Trans Pride Flag Palette for Pride?

[Hypernaut1]

22 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

Cause it's making an issue out of a non-issue, from rl to the environment where people just wants to forget all that..... If you can't see that then you're free to make your own narrative of it all really.

 

Most just want to have fun in this game and not bogged down by people flexing their chosen gender when nobody have made it an issue from the start. To include politics of any kind into a means of escapism pretty much either incites further conflict or it being a wasted effort that doesn't go anywhere.

Deluding yourself that this small gesture would make people seem like they accept trans/ LGBT more in itself is, again, a delusion. It adds nothing at best while creating a possible scenario where people who doesn't care of the notion being possibly branded as a hater by a more sensitive "pro lgbt/ trans rights" group to start further politics in said environment ergo why people are so averse from rl politics being added ingame.

The causality and ramifications aren't so far fetched and there's a few interesting reads that can make sense of it all out there.

Lol..."bogged down" by a limited time color palette, or a sigil? Really? 

I'm just going to stop here. I'm chuckling to myself at the thought of people logging in to Warframe and stressing out over an optional color palette, logging back out in disgust. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[zuraith]

26 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

Whether DE does something for CSD/Pride or not is irrelevant.

This is a videogame, and a videogame company. They aren't lawmakers, they aren't a social movement or civil rights platform. Raising flags, showing colors, acting divisive and pointing blame and fingers isn't going to solve this social hot button issue. As long as there's no peaceful coexistence, without screaming and "in your face" on either side, as long as people don't finally and irrevocably understand that everyone should have a right to their own bodies and it's no one's business (in any capacity) to judge that, nor should it have any role whatsoever who puts what where dressing how, we're not gonna get over this.

The corporate greed of trying to curry favour with the masses by appealing to the Zeitgeist does not equate support for anyone but the bottom line. Pepsi doesn't give two hecks about student protests. Coca-Cola doesn't give three hecks about Christmas. They care about money.

Just let each other be.

Just stop making an ass out of yourself for the sake of what happens in the privacy of your homes. 

Just stop applying your norms and beliefs to others. 

People gotta learn to identify the things that matter, such as systemic abuse of workers, increasing distance between management and employees, rising tensions, climate change, the resurgence of fatal child illnesses that had been thought defeated, and a general political fatigue in the civilized world due to a large disconnect of those in power and those voting for them. It really should not matter who someone loves. Where they shop. It's a boring and exhausting topic, because it is so utterly inane, and shouldn't even be a topic at all - it should be common sense that you and I like different things, and as long as my things don't impact yours and vice versa, that's a-okay.

This is a game for adults.

Digital Extremes isn't your surrogate parents, teaching you basic human decency and tolerance. And yeah, that goes either side of the camp.

Just wanted to say I genuinely appreciate this post. Thank you.

[FlusteredFerret]

33 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

I.e. you ran out of arguments from your previous statements... gotcha.

 

1. Fictional politics doesn't entail real life consequence, at best/ worst it's a satire of real life ones which people can shrug off and forget entirely when they finish playing.

2. When has forcing ANY believe on others end up positively? It's not about supporting LGBT rights or not, it's about the indirect causality from it. Many have voiced their indifference of the movement and neutrality is all they ask as to not make any party the "special snowflake".

For you to speak on DE's behalf that this movement is for their betterment when literally there's nothing to be gained or lost is pretty much that, again, a waste at best, while it becomes a negative image that a company would feel the need to be forced to obliging to rl politics at worst. If the latter goes in effect, whose to say "Whales" won't be among them ergo less income for DE? Sure it's theoretical but it sure as hell isn't as far fetched as your notion of a color pallet being this be all end all way for DE to exemplify their support for trans movements instead of the methods I've mentioned like donating to trans rights groups.

The community is already welcoming of LGBT/ trans players as is, there's no need for this extra "sense of acceptance" when the worst extent of it all gets curbed by the EULA/ general rules that asks for civility all the same. 

