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KnightCole

Warframe could benefit from The Division "World Tiers"

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Why?  Well, it stems from how 99% of the Star Chart is completely useless.  Once you've ground it out, you can basically forget it exists.  Also, when you do play the game, there are tons of pure trash mobs that offer no challenge at all. You go into a survival, you have to wait 30-40 minutes until they get tough and the game starts to become fun.  A good portion of why I thoroughly enjoyed Warframe when I first started was because the combat was very unique and new, plus the combat was fun and semi challenging.  Enemies were kinda tough, and it was a fun time.  Now, with how power crept we are, now that our mods are maxed, a huge amount of the game is simply trivial.  There is no reason to visit 99% of the star chart or planets.  Even in random events and stuff, enemies are pretty weak overall.  We either get 1 shot, or 1 shot everything.  The game has lost it's challenge and enjoyment that it had when I first began.

A potential solution?  The Division-esque World Tiers.

This would allow us to put ourselves into a World Tier where enemies are jacked up to a given difficulty associated with the tier.  So, just as an example. Lets say World Tier 1 is 0-30, good for noobs and lesser geared up players. All events and everything would be scaled to this level, including rewards and stuff. Then as you as a player improve and get better gear, you move up the tiers.  Then you move up to WT2, which lets just say, begins at 31-70.  So any time you join a mission, enemies start off at lvl 31 and end at 70.  And so on and so forth, with the next tiers being 71-100, 101-130, 131-200......in this way, players can choose the challenge they want and play in it without having to wait for the trivial enemies to lvl up.  WHen I play survivals, by the time enemies are high enough to pose a threat, im bored to tears and half asleep at the keyboard....

I know they added that one game mode from Simaris which basically did this, but I propose they add a similar thing all throughout the entire game, as well as massively overhauling reward drops so that we can farm and just enjoy playing with the entire Star Chart, not just PoE or Vallis or w/e place happens to be the 'meta'.  

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increasing the Level of Enemies on the Solar Map for later progressed Players isn't going to make the Solar Map more useful for Players. they still have no reason to play 9/10 of the Missions there.
whether the Enemies are Lv1, 10, 30, 50, 100, or 200 - they still have expired the reason they had to play said specific Mission and so the Mission is not useful to them.

but since the game almost entirely revolves around collecting 24589258645 types of Credits via waiting, that isn't likely to change.

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, taiiat said:

increasing the Level of Enemies on the Solar Map for later progressed Players isn't going to make the Solar Map more useful for Players. they still have no reason to play 9/10 of the Missions there.
whether the Enemies are Lv1, 10, 30, 50, 100, or 200 - they still have expired the reason they had to play said specific Mission and so the Mission is not useful to them.

but since the game almost entirely revolves around collecting 24589258645 types of Credits via waiting, that isn't likely to change.

Well, kinda why they should overhaul rewards, so that we can farm for the important stuff everywhere, as well as making the enemies tougher so we can at least get enjoyment out of fighting the enemies that are at or around our difficulty lvl.  Though, I guess this game is played more like a cookie clicker anyway....must be why im not enjoying it much anymore.  Its novelty has completely worn off and its farmville/cookie clicker type nature has shown through entirely to much. 

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1 minute ago, KnightCole said:

Well, kinda why they should overhaul rewards, so that we can farm for the important stuff everywhere, as well as making the enemies tougher so we can at least get enjoyment out of fighting the enemies that are at or around our difficulty lvl.

i wouldn't mind being able to play on most any Tileset i feel like to reach whatever my goals are.
however, that won't give Players a reason to play those 9/10 Missions they aren't now. people would still just play the same Mission that they are already.

Division does a nice job with this goal, but Warframe doesn't have any of the groundwork for it.

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The Division World Tiers don't exist to create "challenge," though. They exist to lengthen the rat race. You go to a new World Tier where enemies have more health and damage, so that you can collect more powerful gear and give yourself more health and damage. Wash, rinse, repeat four more times. That's not to say it's BAD, mind you, but that you're omitting the other half of that system's design goal. Rivens aside, Warframe doesn't have randomly-generated loot or an explicit item level, thus it has little capacity to offer this kind of stepped progression. What you'd end up with is a bunch of difficulty levels with no real reason to play them outside of self-imposed challenges. Not to mention the levels that you're citing are absurd. The level jump is far too significant, and your last World Tier ending in level 200 is just overboard. I'm not even convinced enemies of that level even exist in Warframe.

