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The New Nullifier Paradigm = Unfun

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2 hours ago, Keylan118 said:

What, you want random people in public matches just start complaining about things? I'll complain/agree/argue about a problem if someone brings it up, but I'm not going to scream at random people about all the problems with Warframe. I assume most people are somewhat the same, or just don't feel like talking.

Plus, what good would it do in the middle of a mission?  If I stop to type how I think Nullifiers and "every enemy with a harpoon attack" aren't a great design... what would most likely happen is a Nullifier or Ancient walking up behind me and fragging me just to help illustrate the point.

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5 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Plus, what good would it do in the middle of a mission?  If I stop to type how I think Nullifiers and "every enemy with a harpoon attack" aren't a great design... what would most likely happen is a Nullifier or Ancient walking up behind me and fragging me just to help illustrate the point.

I didn't mention public games, why don't you ask your guild or even the general chat(even though it's chaotic you can still start a conversation).

Serious question: do you have trouble with the harpoon attack? Seriously? 

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

I didn't mention public games, why don't you ask your guild or even the general chat(even though it's chaotic you can still start a conversation).

Serious question: do you have trouble with the harpoon attack? Seriously? 

I don't need to "have trouble with it" to think that it's a bad design.  I play solo, in a solo guild.  So I'll just type to myself then?  Oh, right, I already know what I think of those enemies.  General chat is... even more pointless than continuing to talk to you, though only barely.

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The number of options available to deal with nullifier-type enemies is high. The least of which is moving out of position to avoid having them nullify your abilities, should you not be able to deal with them right away. That's not too much to ask and if you're going to complain that it tears down your defenses or leaves you unable to defend a position then that's the entire point.

I'm tired of people saying they're bad design. Having a counter to our frame powers isn't, "bad design." They have a very clear area where your powers don't work, you have numerous options to destroy that area (or them, directly) and you can see them coming from a mile away. Not being able to deal with that doesn't make it, "bad design."

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Posted (edited)

The issue of nullifiers for me is that they are too common. I feel that the nullies (that shuts down every power) appears too frequently and should be treated more as a mini boss, like the nox. Instead comba/scrambus should be more prevalent, or the same as regular nullies, since they only shutdown specific types of powers (perception, buff-debuff, mobility, and damage according to the wiki), and you can shoot through their bubbles, and maybe modify their stats a little to balance out their frequency.

IDK, im fine with how nulifiers are doing their job, my issues with how they are have already been voiced by other people. 

Edited by pyrotech63

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The Anthem team.. I mean DE.. is not about their players having fun playing their broken game these days.

I cannot remember the last time I logged in to collect the daily reward because it's just not worth it - it's no longer any fun to play.

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5 minutes ago, Shadow-Spawn said:

The Anthem team.. I mean DE.. is not about their players having fun playing their broken game these days.

I cannot remember the last time I logged in to collect the daily reward because it's just not worth it - it's no longer any fun to play.

Hyperbole is not constructive. I probably have more issues with DE and Warframe than most of the players here combined but even I wouldn't compare them to EA Bioware.

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6 minutes ago, Shadow-Spawn said:

The Anthem team.. I mean DE.. is not about their players having fun playing their broken game these days.

I cannot remember the last time I logged in to collect the daily reward because it's just not worth it - it's no longer any fun to play.

De becoming ea confirmed. I mean they don't listen to us anyway anymore.

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5 hours ago, Keylan118 said:

I can't stay at a low level if I want some important things like arcanes or Adaptation, or Rivens (though, granted, none of these are Corpus-specific. It is still a problem when they do show up, though.) I can 100% speak to you about nullifiers being a problem so long as they spawn. They're not fun to play against, high or low level. Their difficulty, while somewhat relevant, is irrelevant to the fact that they're not fun to fight. Most people who like them only do so because the nullifiers "increase" difficulty and require you to not be brain-dead, but there are plenty of other methods of getting a similar result without an enemy that is so irritating.

Also, huh? You're saying you can't avoid the grapple, them spawning everywhere isn't a problem because... why? They unavoidably grapple you? And what things do I have to 'deal' with grapple other than killing the enemy or being invisible? I can't stop their grapple with knockdown. I can't interrupt their grapple unless they die. I'm not sure what you're saying about the grapple.

For the record, I already have the mods and stuff I want, but it was a slog getting there. I'm not bad enough to not be able to do hard content. However, for me, that content is actually hard unlike how others say 'there's no hard content in Warframe' and so on. If they want to add harder content for all the people who complain about how easy Warframe is and lock substantial rewards behind that content, I will disapprove because I will have to be carried or follow a guide (I already follow a stupid amount of guides for Warframe). 