3. Won't change a thing, DE have done similarly with the month of solidarity with the orange ribbon and not that many sported it all the same. The notion is noble, people get that but even a non-political notion such as simply raising awareness for leukemia people largely show their support in another way and show little interest of it ingame per se.

4. This bears nothing to your argumentative point at all. No I won't stop playing WF and would most likely ignore it, and that's the crux of the problem. It's a wasted effort, that just feels forced by a minority group who doesn't really need the extra sense of acceptance when they already are accepted by the community at large. It's literally an act of creating issue when there's none to begin with.

5. You're talkin in circles there mate. If people's differing opinion than yours and simply asking for a neutral stance from rl political drama all the while having actively shown acceptance of trans/ LGBT group ingame isn't enough to show that people have either taken a neutral or supporting stance to the trans/ LGBT group then what possibly constitutes to the absolute need for an extra support/ movement to begin with. Everyone here is a gamer, doesn't matter their gender, believes, occupation or background. We're here to offing eidolons, stomping murderous space stalkers, etc, not cater to groups that forces us to give a Boolean type of answer as to their political standing.

 

TLDR? people HAVE shown their support/ indifference on the matter ingame at large and the general civility rules for the game already covers everyone; LGBT/ trans inclusive. For you to feel there's still a need to justify this wasted inclusion to the game like it's necessary for the game's longevity adds nothing for trans-rights. I.e. it just comes off as you wanting to exact your agenda than an honest to god believe on the circumstances. Again, no gain and no loss so why bother when the "issue" has always been a non-issue in the WF environment to begin with.

 

Thanks for saving me from writing a lengthy response of my own. 

 

I've never understood why the LGBT community can't just be proud of who they are WITHOUT making such a public song and dance about it and spotlighting their lifestyle choices to the rest of the world.

Especially, as has already been pointed out, most people couldn't care less, as long as they are decent human beings.

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[Veridian]

So in essence, I never cared whether you were a man, woman sheep dog, algae or whatever, but I should know, because you're special and you want me to know it?

27 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

people HAVE shown their support/ indifference on the matter ingame at large and the general civility rules for the game already covers everyone; LGBT/ trans inclusive. For you to feel there's still a need to justify this wasted inclusion to the game like it's necessary for the game's longevity adds nothing for trans-rights. I.e. it just comes off as you wanting to exact your agenda than an honest to god believe on the circumstances. Again, no gain and no loss so why bother when the "issue" has always been a non-issue in the WF environment to begin with.

I have to agree, the issue is not acceptance, that's already present, at this point it feels like praise is requested and that's what's probably annoying people.

Overall the entire topic is a slippery slope.
E.G.: Thus far, apart from voice chat the game has no way of telling what's sitting behind the keyboard, so why should this particular group get extra attention. When does too much inclusivity become privilege? Why did real world issues we don't want to be bothered with get into a form of escapism? Because this would be the definition of "forced down the throat" and it's not even the particular topic, it's being a real world issue in general. Would anybody be any less annoyed if DE start adding content about Trump, or about the comic Ukrainian president, or about the Venezuelan crisis... this can go on forever.

and from that trail of thought you'd have a S#&$ storm, which can't have a clear winner, but it will have a clear loser (the devs) so why not best avoid it in general.

 

[AKTKWNG]

Sorry OP, but considering that we can't even go a day without someone getting chat banned for a Nezha joke, I don't think the playerbase will be able to handle trans issues with any semblance of maturity.

(Easter palette will probably get you most of the way in terms of trans flag colours)

[Mr.SpookSpook]

One of my favorite teachers at uni is trans, he is just a cool and fun queer dude not forcing his identity politics or ideology on anyone, not acting like an attention demanding toxic kid, just being comfortable in his skin and having the time of his life. OP and some others in here, you are achieving the exact opposite effect of what you want. You want support? Be like my teacher.

[YUNoJump]

49 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

I.e. you ran out of arguments from your previous statements... gotcha.

