Why are warframe abilitys so inconsistent.

[(PSN)FK2P]

Saryn. Build up her spores and play actively and you have the opertunity to keep killing forever provides you can keep yourself safe, and alive. Which is her drawback.

Ember can proc damage in the hundreds, a nice area of effect blast, and has a stun which buffs that damage to damage in the low thousends. You have the opertunity to be dead.

Revenant, a new warframe, can block 17 attacks at ANY damage... that could be 17.000.000.000 damage , 17 times enough to turn rhino prime into pesto. Oh... and he gets an ultimate that can deal 12.000 damage multiple times per second and automatic switches to the enemies weak elements. Oh and if your in the open that can kill a huge area of all enemies. You have the opertunity to play well, and stay alive. FANTASTIC WARFRAME. He has drawbacks, but you can play around them.

Atlas, late game, can place a wall that will be broken again in a few seconds, summon some friends to join him in death, punch one thing fairly hard while getting shot, and ... well keep petrify as it is because that’s his saving grace.

Wisp, can laugh st Ember while she goes invisible, summons a sun that I hear deals finisher damage... and drops useful buffs and has some nice aggro denial. Hmmm.

Hydroid, can spend an hour in a puddle, while a high level enemy trickles down health, while another dps warframe wishes he didn’t exist so that they could cast spores on them...

Octavia, can reduce enemy aggro to ZERO, rendering all enemies running around chasing her ball, while their damage is reflected back at them, oh and she can go invisible, buff the team an immense amount, and her damage scales. Okay. 

Chroma, has to self damage himself to get out his damage potential, which is around 900% damage. Not bad. But his 1 struggles to kill level 30 enemies, his 4 drains energy to sit in the sky and look pathetic and his 2 is a weaker version of Oberon. Ok Pros and cons with that one. Probably would have wanted a proper dragon as a 4, that draws all enemy fire like octavia YA KNOW BECAUSE A HUGE DRAGON WOULD BE REALLY SCARY AND YOU WOULD LOOK AT IT, but NO, a small BALL, seems to get all the attention here... 

You all probably have different opinions on certain frames, but DAMN, the inconsistency is terrible...

Edited June 10, 2019 by Haldos
Edited by Moderator.

[LSG501]

If you remove crowd control abilities, the issues with frames in most cases boil down to if the ability has scaling or not and/or the type of damage it does. 

If you have a frame with a scaling ability (like saryn spore), then 'usually' they're pretty good for most levels of enemies, give it a fixed value (ember wof) and no matter what we do there will be a point where the ability becomes essentially useless, when that is depends on how high that value is.  Throw in a damage type that does very little to most enemies and well you get the idea. 

[Madway7]

Revenant is almost 10 months old, wouldn't call him new anymore

[LuckyCharm]

Thing with this game you'll come to realise is they rarely if ever do across the board changes to things. Some frames have needed love since their release, some have needed it since they were first teased on dev streams even. But they have so many frames, and more on the way that with every new release it feels like it adds more to the timer of when things will get touched. 

Well that and the meta shifts a lot when they buff or nerf things, so what used to be effective may not be effective now. Vauban for example used to be a must play for many a game mode. Havent seen one at all recently

[Loza03]

Because DE has yet to update enemies to have ways to organically resist Warframe powers to make powers more situational, like most enduring games with good combat systems do. Or hell, like most enduring games with any combat. Even Mario does this. Pretty sure the only big one that doesn't is, like... Kirby. Maybe Dynasty Warriors depending on how loosely you want to define this - but even that substitutes by limiting your capabilities in other ways, usually geographic distance between the points you're needed.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

16 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Thing with this game you'll come to realise is they rarely if ever do across the board changes to things. Some frames have needed love since their release, some have needed it since they were first teased on dev streams even. But they have so many frames, and more on the way that with every new release it feels like it adds more to the timer of when things will get touched. 

Well that and the meta shifts a lot when they buff or nerf things, so what used to be effective may not be effective now. Vauban for example used to be a must play for many a game mode. Havent seen one at all recently

Yeah, if only DE could come up with a metric, or standard or even listen to feedback when a Frame is release and take action, we wouldn't be in this position.

Til this day it baffles me that we have a Warframe whose power consist of turning into a puddle, and after years later they decided, "Oh perhaps we should give him a way to interact while in the puddle?"

[selig_fay]

il y a 11 minutes, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru a dit :

Yeah, if only DE could come up with a metric, or standard or even listen to feedback when a Frame is release and take action, we wouldn't be in this position.

Til this day it baffles me that we have a Warframe whose power consist of turning into a puddle, and after years later they decided, "Oh perhaps we should give him a way to interact while in the puddle?"