Using platinum should not be a requirement to acquire anything of meaningful substance in the game. Platinum is a premium currency. Cosmetics for platinum is fine. If the only way for me to actually acquire something is platinum and that something has an important effect on gameplay, the game's no longer F2P. Sure, I can technically get it via certain content, but it doesn't matter if I can't reasonably complete that content.

Either enemies with invincibility, or heavy damage reduction. Which one you prefer?

You can avoid them when you see them, but at close range you need some superhuman reaction to avoid one and you can block them with melee (ever tried reading tips on top left corner by the tenno councils when loading missions?)

I didn't say a requirement, it's an alternative way to obtain things. If you can't do that hard content, trade until you have enough platinum and buy from other players

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Enemies adapting to your strategies (intro of nullifiers) is how warfare works - Nullifier fields are at their heart a form of ECM (Electronic Counter Measure) now you need to get busy with the ECCM (Electronic Counter Counter Measure - also mouthful.)  for you though - it's not a widget to wear on your back, the adaptation comes in how you fight them  There are frames that their abilities  work against nullifier bubbles - but the simplest way is just take a good mix of weapons - each weapon has a use scenario - it doesn't have to be a high rate of fire gun either - you can lay waste to nullifiers w/ a fast high range melee weapon - i usually use my Kripath and i can almost always take out the field before it debuffs my squishy frame. Also - Solgate w/ no motes tears though nullifier bubbles (and the crewman generating it)  just as fast as a SOMA or other high rate fire weapon. (I was curious and just tested it in the simulacrum on level 120 enemies)  there is a minimum and a maximum amount of damage a bubble can take per frame - min is 100 max is 400 - if you shoot somethign wimpy that does 2 points of damage - it will get rounded to 100. if it hits for 10,000 it will get rounded down to 400.  

Also keep in mind your a Tenno in a Warframe - not an immobile turret or a tank - your designed to be first and foremost highly mobile.  last i checked nullifiers can't wall latch or double jump or aim glide... 

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3 hours ago, moostar95 said:

And people thought DE listens. Lol

Let's revert them back to their launch state where the bubble is very big that it goes through roof so they can nullify your abilities just by being below you and the bubble is always active regardless of being alerted or not so we can say DE don't listen to us, shall we?

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2 hours ago, EmberStar said:

Perhaps learning to grow up might help you more.  I play exclusively solo, and have since the Founders pack was something you can still buy.  Thanks for the patronizing "advice" though, I know just where to file it.

-*flush!*-

So how they're BS to you when you play exclusively solo? They're readable enough that you can anticipate them already

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3 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Either enemies with invincibility, or heavy damage reduction. Which one you prefer?

You can avoid them when you see them, but at close range you need some superhuman reaction to avoid one and you can block them with melee (ever tried reading tips on top left corner by the tenno councils when loading missions?)

I didn't say a requirement, it's an alternative way to obtain things. If you can't do that hard content, trade until you have enough platinum and buy from other players

Heavy damage reduction by far. Pitiful progress is better than no progress.

If you weren't aware, blocking isn't too much of a thing right now. Besides, that's not the point. The point is that the grapple is not practically avoidable if you happen to be standing next to the ancient when it starts the animation.

That makes it a requirement. If I can't obtain X through Y, even if I technically can, it's not an option and equivalent to there being no option at all. If the difficulty becomes so high that Y isn't feasible, having the option of Y is useless since it cannot be taken. It doesn't help since I can't do it. If this game wants to be F2P it should never require platinum for anything of measurable effect on gameplay. Of course, this is excluding extenuating circumstances such as someone has a medical condition and literally doesn't have the reaction time for something when the majority (or at least a large plurality) of people do. If something important gets put in as a reward (minus cosmetics) for something hard it should also be placed somewhere easier with a lower drop rate so that people who can't or don't enjoy hard content have an opportunity to still get those rewards.

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5 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

Heavy damage reduction by far. Pitiful progress is better than no progress.

If you weren't aware, blocking isn't too much of a thing right now. Besides, that's not the point. The point is that the grapple is not practically avoidable if you happen to be standing next to the ancient when it starts the animation.

That makes it a requirement. If I can't obtain X through Y, even if I technically can, it's not an option and equivalent to there being no option at all. If the difficulty becomes so high that Y isn't feasible, having the option of Y is useless since it cannot be taken. It doesn't help since I can't do it. If this game wants to be F2P it should never require platinum for anything of measurable effect on gameplay. Of course, this is excluding extenuating circumstances such as someone has a medical condition and literally doesn't have the reaction time for something when the majority (or at least a large plurality) of people do. If something important gets put in as a reward (minus cosmetics) for something hard it should also be placed somewhere easier with a lower drop rate so that people who can't or don't enjoy hard content have an opportunity to still get those rewards.