Yeah sure, I ran out of arguments and then put forward 5 of them?

49 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

1. Fictional politics doesn't entail real life consequence, at best/ worst it's a satire of real life ones which people can shrug off and forget entirely when they finish playing.

Satire is when you humorously exaggerate a topic to try and criticise it. CoD MW2's airport scene wasn't humorous, Bioshock's libertarian dystopia wasn't humorous, The Witcher's oppressed and persecuted minorities weren't humorous, the Grineer using biological weaponry on neutral pacifists for the crime of existing isn't really humorous either. These political plot points exist to draw parallels with real life, either to send a message, or to help the reader empathise with certain characters/groups in a story by showing them analogies for real life issues. 

49 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

2. When has forcing ANY believe on others end up positively? It's not about supporting LGBT rights or not, it's about the indirect causality from it. Many have voiced their indifference of the movement and neutrality is all they ask as to not make any party the "special snowflake".

For you to speak on DE's behalf that this movement is for their betterment when literally there's nothing to be gained or lost is pretty much that, again, a waste at best, while it becomes a negative image that a company would feel the need to be forced to obliging to rl politics at worst. If the latter goes in effect, whose to say "Whales" won't be among them ergo less income for DE? Sure it's theoretical but it sure as hell isn't as far fetched as your notion of a color pallet being this be all end all way for DE to exemplify their support for trans movements instead of the methods I've mentioned like donating to trans rights groups.

The community is already welcoming of LGBT/ trans players as is, there's no need for this extra "sense of acceptance" when the worst extent of it all gets curbed by the EULA/ general rules that asks for civility all the same. 

There's a pretty big difference between saying that you support a cause and forcing other people to believe in that cause. I'll try it now: I believe toast tastes better without butter on it. Do you still have the option to disagree with me without me having to retract my statement? If so, then I haven't forced you to do anything. 

With that distinction in mind, I still can't find any evidence of a games company announcing that they support LGBT rights and then facing a significant negative impact. I intently await your findings.

The community is explicitly separate to DE, the community isn't beholden to DE's ideals, and vice versa. DE has the right to support trans/LGBT rights without being held to the notion that the community forced them to do it.

49 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

3. Won't change a thing, DE have done similarly with the month of solidarity with the orange ribbon and not that many sported it all the same. The notion is noble, people get that but even a non-political notion such as simply raising awareness for leukemia people largely show their support in another way and show little interest of it ingame per se.

How many people use it is irrelevant, it's about the fact that DE is willing to recognise it. In fact, I don't think you have a reliable source saying that "not that many people" use it. This is coming back to the giving money vs. acceptance argument; the physical utilisation of the gift isn't the same as just being thankful for acceptance. I'm sure lots of people who have interacted with leukemia issues were grateful for the recognition, even if they didn't wear the ribbon in-game.

49 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

4. This bears nothing to your argumentative point at all. No I won't stop playing WF and would most likely ignore it, and that's the crux of the problem. It's a wasted effort, that just feels forced by a minority group who doesn't really need the extra sense of acceptance when they already are accepted by the community at large. It's literally an act of creating issue when there's none to begin with.

Ah, so you have no problem with it, but if you personally don't care about it then it shouldn't be in the game at all. Other people might want it, but because you don't, it's objectively not worth doing. Not only is it apparently useless, it's apparently useless AND optional, so if it were added to the game it wouldn't even be an "issue" for you, it wouldn't affect you at all other than giving you the knowledge that something in the game isn't for you. You may want to consider the perspective of other people once in a while, it's a healthy habit. Also see above for community vs. DE acceptance.

49 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

5. You're talkin in circles there mate. If people's differing opinion than yours and simply asking for a neutral stance from rl political drama all the while having actively shown acceptance of trans/ LGBT group ingame isn't enough to show that people have either taken a neutral or supporting stance to the trans/ LGBT group then what possibly constitutes to the absolute need for an extra support/ movement to begin with. Everyone here is a gamer, doesn't matter their gender, believes, occupation or background. We're here to offing eidolons, stomping murderous space stalkers, etc, not cater to groups that forces us to give a Boolean type of answer as to their political standing.

