tell you that not everyone who plays Warframe is a fifteen year old hopped up on Red Bull?  And point out that for some people, "not fast enough to dodge three Ancients trying to hookshot them in the back" is as fast as they're ever going to get?

Not every damn game needs to be "eSports ready" where the average reaction speed needs to be measured in microseconds.  And harpoon attacks (and moa stomps) are kind of BS because of how the game implements them.  The AI gets to calculate exactly where it thinks you will be, with no "stormtrooper spray" like on normal weapons.  Unless you normally jitter around like a gnat having a seizure, it's *very* good at predicting where you're going to be.  And more importantly, hitting those enemies with a stun or crowd control power won't stop it.  I've been churning through Derelict Defense missions with Khora to get the last 1500 Mutagen Samples for my solo dojo Hema research.  (Because it's something to do.)  And the Ancients can *absolutely* nail me with their harpoon even *AFTER* they've been ensnared.

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4 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

...nail me with their harpoon even *AFTER* they've been ensnared.

And stunned and knocked down, AND through a wall/corner. That's "fun".

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1 minute ago, EmberStar said:

What if I tell you that not everyone who plays Warframe is a fifteen year old hopped up on Red Bull?  And point out that for some people, "not fast enough to dodge three Ancients trying to hookshot them in the back" is as fast as they're ever going to get?

Not every damn game needs to be "eSports ready" where the average reaction speed needs to be measured in microseconds.  And harpoon attacks (and moa stomps) are kind of BS because of how the game implements them.  The AI gets to calculate exactly where it thinks you will be, with no "stormtrooper spray" like on normal weapons.  Unless you normally jitter around like a gnat having a seizure, it's *very* good at predicting where you're going to be.  And more importantly, hitting those enemies with a stun or crowd control power won't stop it.  I've been churning through Derelict Defense missions with Khora to get the last 1500 Mutagen Samples for my solo dojo Hema research.  (Because it's something to do.)  And the Ancients can *absolutely* nail me with their harpoon even *AFTER* they've been ensnared.

What if I tell you I play the game more often being extremely sleepy than not? They have this stormtrooper spray if you don't stand still

MOA stomps have 1.5 seconds for the MOA to lift one leg before the stomp happens, maybe you want to try solo on venus or phobos and observe a bit. Harpoon attack is no different, you can see the rope coming at you and you can roll sideways to avoid it

Perhaps, a solo strolling like I often do can help you understand the enemies

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I'm fine with the melee Nullifiers.  A while back I actually suggested them as an alternative to the original sniper Nullifiers everyone was complaining about.  I figured a melee rushing Nullifier would be preferable to the camping combo of Corrupted Nullifier, Healer & Bombard/Gunner that was the focus of peoples ire back then.  Now that they are actually a thing, I think I was right.  They rush forward forcing us to deal with them but also enabling us to remove them easily instead of sitting at the back covering a deadly band of allies.  From my experience of the new mission (soloing the 4000 points required for Glaxion Vandal with Chroma Prime) the melee Nullies weren't a big deal.  The bubble is fairly obvious so I either switched to my secondary weapon to bring it down or just hopped around and over them while my Djinn's Deth Machine Rifle popped the bubble.  The far more irritating thing was the power deactivating wave the Demolysts have as that seemed to have little warning and would drop my Vex Armour at the exact time I needed it's dps boost.

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Nullifies should just A. Prevent casting abilities. B. Cleanse enemies of being affected by Warframe abilities. They should not remove self-buffs on Warframes or allies, and shouldn't disable most non-offensive channeling abilities, like Renewal. They should disable Exalted weapons I suppose, and stuff like World on Fire, but not things like Adsorb or Renewal. I primarily say disabled Exalted Weapons because they make it particularly easy to kill a Nullifier.

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33 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Maybe you want to take a look at other games, because so far I can't find a game that gives you everything just like that unless you can help me find one game that doesn't have anything locked behind some hard content and being honest, warframe is already very easy (unless the problem is you don't really know how to mod because I don't use any riven or event limited mods at all and still okay), there's no uber-optimizing needed. Perhaps more solo training will help

 

If knockdown and interruption are hard to avoid when you're close, maybe try not to get too close?

