What's good about Ember's passive.

[Trusnam]

It makes her dynamic, sets her apart from other frames and gives players a sense of achievement. 

This only recently hit me, but it makes a tone of sense, especially with everything I've learned about people.

I've spent a lot of time (most of my life in fact) trying to figure out why people do the things they do, trying to understand the subconscious mind and all that stuff that's too deep for most folk. Recently I found a rather simple answer that blew my mind (been a while). It was obvious. Emotion. 

The majority of people always say that emotion is a powerful thing and well, not many people argue that. From what I can tell emotions are the things that get us to connect with just about anything. But what's that got to do with Ember?

Well...being able to take advantage of Ember's passive is not common and the ways where you can activate it by yourself are at you're own risk. To top that off you take damage from the heat proc with nothing in Ember's base kit to stop you from taking damage or healing you. All that can give you a sense of elation when you get the chance to take advantage of her passive (either by being hit and set on fire, finding a fire patch or something else) but it also builds a sense of fear as you'll be taking a risk for some reward. Any kind of risk, no matter how small, can really get to us on an emotional level, especially if we're actually choosing to take the risk. 

Because of that rarity and the risks (even though they're really not that bad) we can get quite an emotional response. As a matter of fact Ember is the only frame I like to play anymore as she's the only one I feel anything with anymore, beyond frustration...

I recently got the mod "Energy Conversion" and added it to my Ember and it sort of has a small risk, but high reward thing going in it and I've been enjoying playing even more now. I haven't gotten the chance to try it on any other frame, but I'm looking forward to trying it out on my other frames (I'll add a comment after I've done so to confirm or deny my thoughts here).

But yeah risk and reward are great ways to get people emotionally involved (why do you think people like to gamble so much?).

On top of her passive being the way it is, the way it works with WoF adds another bit of that risk vs reward. Since you cant regenerate energy while WoF is active you are left with a choice do you leave/turn it off to generate energy while facing down enemies with it off or do you turn WoF on to take advantage of the extra damage from the passive while risking running out of energy or just getting low on it.

In short.

Ember's passive has that risk vs reward down the way she currently is (might be why there are such dedicated people who main her, just sayin').

I definitely think she needs a rework (along with fire procs needing to be stackable and maybe less CC oriented), but I am actually hoping that the passive remains the same now along with WoF remaining as a maintained ability (despite all my past suggestions for her). 

 

So...good job DE! You made her so addicting that those who have gotten to enjoy her won't shut up about her!

 

Let me know what you think in the comments, Plz!

[Blexander]

Objectively incorrect, but ok, that's just your opinion.

[krc473]

37 minutes ago, Trusnam said:

I recently got the mod "Energy Conversion" and added it to my Ember and it sort of has a small risk, but high reward thing going in it and I've been enjoying playing even more now

Are you sure you mean Energy Conversion? There is absolutely no risk involved anywhere, just reward. I am not sure what mod you do mean, but I figure you must have made a mistake with the mod.

 

I don’t agree with your take on the passive. I don’t think it’s particularly good - admittedly I have not played Ember enough recently to make a proper judgement. So, I won’t argue, just state that I disagree.

Edited June 4, 2019 by krc473

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

It literally requires a frame that’s not good at taking damage to take damage to restore energy. That is objectively bad design.

[Trusnam]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It literally requires a frame that’s not good at taking damage to take damage to restore energy. That is objectively bad design.

Oh totally. 

I wasn't intending to say that it actually is good. I more just wanted to say something good about it.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 minute ago, Trusnam said:

Oh totally. 

I wasn't intending to say that it actually is good. I more just wanted to say something good about it.

It’s a good example of “how not to make a passive”.

[TheGreenFellow]

It fascinates me how people can idolize masochistic tendencies.

Personally not a fan of it. How you claim to find Ember the *least* frustrating Warframe to use in her current state, is beyond me.

[(XBOX)LordSinners]

Actually I think that Ember is dead with the last nerf ... I really don't understand nerfing political ...

[Trusnam]

3 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

It fascinates me how people can idolize masochistic tendencies.

Personally not a fan of it. How you claim to find Ember the *least* frustrating Warframe to use in her current state, is beyond me.

Oh I get frustrated when playing her all right. I just get other kinds of emotions besides just frustration when playing her that I don't get with other frames...