So you prefer heavy damage reduction instead of having a weak enemy with a protective field that you can disable almost immediately by targeting the weak spot? I would like to see how long that will last when they introduce more enemy with massive damage resistance because we already have eidolon for that

It is unavoidable when you happen to be standing next to it, but you can them swinging their arm before the hook. A melee swing isn't that hard to do, is it?

If it's a requirement, there wouldn't be another way. I said this because you can't or don't want to do this hard content to get something. The choice is either getting good to face it, or gather enough platinum to buy it from other players, the choice is on your hand

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Really?  This being brought again after all the nerfs nullies have already gotten?  This topic is just sad.  Very very sad.  

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56 minutes ago, 844448 said:

So you prefer heavy damage reduction instead of having a weak enemy with a protective field that you can disable almost immediately by targeting the weak spot? I would like to see how long that will last when they introduce more enemy with massive damage resistance because we already have eidolon for that

It is unavoidable when you happen to be standing next to it, but you can them swinging their arm before the hook. A melee swing isn't that hard to do, is it?

If it's a requirement, there wouldn't be another way. I said this because you can't or don't want to do this hard content to get something. The choice is either getting good to face it, or gather enough platinum to buy it from other players, the choice is on your hand

The problem with Eidolons is that they have massive damage reduction and do damage that's too high. As I said, give an enemy one main role, whether it be tank, dps, or so on. The problem with your weak spot is that it isn't always accessible without going through the bubble, which defeats the purpose of shooting it from far away so it doesn't disable your abilities.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If a single melee swing could take down an ancient, which it almost certainly can't without rivens at higher levels, that doesn't change my point that you can't interrupt the grapple. You have to never be targeted in the first place or kill the ancient before it can grapple, which is plain stupid. It doesn't help that grapples can go through walls (yeah, I get that grapples are supposed to help with players attempting to cheese by hiding in places, but they could make it so the grapples aren't activated/don't go through walls unless the ancient can't figure out a way to get to the player).

What I'm saying is that your 'other way' is no way at all in the proposed scenario. It exists as nothing more than an illusion, dream, or taunt. We're saying in this theoretical instance that the player lacks the skill, not the gear, to achieve victory, and that the player cannot reach a skill level wherein they could achieve victory. This means the player's only option is platinum. Platinum is a requirement to obtain X in this scenario, since we know the player cannot play through the specific mission to obtain X. It's like those 'F2P' MMOs that place everything good in terms of gear behind months, if not years, of farming (or pay $9.99 and get it now!). Sure, it's technically feasible. But we're talking in terms of practicality, not technicality. Technically, the servers could glitch and give me every single item in the game without DE ever finding out. That's not going to happen with any practical chance, though.

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6 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

The problem with Eidolons is that they have massive damage reduction and do damage that's too high. As I said, give an enemy one main role, whether it be tank, dps, or so on. The problem with your weak spot is that it isn't always accessible without going through the bubble, which defeats the purpose of shooting it from far away so it doesn't disable your abilities.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If a single melee swing could take down an ancient, which it almost certainly can't without rivens at higher levels, that doesn't change my point that you can't interrupt the grapple. You have to never be targeted in the first place or kill the ancient before it can grapple, which is plain stupid. It doesn't help that grapples can go through walls (yeah, I get that grapples are supposed to help with players attempting to cheese by hiding in places, but they could make it so the grapples aren't activated/don't go through walls unless the ancient can't figure out a way to get to the player).

What I'm saying is that your 'other way' is no way at all in the proposed scenario. It exists as nothing more than an illusion, dream, or taunt. We're saying in this theoretical instance that the player lacks the skill, not the gear, to achieve victory, and that the player cannot reach a skill level wherein they could achieve victory. This means the player's only option is platinum. Platinum is a requirement to obtain X in this scenario, since we know the player cannot play through the specific mission to obtain X. It's like those 'F2P' MMOs that place everything good in terms of gear behind months, if not years, of farming (or pay $9.99 and get it now!). Sure, it's technically feasible. But we're talking in terms of practicality, not technicality. Technically, the servers could glitch and give me every single item in the game without DE ever finding out. That's not going to happen with any practical chance, though.

Deal too much damage to who? So far I don't have this problem anymore because I have invested in my warframe and operator so I see this as your unwillingness to invest and work your way through because other games have tank and dps in one unit, not just warframe. Weak spot isn't always accessible without going through the bubble? You have this one big arse drone hovering on the nullifier, you just need to shoot this one and no more nullifier field, permanently. Is this too hard for you to shoot a drone that as big as the crewman bringing it hovering on plain sight?