Look at any non-online game and you'll find it has difficulty settings and a rather large amount of purposefully-abusable mechanics (like in Dark Souls) which you can use to get past any 'challenge'. Now, this of course doesn't mean that such things easily translate into online games, but you can achieve that by having easier content and harder content with the same rewards but different drop rates. Incentive to run the harder stuff while allowing the easier stuff to be done, theoretically satisfying both the people who want to be Gods and those who want a challenge. My personal skill level does not play into this.

I was saying that ancient grapples aren't disrupted by knockdown, the grapple can't be interrupted and that the grapple is hard to avoid when close, almost impossibly so if you're not prepared. Trying to not get close isn't much of a help in a horde game that spawns them everywhere.

59 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

There is no hard content in the entire game.

I recommend you go for the 'no mod' challenge.

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32 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

No tougher than an elite detron crewman except the bubble that turns them into a tank, buffer, ability nullifier, and energy drain if you enter that bubble. Walking up to them is suicide at higher levels when you're reliant on abilities for sustainability.

I'd prefer they nerfed the ability nullification. Make it pause abilities rather than disable them, or make it a 99% resistance rather than outright ability stoppage. Give them the role of tank, or buffer, or ability nullifier, or energy drain. Don't give them all four of those at once. Give them one or two and give those other roles to some other enemies.

and that was my point. I quoted someone calling one side snowflakes, so I did the same by calling the other side snowflakes while slightly mimicking the quote.

ok im in the sim as im typing this listening to the vapos hit me he has no armor just health and shields i will use my exergis to destroy the bubble this vapos is level 135

  • it took 3-4 shots depending on my muti shot an automatic/fast semi auto weapon could be better

i will now go get and use my stubba to destroy the bubble

  • stubba did it fairly quickly since the nullifier bubble has a min and max damage it can take i was probably do min to it or maybe abit above but took like a second in a half 

ill use a semi pistol now akvasto prime to destroy the bubble

  • that took four shots to destroy 

i am now standing in the bubble with energy siphon on then ill go take it off 

  • still gaining energy at the same rate 
  • not losing energy

i will now kill the nuli with my exergis then my pistols (AkvastoP) then my melee tatsu 

  • one shot, 3 shot, and 4 swings 

they are not a tank a buffer yes since the shield can eat some hits before dropping for them not many but some allowing them to shoot at you and they do have eximus variants that can give benefits but they are fairly squishy the eximus variant is abit tougher with increased health now an eximus variant of them yeah that's a tank in just having high health. But they can only really help other melee units due to being melee they have to rush you so they only protect melee ones and indirectly ranged ones. Their bubble however is quite small so if you got a automatic weapon or a semi you can jackobs as fast as you can pull the trigger you can drop it quick and probably move back or around them to kite while holding your survival buffs 

as for your nullification idea i like it personally id go for something like this allies (corpus) inside the bubble gain the equivalent of the ancient disrupt power effect buff it has heavy reduced duration and damage effect entry to the bubble puts your abilities on stand by abilities lose effect till you leave the bubble the eximus variants can cover tank on a basic since they have more health and shields and buffer or energy drain depending on their variant i think they have access to leech since its a melee unit. Abilities will go though the bubble this way but will be shortened in duration and effectiveness dramatically damage will still hurt them but not as much and will only last little bit rather then just saying No and when they do reach your nullified abilities put on hold and paused till you move or deal with the problem 

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55 minutes ago, 844448 said:

What if I tell you I play the game more often being extremely sleepy than not? They have this stormtrooper spray if you don't stand still

MOA stomps have 1.5 seconds for the MOA to lift one leg before the stomp happens, maybe you want to try solo on venus or phobos and observe a bit. Harpoon attack is no different, you can see the rope coming at you and you can roll sideways to avoid it

Perhaps, a solo strolling like I often do can help you understand the enemies

Being sleepy doesn't necessarily impair your reaction time. In fact, if I remember correctly, staying up long enough can pump your body full of adrenaline to keep you awake which might actually help your reaction time (I don't actually know though, don't quote me).
That's not stormtrooper spray. That's dodging. Their accuracy is so ridiculously good when you're not moving it's suicide to stop moving (which is very bad design since people need breaks (short ones to re-situate themselves) and my break shouldn't be 'I've vaporized everything in the room' since I can't really do that in endless modes like survival without a nuke frame).