I again need to refer to my community vs. DE acceptance point back at the end of point 2. People aren't asking for community acceptance, they're asking for DE's acceptance, to know that the game trans people enjoy isn't being run by people who don't accept their existence. The community is irrelevant here, the community is also far too big and diverse to say that it gives a specific amount of trans acceptance, compared to all the people who would shut down any form of official recognition by DE. The part you haven't bolded again comes back to my first point; the game clearly supports certain political ideals regardless of why you play it, and those politics aren't forced on you, they're just visible, as per point 2. DE supporting trans rights is no different.

19 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

TLDR? people HAVE shown their support/ indifference on the matter ingame at large and the general civility rules for the game already covers everyone; LGBT/ trans inclusive. For you to feel there's still a need to justify this wasted inclusion to the game like it's necessary for the game's longevity adds nothing for trans-rights. I.e. it just comes off as you wanting to exact your agenda than an honest to god believe on the circumstances. Again, no gain and no loss so why bother when the "issue" has always been a non-issue in the WF environment to begin with.

My TL:DR is that the general community's existence isn't the same as DE's acceptance, and DE believing in certain ideals doesn't require you to also believe in them. Just because they don't need to in order to keep the game running, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be nice if they did it, and it doesn't mean that doing so would necessarily cause any problems in the game at all outside of people seeing things that they don't care about. This is an old point, but it still stands: If you don't care about something existing, then that means you don't have a reason to stop it from existing, especially in the event that other people do want it to exist.

[Ryusuta]

I'm trans, and honestly, I'd prefer to not open this can of worms. The issue is already subject for a TON of hostility on both sides of the fence, and I think it would invite more ill feelings than is needed. It would honestly just serve to further entrench people on both sides of the issue. My personal feeling is that it's best to simply be a good example rather than beat people over the head with what I am.

Besides, you could always just use things like the Easter/4th of July palettes to come up with a close approximation of the flag's colors anyway. (Personally I prefer deep, saturated blue and gold or red and black color schemes.

[Chibiscus]

7 hours ago, MagPrime said:

As much as I would love this, I don't think DE should be getting involved in the X months, it draws them into too much.

I also think DE should stay out of political, sexual and racial stuff tbh. It always at some point throw some kind of shade onto it.

I mean you can make your fave palette yourself by adding the colours you want to your favourites.

[Numerikuu]

7 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Plenty of game developers and publishers have stood up in support of trans rights, I don't see why it'd be unusual for DE to do it. There are plenty of color palettes that directly reference other real-life things as well, a Trans Pride palette wouldn't be unusual.

Most big developers and publishers don't do it for the actual support though. In reality they give zero #*!%s for the movement, same for any movement. They do it because it's profitable. Once it's no longer profitable, they move on to the next thing.

7 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

What about no. Game developers should remain apolitical and never take a stance in anything which is controversial/always act neutrally. In the same vein, colour palettes should be what they are - colour palettes. They should never be attached to any minority/political group/organisation.

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Numerikuu

[Numerikuu]

1 hour ago, Tsardova said:

I.e. you ran out of arguments from your previous statements... gotcha.

 

1. Fictional politics doesn't entail real life consequence, at best/ worst it's a satire of real life ones which people can shrug off and forget entirely when they finish playing.

2. When has forcing ANY believe on others end up positively? It's not about supporting LGBT rights or not, it's about the indirect causality from it. Many have voiced their indifference of the movement and neutrality is all they ask as to not make any party the "special snowflake".

For you to speak on DE's behalf that this movement is for their betterment when literally there's nothing to be gained or lost is pretty much that, again, a waste at best, while it becomes a negative image that a company would feel the need to be forced to obliging to rl politics at worst. If the latter goes in effect, whose to say "Whales" won't be among them ergo less income for DE? Sure it's theoretical but it sure as hell isn't as far fetched as your notion of a color pallet being this be all end all way for DE to exemplify their support for trans movements instead of the methods I've mentioned like donating to trans rights groups.