[TheGreenFellow]

26 minutes ago, Trusnam said:

Oh I get frustrated when playing her all right. I just get other kinds of emotions besides just frustration when playing her that I don't get with other frames...

Other kinds of emotions, indeed.

It's okay, I dig curves too.

edit: relevant: https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/91d8u4/clanmatewhy_do_you_play_ember_she_is_S#&$_now_me/

Edited June 4, 2019 by TheGreenFellow

[Atsia]

4 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It literally requires a frame that’s not good at taking damage to take damage to restore energy. That is objectively bad design.

The passive itself isn't bad design, it's the fact that Ember didn't have a way to safely use it is bad design. The passive is great, but when there's no safe or reliable way to activate it, then you run into problems. An easy fix would be allowing Fireball or Fire Blast (or both) to hit her with a heat proc when she uses the ability to activate it.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Atsia

[Doomclaaw]

Her passive would be fine if she had a reliable and less dangerous way of setting herself on fire... just sayin

[Andvarja]

20 hours ago, krc473 said:

20 hours ago, Trusnam said:

 

Are you sure you mean Energy Conversion? There is absolutely no risk involved anywhere, just reward. I am not sure what mod you do mean, but I figure you must have made a mistake with the mod.

It sounds a bit like Rage/Hunter Adrenaline

[Trusnam]

12 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s a good example of “how not to make a passive”.

I wouldn't say that, but it is definitely badly implemented in her kit as she has no way to activate it on her own in any safe way.

[Trusnam]

11 hours ago, TheGreenFellow said:

Other kinds of emotions, indeed.

It's okay, I dig curves too.

edit: relevant: https://old.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/91d8u4/clanmatewhy_do_you_play_ember_she_is_S#&$_now_me/

Indeed a good bonus, yes. 👍

[Trusnam]

4 hours ago, Doomclaaw said:

Her passive would be fine if she had a reliable and less dangerous way of setting herself on fire... just sayin

Or some way to heal/restore shields, but totally agree! 

[Trusnam]

22 hours ago, krc473 said:

Are you sure you mean Energy Conversion? There is absolutely no risk involved anywhere, just reward. I am not sure what mod you do mean, but I figure you must have made a mistake with the mod.

Yeah Energy Conversion, though admittedly the risk is all meta. As instead of getting a constant buff from some other mod you have the tiny risk of not getting anything out of the mod if you can't find an energy orb. Also, as for why I like it, since there is that tiny "risk..." I get a sense of relief/elation every time I pick up an energy orb after casting something. 

There are other mods out there that would provide higher (and possibly more fun) risks easily though, admittedly.

[Teridax68]

My take on this is that, in a world where a frame's base health was considered functional, and where tank frames only had a reasonably smaller multiple of the base health pool, it would be okay for glass cannon frames to be defined by either smaller health pools or a need to damage themselves to unlock their full power. Ember needing to set herself on fire would be acceptable if Ember as a baseline were decently capable of surviving: not by any means the best, but functional at the very least.

The problem right now, unfortunately, is that durability has become practically mandatory in higher levels, where enemy damage is so excessive it can kill frames at base health instantly, sometimes with a single shot. This I suspect is why Wisp, a fragile-looking caster frame, can give herself invulnerability and massive amounts of bonus health and regen, and why Garuda, who is explicitly made to bring herself near death to unlock her full power, is given so many survivability tools as to be one of the most durable, albeit more difficult frames around. Warframe is currently in a bizarre state of balance where even glass cannon frames need some means of increasing their tankiness, and frames that don't have those suffer tremendously in higher-level content, unless of course they're one of those frames capable of killing enemies through walls before the latter can approach them: as a frame with no innate survivability tools, but also extremely poor damage compared to the likes of Equinox and Saryn, Ember is therefore already not in good shape as a glass cannon, and asking her on top of that to hamper what minuscule survivability she has left adds insult to injury.

In an ideal Warframe, I can agree with the OP that a passive like this would be fitting for Ember: I personally would like to see that kind of playstyle encouraged in an environment where the rewards are proportionate to the risk. However, Ember is a frame that currently puts herself at far too much risk, and so for very little reward, as her kit is weak and even her passive doesn't boost her power by that much. Part of this is likely a problem that will only be solved if Warframe returns to a more sane state of balance, and reined in enemy damage and the durability of tanks so that every other frame could stand a chance, but part of it will also likely involve changing Ember so that when she does put herself at risk, she can reap proper rewards.