The sheer amount of clutter on screen is going to prevent anyone with a one-track mind like me from paying attention to everything at once and always being a perfect beast at everything I do. If I'm shooting something, I want to be focused on shooting it, not countering the nullifiers, shockwaves, energy leeches, and arbitration drones at the same time as shooting that thing. Sure, I can generally keep up, but all it takes is one mistake when outside a tank frame, and mistakes will be plentiful with all that clutter.

7 minutes ago, seprent said:

ok im in the sim as im typing this listening to the vapos hit me he has no armor just health and shields i will use my exergis to destroy the bubble this vapos is level 135

  • it took 3-4 shots depending on my muti shot an automatic/fast semi auto weapon could be better

i will now go get and use my stubba to destroy the bubble

  • stubba did it fairly quickly since the nullifier bubble has a min and max damage it can take i was probably do min to it or maybe abit above but took like a second in a half 

ill use a semi pistol now akvasto prime to destroy the bubble

  • that took four shots to destroy 

i am now standing in the bubble with energy siphon on then ill go take it off 

  • still gaining energy at the same rate 
  • not losing energy

i will now kill the nuli with my exergis then my pistols (AkvastoP) then my melee tatsu 

  • one shot, 3 shot, and 4 swings 

they are not a tank a buffer yes since the shield can eat some hits before dropping for them not many but some allowing them to shoot at you and they do have eximus variants that can give benefits but they are fairly squishy the eximus variant is abit tougher with increased health now an eximus variant of them yeah that's a tank in just having high health. But they can only really help other melee units due to being melee they have to rush you so they only protect melee ones and indirectly ranged ones. Their bubble however is quite small so if you got a automatic weapon or a semi you can jackobs as fast as you can pull the trigger you can drop it quick and probably move back or around them to kite while holding your survival buffs 

as for your nullification idea i like it personally id go for something like this allies (corpus) inside the bubble gain the equivalent of the ancient disrupt power effect buff it has heavy reduced duration and damage effect entry to the bubble puts your abilities on stand by abilities lose effect till you leave the bubble the eximus variants can cover tank on a basic since they have more health and shields and buffer or energy drain depending on their variant i think they have access to leech since its a melee unit. Abilities will go though the bubble this way but will be shortened in duration and effectiveness dramatically damage will still hurt them but not as much and will only last little bit rather then just saying No and when they do reach your nullified abilities put on hold and paused till you move or deal with the problem 

I see now that I may have miscommunicated some things. First off, the 'energy drain' I mentioned was from their nullifying of abilities, meaning you have to recast them, meaning you lose energy. Secondly, they are a tank. They take more hits than those around them. That's a tank. Sure, you can annihilate them quickly, but not relatively when everything else is instantly dead. They're even tankier against certain attacks (abilities). Thirdly, they're a 'buffer' as in a buff-giver, like the shield ospreys. They make those around them tankier by hiding them in their bubble, preventing abilities from working (and requiring you take down the bubble first before dealing damage from outside it). They also indirectly buff everyone behind them by blocking line-of-fire and punch-through (but at least abilities work on those).

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23 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

Look at any non-online game and you'll find it has difficulty settings and a rather large amount of purposefully-abusable mechanics (like in Dark Souls) which you can use to get past any 'challenge'. Now, this of course doesn't mean that such things easily translate into online games, but you can achieve that by having easier content and harder content with the same rewards but different drop rates. Incentive to run the harder stuff while allowing the easier stuff to be done, theoretically satisfying both the people who want to be Gods and those who want a challenge. My personal skill level does not play into this.

I was saying that ancient grapples aren't disrupted by knockdown, the grapple can't be interrupted and that the grapple is hard to avoid when close, almost impossibly so if you're not prepared. Trying to not get close isn't much of a help in a horde game that spawns them everywhere.