The community is already welcoming of LGBT/ trans players as is, there's no need for this extra "sense of acceptance" when the worst extent of it all gets curbed by the EULA/ general rules that asks for civility all the same. 

3. Won't change a thing, DE have done similarly with the month of solidarity with the orange ribbon and not that many sported it all the same. The notion is noble, people get that but even a non-political notion such as simply raising awareness for leukemia people largely show their support in another way and show little interest of it ingame per se.

4. This bears nothing to your argumentative point at all. No I won't stop playing WF and would most likely ignore it, and that's the crux of the problem. It's a wasted effort, that just feels forced by a minority group who doesn't really need the extra sense of acceptance when they already are accepted by the community at large. It's literally an act of creating issue when there's none to begin with.

5. You're talkin in circles there mate. If people's differing opinion than yours and simply asking for a neutral stance from rl political drama all the while having actively shown acceptance of trans/ LGBT group ingame isn't enough to show that people have either taken a neutral or supporting stance to the trans/ LGBT group then what possibly constitutes to the absolute need for an extra support/ movement to begin with. Everyone here is a gamer, doesn't matter their gender, believes, occupation or background. We're here to offing eidolons, stomping murderous space stalkers, etc, not cater to groups that forces us to give a Boolean type of answer as to their political standing.

 

TLDR? people HAVE shown their support/ indifference on the matter ingame at large and the general civility rules for the game already covers everyone; LGBT/ trans inclusive. For you to feel there's still a need to justify this wasted inclusion to the game like it's necessary for the game's longevity adds nothing for trans-rights. I.e. it just comes off as you wanting to exact your agenda than an honest to god believe on the circumstances. Again, no gain and no loss so why bother when the "issue" has always been a non-issue in the WF environment to begin with.

 

1 hour ago, FlusteredFerret said:

I've never understood why the LGBT community can't just be proud of who they are WITHOUT making such a public song and dance about it and spotlighting their lifestyle choices to the rest of the world.

Especially, as has already been pointed out, most people couldn't care less, as long as they are decent human beings.

 

Exactly.

[svegurok]

Why don't we get a color palette for heterosexual people? Same question as yours OP.

I have nothing against LGBTQ but the way that they protrude themselves in public is not correct. Imagine if straight people would do the same.

Edited June 5, 2019 by svegurok

[zuraith]

1 minute ago, svegurok said:

Why don't we get a color palette for straight people? Same question as yours OP.

Did you mean cis?

Not sure how "straight" compares to "trans"...

[Numerikuu]

2 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Well your argument is several hundred words long and you've started using anime girl reaction faces, so I'm gonna reboot this argument a bit and ask you a few questions:

1. Why must developers remain entirely apolitical even when their games, and fellow companies, don't remain so?

I answer this question with one of my own.

Why can't they? What's wrong with being apolitical? What is wrong with remaining neutral?

[Tr1balR]

[Before you read this post, please note that I am trying to be as apolitical and unbiased as possible, and am not trying to cause offence or a flame war.]

 

I don't like politics in my video games. No matter what it may be, it should not have a place in the entertainment medium, unless, the video game is made for the purpose of politics, which Warframe is obviously not. Even if there are horrible things happening to minorities, it shouldn't be the responsibility of the video game industry to raise these issues, it is the responsibility of the people who are responsible for how we as a society treat these individuals, aka the Government and local representatives, and not the gaming industry, games such as Warframe are designed as a sort of escapism from the world around us, and for good reason, there is a lot of bad stuff in our world, why bring the negative connotations into our form of escapism?