There's benefit to allowing us to customise our difficulty, but World Tiers aren't it. I'd argue that players need more precise control over the enemy levels they face.

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11 hours ago, KnightCole said:

Why?  Well, it stems from how 99% of the Star Chart is completely useless.  Once you've ground it out, you can basically forget it exists.  Also, when you do play the game, there are tons of pure trash mobs that offer no challenge at all. You go into a survival, you have to wait 30-40 minutes until they get tough and the game starts to become fun.  A good portion of why I thoroughly enjoyed Warframe when I first started was because the combat was very unique and new, plus the combat was fun and semi challenging.  Enemies were kinda tough, and it was a fun time.  Now, with how power crept we are, now that our mods are maxed, a huge amount of the game is simply trivial.  There is no reason to visit 99% of the star chart or planets.  Even in random events and stuff, enemies are pretty weak overall.  We either get 1 shot, or 1 shot everything.  The game has lost it's challenge and enjoyment that it had when I first began.

A potential solution?  The Division-esque World Tiers.

This would allow us to put ourselves into a World Tier where enemies are jacked up to a given difficulty associated with the tier.  So, just as an example. Lets say World Tier 1 is 0-30, good for noobs and lesser geared up players. All events and everything would be scaled to this level, including rewards and stuff. Then as you as a player improve and get better gear, you move up the tiers.  Then you move up to WT2, which lets just say, begins at 31-70.  So any time you join a mission, enemies start off at lvl 31 and end at 70.  And so on and so forth, with the next tiers being 71-100, 101-130, 131-200......in this way, players can choose the challenge they want and play in it without having to wait for the trivial enemies to lvl up.  WHen I play survivals, by the time enemies are high enough to pose a threat, im bored to tears and half asleep at the keyboard....

I know they added that one game mode from Simaris which basically did this, but I propose they add a similar thing all throughout the entire game, as well as massively overhauling reward drops so that we can farm and just enjoy playing with the entire Star Chart, not just PoE or Vallis or w/e place happens to be the 'meta'.  

This has been brought up before , it was a dumb idea then and it's still a dumb idea now .

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Agreed, it was last week when I fell asleep for a few moments in a solo Survival while leveling up Wisp and farming hexenon in Jupiter, I just woke up with half health missing and 30%life support from 50% (mind you I wasn't tired, my brain just had no stimuli and thought I'm trying to get a nap or something). 

We need a way to amp up the starchart for veterans but that can't come with only harder enemies and the same garbage rewards, we need rewards to be scaled up as well and not only affinity gain.

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3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

The Division World Tiers don't exist to create "challenge," though. They exist to lengthen the rat race. You go to a new World Tier where enemies have more health and damage, so that you can collect more powerful gear and give yourself more health and damage. Wash, rinse, repeat four more times. That's not to say it's BAD, mind you, but that you're omitting the other half of that system's design goal. Rivens aside, Warframe doesn't have randomly-generated loot or an explicit item level, thus it has little capacity to offer this kind of stepped progression. What you'd end up with is a bunch of difficulty levels with no real reason to play them outside of self-imposed challenges. Not to mention the levels that you're citing are absurd. The level jump is far too significant, and your last World Tier ending in level 200 is just overboard. I'm not even convinced enemies of that level even exist in Warframe.

There's benefit to allowing us to customise our difficulty, but World Tiers aren't it. I'd argue that players need more precise control over the enemy levels they face.

Well, yes, the tiers do extend the rat race, but can you imagine how pointless and how quick Division would be dead if it ended at WT0 and lvl 30, with no way to increase enemy power beyond that?  We go to GS 293, but enemies just stay lvl 30, WT0.  Thats basically Warframe.  We have RIvens and Prime mods, max mods, we get better and better, but enemies really dont.  Warframe is in that same boat, of enemies kinda plateau in power, but we keep going.  Plus, this idea is more simply for the ability to make enemies start off at worthwhile levels, instead of 99.9% of the enemies being completely and utterly trivial, as they start off in the teens, then we gotta play defense and survivals for 30-40 minutes before the enemies are anything remotely considered a challenge.  This game I find is incredibly boring now because of this. The enemies are just push overs for the most part.