You can stay at low level for a while then, nobody forces you to do high level things if you don't want to so you can't speak for me about nullifiers being a problem

 

I'm not able to avoid the grapple at close range and spawning them everywhere isn't something big of a problem, you have many things to deal with that

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9 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

Being sleepy doesn't necessarily impair your reaction time. In fact, if I remember correctly, staying up long enough can pump your body full of adrenaline to keep you awake which might actually help your reaction time (I don't actually know though, don't quote me).
That's not stormtrooper spray. That's dodging. Their accuracy is so ridiculously good when you're not moving it's suicide to stop moving (which is very bad design since people need breaks (short ones to re-situate themselves) and my break shouldn't be 'I've vaporized everything in the room' since I can't really do that in endless modes like survival without a nuke frame).

The sheer amount of clutter on screen is going to prevent anyone with a one-track mind like me from paying attention to everything at once and always being a perfect beast at everything I do. If I'm shooting something, I want to be focused on shooting it, not countering the nullifiers, shockwaves, energy leeches, and arbitration drones at the same time as shooting that thing. Sure, I can generally keep up, but all it takes is one mistake when outside a tank frame, and mistakes will be plentiful with all that clutter.

I see now that I may have miscommunicated some things. First off, the 'energy drain' I mentioned was from their nullifying of abilities, meaning you have to recast them, meaning you lose energy. Secondly, they are a tank. They take more hits than those around them. That's a tank. Sure, you can annihilate them quickly, but not relatively when everything else is instantly dead. They're even tankier against certain attacks (abilities). Thirdly, they're a 'buffer' as in a buff-giver, like the shield ospreys. They make those around them tankier by hiding them in their bubble, preventing abilities from working (and requiring you take down the bubble first before dealing damage from outside it). They also indirectly buff everyone behind them by blocking line-of-fire and punch-through (but at least abilities work on those).

I'm really slow when being very sleepy, borderline garbage so I think you may want to avoid high level if you can't handle it and even just running around reduce their accuracy, more when you're bullet jumping

I guess you can stay at low level and get any hard to get things by trading platinum to get mods like adaptation if you're one-track minded, you have multiple ways to get things

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2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

You can stay at low level for a while then, nobody forces you to do high level things if you don't want to so you can't speak for me about nullifiers being a problem

 

I'm not able to avoid the grapple at close range and spawning them everywhere isn't something big of a problem, you have many things to deal with that

I can't stay at a low level if I want some important things like arcanes or Adaptation, or Rivens (though, granted, none of these are Corpus-specific. It is still a problem when they do show up, though.) I can 100% speak to you about nullifiers being a problem so long as they spawn. They're not fun to play against, high or low level. Their difficulty, while somewhat relevant, is irrelevant to the fact that they're not fun to fight. Most people who like them only do so because the nullifiers "increase" difficulty and require you to not be brain-dead, but there are plenty of other methods of getting a similar result without an enemy that is so irritating.

Also, huh? You're saying you can't avoid the grapple, them spawning everywhere isn't a problem because... why? They unavoidably grapple you? And what things do I have to 'deal' with grapple other than killing the enemy or being invisible? I can't stop their grapple with knockdown. I can't interrupt their grapple unless they die. I'm not sure what you're saying about the grapple.

Just now, 844448 said:

I'm really slow when being very sleepy, borderline garbage so I think you may want to avoid high level if you can't handle it and even just running around reduce their accuracy, more when you're bullet jumping

I guess you can stay at low level and get any hard to get things by trading platinum to get mods like adaptation if you're one-track minded, you have multiple ways to get things

For the record, I already have the mods and stuff I want, but it was a slog getting there. I'm not bad enough to not be able to do hard content. However, for me, that content is actually hard unlike how others say 'there's no hard content in Warframe' and so on. If they want to add harder content for all the people who complain about how easy Warframe is and lock substantial rewards behind that content, I will disapprove because I will have to be carried or follow a guide (I already follow a stupid amount of guides for Warframe). 