We've seen many a game being held down by the video game community for including what is essentially political propaganda into their video games, and all it has done is achieve boycotts and low sales numbers, whether it offends people on the left or the right. Even if we, as people, recognize some issues as important and because we believe a certain world view, does not, by any means make everyone else automatically think the same. Different people think different things, and they both think they are right. People can be turned of sales because of a certain message spread by a game, even more so if it is political, and doubly that if it is highly controversial, like the LGBT+ movement. 

Also, we must also remember why we are doing this. What can Warframe possibly gain from adding a color palette that is representative of a political view? Sure, it may garner respect from some audiences, but others will be turned away, and how long will this respect last? People won't buy any more than they usually would, I certainly wouldn't if it pandered to my political views, all the while turning others away that would otherwise invest in the game financially, losing developers financial streams that they otherwise could need. Although I suppose some will argue that the money from certain individuals are not worth taking because of their views, which sounds like a completely irrational argument, but still, this decision is up to developers, and they should not be pushed in any direction to pander to any political viewpoint, for fake praise which does not amount to anything in the long run.

[Uber.Munchkin]

Ok so I was going to ignore this thread but after all the 'Games can't be political' posts I just can't.  

Video Games are ART.  All Art is Political.  

The Corpus could be seen as strongly critical of capitalism for example.

Making a statement in your game that you support equality for all people should not something that requires 5 pages of argument.  It's simple.  Do you support LGBTQ+ people or not?  If you do, great you can use these tools to do so, if you don't well you don't have to be involved.  It costs nothing to you personally to have something like this in the game and if you don't like it then cool, don't take part.  

If your objection is that you actively seek to reduce or remove rights from LGBTQ+ people then please keep it to yourself and kindly go somewhere where that kind of a reaction is appreciated because in a game this big with this many players I think you'll find that most of us (straight or not) are going to support the LGBTQ+ community and Pride itself.

[Tr1balR]

8 minutes ago, Uber.Munchkin said:

Ok so I was going to ignore this thread but after all the 'Games can't be political' posts I just can't.  

Video Games are ART.  All Art is Political.  

The Corpus could be seen as strongly critical of capitalism for example.

Making a statement in your game that you support equality for all people should not something that requires 5 pages of argument.  It's simple.  Do you support LGBTQ+ people or not?  If you do, great you can use these tools to do so, if you don't well you don't have to be involved.  It costs nothing to you personally to have something like this in the game and if you don't like it then cool, don't take part.  

If your objection is that you actively seek to reduce or remove rights from LGBTQ+ people then please keep it to yourself and kindly go somewhere where that kind of a reaction is appreciated because in a game this big with this many players I think you'll find that most of us (straight or not) are going to support the LGBTQ+ community and Pride itself.

As another post said, games usually take an extreme and comical take on politics, and this is referenced as the corpus, if you will, although it is a clear exaggeration from what life is arguably like in (most western) capitalist countries. This is in contrast to adding a political palette that is supportive of a real life movement that exists and is controversial, that while it may not be of any personal attack to anyone, will turn away people because they do not wish to support games that take political stances that they either like or don't like, it's a simple fact. 

You also seem to take the stance of shunning players for their beliefs, which is not very accepting, but nevertheless this is what happens when you add these political trinkets into games, they turn into politics 101, with everyone at each others throats over small things that, while may be acceptable to some, will be unacceptable to other's standards, which is true with politics in any medium, they just turn into name calling and denunciations. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Tr1balR

[Rakawan]

5 hours ago, zuraith said:

Yeah and also let's add political party sigils, I gotta let my fellow Tenno know I'm a Libertarian.

For real though, let's just stick to well-known holidays.

Libertarian? 