Nyx and her absorption appeared much earlier. Maybe a hydroid needs just an augment that allows him to fire? xD

Révélation

sarcasm

 

[Xzorn]

Frames are supposed to be somewhat unique.

I kinda felt this was more going to be a subject on things like +%Damage being calculate three difference ways.

I mean honestly if they can't get the core rules of the game to be consistent why bother asking for anything else?

[JohnLemon123]

As you said yourself by mentioning the newer frame's capabilities, it really just comes down to how old the ''lesser'' warframes are, and how much change DE is willing to give them upon reworks.

Obviously, that doesn't necessarily mean that older frames are doomed to mediocrity. hell, excalibur, one of the very first frames, went from average to amazing with the simple addition of exalted blade (yes, i know the javelins are bad). In much the same way, reworks may sometimes catapult previously unpopular (or underwhelming) frames to greatness, as we've seen with limbo or nezha.

But... i doesn't always end up that way. As we've seen multiple times, reworks may not always make something mediocre great (ember, nyx, atlas, titania, zephyr), and that's often due to a key difference between good and bad reworks : the presence / absence of an underlying goal, and the willingness to do away with things that are simply beyond saving.

to cut back to the frames that got pretty weak reworks : world on fire shouldn't exist anymore, nor should psychic bolts (or absorb for that matter), and neither should bulwark. they contributed NOTHING to their frame's gameplay, and should've been completely replaced, but weren't. yes, they CAN be made to work in specific circumstances, but remain poor thanks mostly to how clunky and restricted they are due to their age.

as for who gets what first well... it unfortunately rests solely on either : a designer's whim (aka saryn's 50 reworks) or : upcoming marketable stuff related to that frame (primes or deluxes). Is it a healthy way to do things ? not really, as we've seen with ember, and how long she's been terrible for. but again, due to how and when frames get reworked, she still can't expect much.

Also, the last few reworks have been considerably less ambitious than those that came before, which really doesn't help.

[(NSW)Kokojo]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Saryn: provides you can keep yourself safe, and alive. Which is her drawback..

This exists

56 minutes ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Revenant. FANTASTIC WARFRAME. He has drawbacks, but you can play around them.

Haha, funny.
Revenant is just a mix of MANY already used abilities, a broken concept and he forces you to either use his Synergies OR rely on a single ability.

• Passive: Nova's passive but different threshold.
• 1 - Nyx's 1 but SURPRISINGLY worse. You and your teammates can, AND WILL, kill all of them. The energy pillars are close to useless.
• 2 - Here's where I give him credit: I can't see any ability that can do this. Here's where he loose this credit: What's sentient about this? Not mentioning that it's a 2 handed action, slow, stops you in place and you NEED synergies to keep this on. Also, this somewhat trivialize his 1.
• 3 - Rhino, Hydroid, Excalibur but, well, SURPRISINGLY worse. You life steal from enemies AND does extra damage/ life steal on your own thralls. This is a MUST USE WITH YOUR 1 AND 3 if you want to keep your 2 up all times, considering that your thralls are alive that is.
• 4 - Credit: This is fun to look and use and it feels sentient. This is the only thing I can like about Revenent. However, it's synergies are useless... Thralls killed by this (provided they are alive to begin with) drop overshield that he cannot to anything with it. The pillars "explode" dealing "damage" if the beans didn't kill anything close to it, Damage afflicted on your 2 accumulates to retaliate back, but you put enemies to sleep when they hit you, so you can't accumulate that much, unless it's a burst. Your 3 now cost 50% less, ok then? The micromanagement that is required for you use this ability at it's full potential it's what kills it, witch I dare you to keep this activated nre than 5sec while trying to maintain Mesmer Skin stacks.

His design is broken, his synergies are micromanagement hell, the only thing saving him is immunity and trash clear capabilities.
 

1 hour ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

You all probably have different opinions on certain frames, but DAMN, the inconsistency is terrible... Do DE know about how wildly poor some frames are compared to others? do they treat some warframes like the AKFURIS, and others like the ALSTILLETO? Are some frames destined to be trash tier? 

Most Warframes have being designed by different people at DE, the group who design Khora didn't design Garuda, so it's obviously inconsistent, because many different people are working in a single character. Unless a single guy does all the designs, you can expect to see more and more inconsistency for future Warframes/Rework.

Titania, Revenant and Khora are an example of it.

Titania's designers literally said they somewhat regret making her, that reflects on her kit and how her "changes" was done.

Revenant, again, had a all over the place concept that even Rebecca thought he was a "vampire" themed.

Khora was meant to be a IPS based Warframe with a exalted whip. Well, you can see where that went.