Grapples can't go through walls and you can simply walk away from the general direction of the aim, I've done this many times so saying you have to never be targeted in the first place is very, very dumb because the grapple itself can be blocked with melee that you have instantly in your hand with melee rework. Still too hard for you? Use this

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqfXW0A3ubCkQ-E9N6XOn

Skill can be honed because honestly, at this point it's just you not willing to hone your skills and want everything available to you without putting some effort for it

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4 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Deal too much damage to who? So far I don't have this problem anymore because I have invested in my warframe and operator so I see this as your unwillingness to invest and work your way through because other games have tank and dps in one unit, not just warframe. Weak spot isn't always accessible without going through the bubble? You have this one big arse drone hovering on the nullifier, you just need to shoot this one and no more nullifier field, permanently. Is this too hard for you to shoot a drone that as big as the crewman bringing it hovering on plain sight?

Grapples can't go through walls and you can simply walk away from the general direction of the aim, I've done this many times so saying you have to never be targeted in the first place is very, very dumb because the grapple itself can be blocked with melee that you have instantly in your hand with melee rework. Still too hard for you? Use this

Skill can be honed because honestly, at this point it's just you not willing to hone your skills and want everything available to you without putting some effort for it

I dare you to attempt to stay outside of your operator's void mode and tell me that. Even if you don't, all it takes is two attacks from an Eidolon to down a warframe more often than not (unless you're running with a healer and/or tank). Additionally, the sheer attack spam is somewhat stupid, among other things. Regardless, this isn't about Eidolons. They're irrelevant.

Oh yeah, you know, the 'big arse drone' that can be on the other side of the bubble in a hallway.

Grapples can 100% go through walls, around corners, and so on. Tell me how you block. I can't. It's automatic now. Which means you can't block. I don't see a button in the config to map to blocking. Granted, I don't know everything, but the game either blocks on its own or doesn't as far as I am aware. Also, that sacrifices a mod slot and doesn't fix the issue because you still get paused, which can be life-threatening at times.

You've ignored the entire point of the previous relevant part I posted. It's a hypothetical scenario in which the game gets harder when the content is already plenty hard for me and I assume others. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying I'm at my limit and no amount of 'honing' or 'training' or 'practicing' is going to fix it. It's like throwing myself at a brick wall. There are limits to reaction times and how much one can split their brain to think of everything and how perfect one can be in button pressing. These limits are quite different for many people. For me, they're being stretched as Warframe is. It's not impossible for me to deal with harder content, but it's getting there. I can't get better, at least not by any amount that would actually be helpful. Otherwise, I would. And, it's not even about me. It doesn't matter who it is. At some point, content becomes too hard for certain people. This will be true of any harder content added to Warframe. You don't need to tell people to 'git gud'. You can compromise, and allow them to get the reward by investing time rather than technique. None of your arguments make any sense against this proposal.

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39 minutes ago, Keylan118 said:

I dare you to attempt to stay outside of your operator's void mode and tell me that. Even if you don't, all it takes is two attacks from an Eidolon to down a warframe more often than not (unless you're running with a healer and/or tank). Additionally, the sheer attack spam is somewhat stupid, among other things. Regardless, this isn't about Eidolons. They're irrelevant.

Oh yeah, you know, the 'big arse drone' that can be on the other side of the bubble in a hallway.

Grapples can 100% go through walls, around corners, and so on. Tell me how you block. I can't. It's automatic now. Which means you can't block. I don't see a button in the config to map to blocking. Granted, I don't know everything, but the game either blocks on its own or doesn't as far as I am aware. Also, that sacrifices a mod slot and doesn't fix the issue because you still get paused, which can be life-threatening at times.

You've ignored the entire point of the previous relevant part I posted. It's a hypothetical scenario in which the game gets harder when the content is already plenty hard for me and I assume others. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying I'm at my limit and no amount of 'honing' or 'training' or 'practicing' is going to fix it. It's like throwing myself at a brick wall. There are limits to reaction times and how much one can split their brain to think of everything and how perfect one can be in button pressing. These limits are quite different for many people. For me, they're being stretched as Warframe is. It's not impossible for me to deal with harder content, but it's getting there. I can't get better, at least not by any amount that would actually be helpful. Otherwise, I would. And, it's not even about me. It doesn't matter who it is. At some point, content becomes too hard for certain people. This will be true of any harder content added to Warframe. You don't need to tell people to 'git gud'. You can compromise, and allow them to get the reward by investing time rather than technique. None of your arguments make any sense against this proposal.