What Syndicate is that again? 😉

 

[Uber.Munchkin]

5 minutes ago, Tr1balR said:

You also seem to take the stance of shunning players for their beliefs, which is not very accepting, but nevertheless this is what happens when you add these political trinkets into games, they turn into politics 101, with everyone at each others throats over small things that, while may be acceptable to some, will be unacceptable to other's standards, which is true with politics in any medium, they just turn into name calling and denunciations. 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing.  If your personal belief is that any LGBTQ+ Person is to be treated as less than any other person then absolutely I will shun you, I would not want to associate with a person like that in RL and I see no reason to do so in a video game.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Uber.Munchkin

[Tr1balR]

1 minute ago, Uber.Munchkin said:

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing.  If your personal belief is that any LGBTQ+ Person is to be treated as less than any other person then absolutely I will shun you, I would not want to associate with a person like that in RL and I see no reason to do so in a video game.

So you're shunning people who shun people.

[Helch0rn]

9 hours ago, DoctorRegulus said:

Or any other pride flag, but the trans pride flag would be nice. Getting support from my favorite game during pride would just be cool.

sure why not. but then I want my Straight Pride flag too

[Numerikuu]

Can we get a lock?

[Tsardova]

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

Yeah sure, I ran out of arguments and then put forward 5 of them?

Satire is when you humorously exaggerate a topic to try and criticise it. CoD MW2's airport scene wasn't humorous, Bioshock's libertarian dystopia wasn't humorous, The Witcher's oppressed and persecuted minorities weren't humorous, the Grineer using biological weaponry on neutral pacifists for the crime of existing isn't really humorous either. These political plot points exist to draw parallels with real life, either to send a message, or to help the reader empathise with certain characters/groups in a story by showing them analogies for real life issues. 

There's a pretty big difference between saying that you support a cause and forcing other people to believe in that cause. I'll try it now: I believe toast tastes better without butter on it. Do you still have the option to disagree with me without me having to retract my statement? If so, then I haven't forced you to do anything. 

With that distinction in mind, I still can't find any evidence of a games company announcing that they support LGBT rights and then facing a significant negative impact. I intently await your findings.

The community is explicitly separate to DE, the community isn't beholden to DE's ideals, and vice versa. DE has the right to support trans/LGBT rights without being held to the notion that the community forced them to do it.

How many people use it is irrelevant, it's about the fact that DE is willing to recognise it. In fact, I don't think you have a reliable source saying that "not that many people" use it. This is coming back to the giving money vs. acceptance argument; the physical utilisation of the gift isn't the same as just being thankful for acceptance. I'm sure lots of people who have interacted with leukemia issues were grateful for the recognition, even if they didn't wear the ribbon in-game.

Ah, so you have no problem with it, but if you personally don't care about it then it shouldn't be in the game at all. Other people might want it, but because you don't, it's objectively not worth doing. Not only is it apparently useless, it's apparently useless AND optional, so if it were added to the game it wouldn't even be an "issue" for you, it wouldn't affect you at all other than giving you the knowledge that something in the game isn't for you. You may want to consider the perspective of other people once in a while, it's a healthy habit. Also see above for community vs. DE acceptance.

I again need to refer to my community vs. DE acceptance point back at the end of point 2. People aren't asking for community acceptance, they're asking for DE's acceptance, to know that the game trans people enjoy isn't being run by people who don't accept their existence. The community is irrelevant here, the community is also far too big and diverse to say that it gives a specific amount of trans acceptance, compared to all the people who would shut down any form of official recognition by DE. The part you haven't bolded again comes back to my first point; the game clearly supports certain political ideals regardless of why you play it, and those politics aren't forced on you, they're just visible, as per point 2. DE supporting trans rights is no different.

My TL:DR is that the general community's existence isn't the same as DE's acceptance, and DE believing in certain ideals doesn't require you to also believe in them. Just because they don't need to in order to keep the game running, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be nice if they did it, and it doesn't mean that doing so would necessarily cause any problems in the game at all outside of people seeing things that they don't care about. This is an old point, but it still stands: If you don't care about something existing, then that means you don't have a reason to stop it from existing, especially in the event that other people do want it to exist.

 

Well yeah, you offered no substantive retort to the points I made prior only to make "new" arguments that are pretty much a re-track of some of what you said earlier.