So, no, NO Warframe was or is designed to be trash. It depends on the team who made them, if they still have passion AND material if changes are needed, if they think about the core gameplay before just "oh that's neat", and what they're suppose to do.

 

[Singrave]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

Unless a single guy does all the designs, you can expect to see more and more inconsistency for future Warframes/Rework.

let's stop on this one.

/thread

 

[selig_fay]

il y a 23 minutes, JohnLemon123 a dit :

(ember, nyx, atlas, titania, zephyr)

Because it was not reworks. They simply took the old abilities and improved them a little, while Sarina or Nezha received not only improvements, but also new mechanics.

il y a 21 minutes, (NSW)Kokojo a dit :

Revenant

In spite of all this, the Revenant takes a fairly good position. Everything that you described has no problems in the game itself, because in fact its 1 and 3 are not so weak and I can kill a slave in 1 use. If you use Ultimate constantly, then it’s perfectly logical that you lose all the slaves. If you want to play through 1, then just do not use the ult all the time. Yes, you cannot accumulate tremendous damage from ultimate, but just try to do it with ally Loki and his invulnerability. I really don’t know if this will work, but theoretically, it might not be a very bad bundle.In any case, there are all kinds of resists, such as Gara or Trinity, who can protect you. If you are doing a DPS build, then you definitely have to lose most of your protection, and I agree with this logic. Moreover, you can still quickly move from a DPS position to a tank position simply by turning off the ultimate and starting to use its other abilities. Yes, the Revenant has problems, but they are not critical.

Edited June 5, 2019 by zhellon

[Chipputer]

24 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

2 - Here's where I give him credit: I can't see any ability that can do this. Here's where he loose this credit: What's sentient about this? Not mentioning that it's a 2 handed action, slow, stops you in place and you NEED synergies to keep this on. Also, this somewhat trivialize his 1.

You don't NEED synergies to keep it on. You can recast at any time and you can do the tried and true, "aim glide while casting to stay mobile." On top of that, the casting speed isn't even that long. I don't understand why people seem to think that any ability that isn't instantaneous is too slow. It gets old. I also don't get how having 7 allies somehow trivializes him blocking any damage that comes his way. You're still a target.

Though the sentient complaint is good. Revenant isn't very sentient at all.

[(NSW)Kokojo]

4 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Because it was not reworks. They simply took the old abilities and improved them a little, while Sarina or Nezha received not only improvements, but also new mechanics.

In spite of all this, the Revenant takes a fairly good position. Everything that you described has no problems in the game itself, because in fact its 1 and 3 are not so weak and I can kill a slave in 1 use. If you use Ultimate constantly, then it’s perfectly logical that you lose all the slaves. If you want to play through 1, then just do not use the ult all the time. Yes, you cannot accumulate tremendous damage from ultimate, but just try to do it with ally Loki and his invulnerability. I really don’t know if this will work, but theoretically, it might not be a very bad bundle.Yes, the Revenant has problems, but they are not critical.

The problem is not his damage output, but his 1 and everything that it its synergies.

You need living thralls to set up a hell upon the enemies, you need thralls to not re-cast his 2 all the time, you need thralls for the extra bit of are coverage, but WHO will keep an eye on multiple enemy A.I randomly spreading itself across the room? Why would any of your random teammates would care about that? Sure you can go solo OR build a squad to support you, but that's the problem! His powers are MEANT to be used together, and for what it should do, it's WAY too much Micromanagement of enemy A.I!

Look at Gara, her abilities work perfectly fine alone, being the synergies just bonuses

Look at Nezha, his powers work perfectly fine alone, being synergies just bonus

Look at the new Waframe Wisp, her powers work perfectly fine alone being synergies just a bonus

Revenant kit does not work fine without the synergies.

[(NSW)Kokojo]

6 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

You don't NEED synergies to keep it on. You can recast at any time and you can do the tried and true, "aim glide while casting to stay mobile." On top of that, the casting speed isn't even that long. I don't understand why people seem to think that any ability that isn't instantaneous is too slow. It gets old. I also don't get how having 7 allies somehow trivializes him blocking any damage that comes his way. You're still a target.

Oh you can recast his 2? My bad, didn't know that.
But that means it's easier to you just hit 2 again rather than try to get a couple stacks back with his 1+2+3, thus making another synergy bad.

And no, I don't think that any ability that isn't instantaneous is too slow, I think that any ability that stops you from doing anything to provide you a small buff is too slow.

Why do you think Ash's Smoke Screen got changed?

Why do you think Hydroid's 1 and 4 got changed?

Why do you think allowing abilities to be cast in the air is a thing they are playing with it now?