So what is this about if not about eidolons? Having enemies being both tank and dps isn't a bad design and I heard this for the first time from you and sheer attack spam isn't stupid for a game with fast pace like warframe

other side of the bubble? Shoot the bubble if you can't shoot the drone, they're not that durable, or if you don't want to retreat you can melee the bubble by staying at the edge of the bubble. Really, you're making this like a big problem when the solution is quite simple

Blocking is automatic now by looking at the enemy, try it at lower level if you want to test it. I can assure you that their grapples can't go through walls and corners since I've tested it many times, unless your internet being crap and makes it looks like it goes through

Allow them to get the reward by investing time? You spend your time trading for platinum and buy it from players, that's your reward for investing time in trading, do you see what I mean?

 

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1 minute ago, 844448 said:

So what is this about if not about eidolons? Having enemies being both tank and dps isn't a bad design and I heard this for the first time from you and sheer attack spam isn't stupid for a game with fast pace like warframe

other side of the bubble? Shoot the bubble if you can't shoot the drone, they're not that durable, or if you don't want to retreat you can melee the bubble by staying at the edge of the bubble. Really, you're making this like a big problem when the solution is quite simple

Blocking is automatic now by looking at the enemy, try it at lower level if you want to test it. I can assure you that their grapples can't go through walls and corners since I've tested it many times, unless your internet being crap and makes it looks like it goes through

Allow them to get the reward by investing time? You spend your time trading for platinum and buy it from players, that's your reward for investing time in trading, do you see what I mean?

 

Nullifiers. Since the discussion is supposed to be about that, I'm not going to engage on Eidolons.

Yes, it's that simple. Problem is that bubble is running at you. We're back where we started. Too many bubbles at once acting as multiple roles (tanks, buffs, energy drain). Sure, you can shoot one or two down. Four running you at once is going to be a problem, though, and especially so if your movement is limited like in a tight hallway.

Their grapples can go through walls so long as they start the animation before you are behind a wall. My internet is by no means crappy. Blocking is automatic, as I said. Doesn't change the fact that you still get paused which can be deadly, and the fact that ancients can just launch all their grapples in quick succession bringing you down repeatedly without any chance to actually get away. Also, again, this is supposed to be about nullifiers, but I recognize that we've already been talking about this for a bit so I'm fine with continuing this, but I'd prefer to leave it in favor of the purpose of the thread.

Are you just ignoring my entire thing about platinum and how it's not a solution especially for a F2P game? You can trade for it, sure, but that is as unreliable as Baro if not more. Somebody has to buy that platinum in the first place. You have to rely on someone else buying that in the first place and then be willing to trade with you for it for something you have. That's p2w with extra steps. Otherwise, why not just lock every bit of new content behind platinum?

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14 hours ago, Zelmen said:

For a more clean cut one, Mesa's 4th. They are F-ing guns. Let use shoot at the bubble. Just make it not auto aim at the bubble. Makes more sense to loss auto aim then to just say, hey I know your no where near the bubble but you can't shoot period.

Did you specifically doubechecked that they shoot physical projectiles and not energy pellets which would be nullified anyway, even if you forcfully shot them?

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3 minutes ago, WindigoTG said:

Did you specifically doubechecked that they shoot physical projectiles and not energy pellets which would be nullified anyway, even if you forcfully shot them?

I'm pretty sure Peacemaker is hitscan.  There's no moving projectile, just a "can gun hit target?  If YES then Damgage = DO."  The nullifier bubbles are pretty inconsistent about direct warfame damage powers.  Some powers *can* damage the bubble (but not anything inside it.)  Other powers that also do damage are completely blocked.  And it's pretty hard to tell whether that's on purpose, or a glitch.

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3 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

I'm pretty sure Peacemaker is hitscan.  There's no moving projectile, just a "can gun hit target?  If YES then Damgage = DO."  The nullifier bubbles are pretty inconsistent about direct warfame damage powers.  Some powers *can* damage the bubble (but not anything inside it.)  Other powers that also do damage are completely blocked.  And it's pretty hard to tell whether that's on purpose, or a glitch.

If we are going to boil it all down to the game mechanics, then why was the Pissmaker brought up in the first place?

Ability + Nullibubble = Don't work.

Case closed.

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This is where melee tank frames shine (ie. Inaros, Rhino, maybe a little bit of Excalibur)

People in the thread keep recommending shooting the bubble out but usually the easiest way is to run into the bubble and rip the nullifier apart with a good melee.

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16 hours ago, Kylo. said:

 can't just mindlessly play

Are we playing the same game ??? 🤣

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