Using platinum should not be a requirement to acquire anything of meaningful substance in the game. Platinum is a premium currency. Cosmetics for platinum is fine. If the only way for me to actually acquire something is platinum and that something has an important effect on gameplay, the game's no longer F2P. Sure, I can technically get it via certain content, but it doesn't matter if I can't reasonably complete that content.

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It's odd that people just complain about things in the forum but when you go into the game no one cares, maybe because it's not hard to deal with them?

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3 hours ago, Kylo. said:

What are they gonna do? Throw their melee weapon at you?

Are you asking them to throw more Corpus Trenchers at us?

 

Nully Corpus Trencher....

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1 minute ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

It's odd that people just complain about things in the forum but when you go into the game no one cares, maybe because it's not hard to deal with them?

What, you want random people in public matches just start complaining about things? I'll complain/agree/argue about a problem if someone brings it up, but I'm not going to scream at random people about all the problems with Warframe. I assume most people are somewhat the same, or just don't feel like talking.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

It's odd that people just complain about things in the forum but when you go into the game no one cares, maybe because it's not hard to deal with them?

I play private and avoid corpus nodes for the most part. S'why you won't hear me complaining about them in matches. 

Would you rather public matches be filled with people *@##$ing about nullifiers? Game's already getting enough community issues, surely it doesn't need one more. 

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2 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

How wonderful that'd be as a general mod. Or at least one for a non-garbage weapon. 

wftAdtd.gif

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Imo, nullifiers should pause (and disable activation of) abilities while players are inside the bubbles and not outright cancel them, that alone would make them a lot less frustrating to deal with.

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frustrated head GIFNullifiers just shouldn't PURGE all buffs but only PAUSE them until you get out of the field - then it will be ok and challenging. The unfun part is the need to recast the buffs every time.

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I'm getting flashbacks going through this thread.

Looking back at when Nullifiers were first added and all the years of feedback, anger, and community infighting to get this enemy removed or hell, just tweaked, right after it's nice to see that DE learned... Absolutely nothing from it. I bet when they added that tin can above the field people thought they had "won," and wouldn't see this sort of thing again.

So who's ready for another 3 years of talking about Nullifiers?

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1 hour ago, Jaysus41 said:

I'm getting flashbacks going through this thread.

Looking back at when Nullifiers were first added and all the years of feedback, anger, and community infighting to get this enemy removed or hell, just tweaked, right after it's nice to see that DE learned... Absolutely nothing from it. I bet when they added that tin can above the field people thought they had "won," and wouldn't see this sort of thing again.

So who's ready for another 3 years of talking about Nullifiers?

Sad part is it's not even that hard a fix. Either have the null bubble pause/block abilities, or have it just be a null bubble- remove the shield component. 

Of course, nah, never gonna happen. 

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37 minutes ago, Jaysus41 said:

I'm getting flashbacks going through this thread.

Looking back at when Nullifiers were first added and all the years of feedback, anger, and community infighting to get this enemy removed or hell, just tweaked, right after it's nice to see that DE learned... Absolutely nothing from it. I bet when they added that tin can above the field people thought they had "won," and wouldn't see this sort of thing again.

So who's ready for another 3 years of talking about Nullifiers?

And people thought DE listens. Lol

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6 hours ago, Kylo. said:

How are Melee Nullifiers annoying? They can't shoot you, you need to watch out for them a bit and can't just mindlessly play but other than that they can't do anything.

They teleport to you or pull you to them if they are just melee enemies with nullifiers.

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4 hours ago, 844448 said:

What if I tell you I play the game more often being extremely sleepy than not? They have this stormtrooper spray if you don't stand still

MOA stomps have 1.5 seconds for the MOA to lift one leg before the stomp happens, maybe you want to try solo on venus or phobos and observe a bit. Harpoon attack is no different, you can see the rope coming at you and you can roll sideways to avoid it

Perhaps, a solo strolling like I often do can help you understand the enemies

Perhaps learning to grow up might help you more.  I play exclusively solo, and have since the Founders pack was something you can still buy.  Thanks for the patronizing "advice" though, I know just where to file it.

-*flush!*-

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