And? You literally took the examples from other games, which has nothing to do with this game environment. Ergo taking issue from another environment simply because this one doesn't have any that entails your own perceived one. The points you made in regards to the topic of cloning in grineer, and neutral pacifism are just leitmotivs and satire to the whole concept of morality, etc. You're asking DE to draw parallel to reality when there's no need for it as the game never touched on the subject matter to begin with.

Sure, there's a difference between supporting a cause and forcing others to believe in that cause, but your arguments have been hinging on the idea that the inclusion of this politically driven movement would only bring good for the minority group without considering the probable causality/ repercussions that may arise from it. I.e. We'll eventually be forced to face the probable outcome of your benign believes without a choice even though you had the choice to just take this as what it is, a non-issue to begin with.

The community may be explicitly separate from DE but they ARE DE's lifeline. Without consumers, the suppliers' longevity is at risk, and when there's a split community DE will have to pitch in all the same ergo a headache on their end. It doesn't matter what your gender choice/ standing is, we're all the same to their eyes.

...... So.... all this kerfufle is simply so that you feel like you've been recognized by the devs even though they and the community at large already have accepted the LGBT/ trans group all the same and common civility rule tied to the game have got you covered all these years anyways.

 

And if some people want it what is the objective point of it all aside from you gaining this perceived recognition from DE? What's the real goal here when, again, past example have shown this kinda of movement doesn't really have any long term effect all the same and would just be a waste of time and resource on DE's part? It's optional sure, and as some who are indifferent have agreed, it'll just be more customization option and nothing more, but again that is the crux of your argument. You seemingly want this to happen on the sole basis of being recognized by DE instead of an honest to God believe that this will do the LGBT/ trans community good, and to that again I have to ask what's the point? What's your real goal here?

DE HAVE accepted LGBT/ Trans group, there's already a few LGBT/ trans partners/ WF content creator out there and they have DE's full support all the same like any other content creator. That on top of how the game environment is made accepting of any and all gamers already speaks of their acceptance, isn't that enough?

You're literally creating a paranoid scenario where you "want to know that the game trans people enjoy isn't being run by people who don't accept their existence" when they've already done so for half a decade now.... The community is irrelevant? So other players' acceptance of the LGBT/ Trans group mean nothing and only the dev's matter?  And you want to act like you're on the moral high ground?

 

 

C'mon mate.... least come up with a straight narrative with clear cut logical causality here. You're literally painting yourself as an entitled person instead of one who is thankful of what they have been blessed with. It's not about what you can have, it's about how thankful you are/ should be with what you already have even if it's not explicit.

[Uber.Munchkin]

10 minutes ago, Tr1balR said:

So you're shunning people who shun people.

No.  If you don't want to associate with a person for any reason then that is your right, it is your choice and I will support 100% your right to do that.

It is my right to look at a person's actions and statements and decide if I want to associate with them or not.  I believe incredibly strongly in equality, discrimination, be it racial, orientation or gender based has no place in this world.  If a person supports beliefs, statements, policies etc that seek to remove equalities, repress minorities or discriminate against another person purely based on who that person is at a fundamental level then I judge them to be not worth my time and I won't spend any of it with them.  

If your politics encapsulate a belief that others who are of a different sexuality, race or gender are somehow less than you then I will judge you on that, but at the same time I respect your right to hold that belief, I just think it makes you a regressive and awful person who I don't want to talk to.

It's complicated, but it is possible to respect someone's right to a differing opinion while still finding that opinion and everything about it utterly abhorrent. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Uber.Munchkin

[Tsardova]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Lol..."bogged down" by a limited time color palette, or a sigil? Really? 

I'm just going to stop here. I'm chuckling to myself at the thought of people logging in to Warframe and stressing out over an optional color palette, logging back out in disgust. 

Guess you just don't wanna read the real argument I made earlier on the possible repercussion and instead just use the most brain dead answer to feel in the right huh.

 

Ah well, made my point and as I said you're free to make your own narrative at this point.

Mod(s), please lock the thread.