This game, back before I was pwoerful enough, my dad, bro and I would play defense missions and we had the intensity of enemies becoming to powerful for us, it was vicious, and I looked forward to coming back and taking them on at a later date.  This idea would be to bring back that feeling of enemies who actually pose a threat.   

Well, the lvls were just an example, and I know there are players are who like to challenge themselves ;pushing that high.  Me personally, I think 150 is plenty high enough.

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1 hour ago, KnightCole said:

This idea is more simply for the ability to make enemies start off at worthwhile levels, instead of 99.9% of the enemies being completely and utterly trivial, as they start off in the teens, then we gotta play defense and survivals for 30-40 minutes before the enemies are anything remotely considered a challenge.  This game I find is incredibly boring now because of this. The enemies are just push overs for the most part.

Right, but like I said - World Tiers are the wrong way to go about it. I feel a more granular difficulty slider would do a better job. The reason I criticise your choice of levels is because that's just as bad, in my opinion. I like fighting level 30 enemies, especially when levelling up new gear. If I had the choice to do so, I would. If I ran the risk of randomly fighting level 70 enemies while using throwaway MR gear, however, that would be far more problematic. It's why Wolf was such a huge pain in the ass. Sure, he's not that hard if you prepare for him, but he almost never showed up when I did. Allowing players to pick the exact level of their mission, or at the very least pick in increments of 10 (mission level 10, 20, 30, 40, etc.) would resolve that issues all but entirely. If you enjoy fighting level 150 enemies, you can set your mission to level 150 and do that without having to sit around Survival for two hours while I could set my level at, say, 40 and not have to worry about it spiking too high. If we're talking endless missions, then simply let the player pick their starting level and escalate from there using existing systems.

Another reason I dislike World Tiers is that they essentially pressure you into playing the hardest content you can reasonably handle, rather than the content you might be comfortable in. I ran a friend of mine through The Division, and he never really wanted to fight anything above World Tier 3, despite being reasonably enough geared. And while he COULD do that, he could also make no progress nor really play with the rest of us comfortably because we DID want to make progress and so kept dragging him into WT5. The cool thing with a difficulty slider like what I'm proposing is it only alters the level of enemies, but doesn't alter their rewards or drop rates. I suppose they may drop more Affinity and Credits, but they don't drop more resources and their chance of generating blueprints or whatever you might be after remains unaltered. Essentially, the higher difficulty settings are there for when you explicitly want a challenge, but do nothing to actually push you into it.

I've said this before, but: I'm of the opinion that median performance should be over-rewarded while extreme performance (be it extremely bad or extremely good performance) under-rewarded. You want to nudge people out of their starter gear, but you also want to make sure that the people taking on the game's highest, most unreasonable challenges are doing so because they want the challenge, not because they feel they HAVE to attempt it for the sake of efficiency.

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5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Right, but like I said - World Tiers are the wrong way to go about it. I feel a more granular difficulty slider would do a better job. The reason I criticise your choice of levels is because that's just as bad, in my opinion. I like fighting level 30 enemies, especially when levelling up new gear. If I had the choice to do so, I would. If I ran the risk of randomly fighting level 70 enemies while using throwaway MR gear, however, that would be far more problematic. It's why Wolf was such a huge pain in the ass. Sure, he's not that hard if you prepare for him, but he almost never showed up when I did. Allowing players to pick the exact level of their mission, or at the very least pick in increments of 10 (mission level 10, 20, 30, 40, etc.) would resolve that issues all but entirely. If you enjoy fighting level 150 enemies, you can set your mission to level 150 and do that without having to sit around Survival for two hours while I could set my level at, say, 40 and not have to worry about it spiking too high. If we're talking endless missions, then simply let the player pick their starting level and escalate from there using existing systems.

Another reason I dislike World Tiers is that they essentially pressure you into playing the hardest content you can reasonably handle, rather than the content you might be comfortable in. I ran a friend of mine through The Division, and he never really wanted to fight anything above World Tier 3, despite being reasonably enough geared. And while he COULD do that, he could also make no progress nor really play with the rest of us comfortably because we DID want to make progress and so kept dragging him into WT5. The cool thing with a difficulty slider like what I'm proposing is it only alters the level of enemies, but doesn't alter their rewards or drop rates. I suppose they may drop more Affinity and Credits, but they don't drop more resources and their chance of generating blueprints or whatever you might be after remains unaltered. Essentially, the higher difficulty settings are there for when you explicitly want a challenge, but do nothing to actually push you into it.

I've said this before, but: I'm of the opinion that median performance should be over-rewarded while extreme performance (be it extremely bad or extremely good performance) under-rewarded. You want to nudge people out of their starter gear, but you also want to make sure that the people taking on the game's highest, most unreasonable challenges are doing so because they want the challenge, not because they feel they HAVE to attempt it for the sake of efficiency.

Well, im not proposing to lock progress behind a WT like Division does.  Honestly, that was one thing I hated about Div 1, and hate doubly so about Div 2(honestly I hate Div 2 almost entirely, but espeically their progression and upgrade system). 

The only reason I think WT works better than a slider is because it would play hell on the MM when making random squads.  WT would also match similarly minded players, looking for a similar lvl challenge, so the issue of one guy wanting lvl 150 while another wanting 40, wouldnt happen, if either have a brain in their heads and picked the tier they actually wanted.  You then have all the players with tons of different settings, ranging everywhere from 10 to 150, where with WT, you simply match tiers.  Also, you looked to much into my lvls, as I said in my OP, that was simply an example, not at all a set in stone gospel.  The numbers could be changed, and tiers added and lvls compacted or expanded as needed, not unlike Diablo 3 with, now, 16 friggin Torment levels. You pick a Torment lvl you feel comfortable in and fight in it. 

If, like in your example, you were lvling unranked gear, you would obviously lower your WT, or if you were feeling spunky, could go into a higher WT, with all the risks associated with it.  Id honestly make changing WT no harder than changing between Public, Invite or Private matches now in game.

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12 hours ago, KnightCole said:

The only reason I think WT works better than a slider is because it would play hell on the MM when making random squads.

Well, that depends entirely on the game's matchmaking system. Right now, it doesn't really have much of one because DE stoutly refuse to make the server/client infrastructure apparent. I'd say let players choose to host a game they like, and alternately let people queue to join a game hosted by someone else. That way, "join" matchmaking could offer a list of available games and a set of filters to pair those down.

Payday 2's Crime.net was a perfect example of this, in my opinion. You had a "map" which would show I think 20 lobbies hosted by other players, with one of them being replaced with a new one ever 5-ish seconds so the display cycles through the list if multiple of those exist. You could then limit the display in a bunch of ways, such as difficulty, mission type, host settings, etc., and then you'd just sit on the list until a mission you liked popped up and join that. Alternately, the Quick Play option would just use your Crime.net settings and just join you into a random game immediately.

The same can work for Warframe. Let players view a list of games "in progress," meaning ones which can be joined. Let players further limit the missions displayed in the list by level, by faction, by mission type, by planet, by ping, by player count and maybe a few others I can't think of. In fact, make that another icon on Navigation similar to Alerts. You click it, you get a list of say 10 missions which match your parameters, and you can manually refresh this list once every 20 seconds or so. As long as a mission or bounty exists for a thing, you can search for it. That way, being able to pick your difficulty level in increments of 10 wouldn't really be much of an issue with matchmaking.

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Division games do PVE very, very well. DE could learn a lot from their systems. I badly want scaling PVE content in WF. current scaling is either pure trash, or nonexistent, or too time consuming.

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As far as Warframe AND the Star Chart is concerned, would it not make more sense to go the other way?

Rather then raise all the Star Chart - which would in many cases turn a low level mission into _exactly_ the same High level mission higher on the Chart somewhere, instead have more "challenge" style missions appear on low level Star Chart areas, with limits on points/builds/weapons/etc?

I'm only suggesting this from a "fun things to do" perspective as at least this way we would have to play around with custom builds rather then just grabbing the "old reliable" 20 Forma, dual Arcanes, 6 Revives, etc etc monsters we ALREADY drag around in Level 150 missions. The lower the zone, the lower points available for the build in "challenge mode".

If you have to fiddle a build to finish a challenge mission it gives you something to do. If you make the entire Star Chart a high level "flat zone" any Corpus area is just like any other Corpus area, while still having your Top Tier build being taken into it.

If the only thing you actually want is Higher Level enemies "sooner", it would be easier for DE to have more options for high level missions, would it not?

 

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