Edited June 5, 2019 by (NSW)Kokojo

[Xaxma]

38 minutes ago, JohnLemon123 said:

as for who gets what first well... it unfortunately rests solely on either : a designer's whim (aka saryn's 50 reworks) or : upcoming marketable stuff related to that frame (primes or deluxes). Is it a healthy way to do things ? not really, as we've seen with ember, and how long she's been terrible for. but again, due to how and when frames get reworked, she still can't expect much.

Also, the last few reworks have been considerably less ambitious than those that came before, which really doesn't help.

That contradicts the fact Ember and Frost prime get unvaulted like 20 times a year. Why would anyone spend money on buying her? Maybe if she was actually DECENT you could see a more lucrative sale of that vault. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Xaxma

[selig_fay]

il y a 14 minutes, (NSW)Kokojo a dit :

Revenant kit does not work fine without the synergies.

Why? 1 ability distracts the attention of enemies from you and gives microcontrol from puddles that impose the status of impact. Helpful? I think enough.

The third ability restores your health and makes you invulnerable for a short time, and also deals enough damage to kill an enemy of any level in 6-10 uses. Yes, without slaves, this is not so effective, but I would not call the ability weak in itself. In the end, imagine that you simply do not have other items to restore your health. Yes, I know that you do not need your HP, but still. Invulnerability is not going anywhere.

Ultimate? He can kill all around the Revenant with no problems until the 100th level very quickly. Do you really think this is weak?

And yes, Gara is OP, do not give it at all as an example of balance.

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by zhellon

[(NSW)Kokojo]

12 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Why? 1 ability distracts the attention of enemies from you and gives microcontrol from puddles that impose the status of impact. Helpful? I think enough

Inconsistency, you are working with one of the worst A.I of the game. If it did Nyx's 1 would be a great form of survivability for the team.

12 minutes ago, zhellon said:

The third ability restores your health and makes you invulnerable for a short time, and also deals enough damage to kill an enemy of any level in 6-10 uses.

So does my unranked (inset any weapon here) that I can just shoot anywhere. And you will spent 95% of the game away from lvl 6-10 because this is a loot game, better loot is more often found on higher lvl missions.

12 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Yes, without slaves, this is not so effective, but I would not call the ability weak in itself. In the end, imagine that you simply do not have other items to restore your health. Yes, I know that you do not need your HP, but still. Invulnerability is not going anywhere.

You have your 2 for that, making 3 invulnerability yet another passable mechanic for him. Not useless, a panic button is always a good thing, but passable nonetheless.

12 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Ultimate? He can kill all around the remedy with no problems until the 100th level very quickly. Do you really think this is weak?

 

21 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

The problem is not his damage output

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by (NSW)Kokojo

[Ham_Grenabe]

I think the inconsistency comes from the difference between how the designers envision the game being played, and how it's actually played. 

That right there is enough to account for it. The fantastic interplay of CC and damage and environmental control and area denial that you imagine in your head runs headlong into the reality of sub-2 minute mission times where 2 players delete the enemy and 2 trundle along behind playing Space Janitor. 

So no. DE does not intentionally make frames weak (that is, they're not like, "Let's make this frame garbage!" and cackling madly) but they're not going to warp the vision in their heads into compliance.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[Dragazer]

2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Chroma, has to self damage himself to get out his damage potential, which is around 900% damage. Not bad. But his 1 struggles to kill level 30 enemies, his 4 drains energy to sit in the sky and look pathetic and his 2 is a weaker version of Oberon. Ok Pros and cons with that one. Probably would have wanted a proper dragon as a 4, that draws all enemy fire like octavia YA KNOW BECAUSE A HUGE DRAGON WOULD BE REALLY SCARY AND YOU WOULD LOOK AT IT, but NO, a small BALL, seems to get all the attention here... 

To make things worse his dmg/armor buff only scales additive with mods. So Rhino with a fully modded weapon will deal more dmg despite seeing a lower % buff on his roar due to the fact that Roar scales multiplicative 

[selig_fay]

il y a 25 minutes, (NSW)Kokojo a dit :

Inconsistency, you are working with one of the worst A.I of the game. If it did Nyx's 1 would be a great form of survivability for the team.

Let me show you something.

Révélation

 

This is what I love Titania’s butterflies for.

Edited June 5, 2019 by zhellon

[(NSW)Kokojo]

3 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Let me show you something.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

If I test Nyx's 1 one on a box will work wonderfully.

Take that same ability and throw on real game environment.

[selig_fay]

il y a 4 minutes, (NSW)Kokojo a dit :

If I test Nyx's 1 one on a box will work wonderfully. 

Nyx's slave does not have a generator of aggression.

il y a 5 minutes, (NSW)Kokojo a dit :

Take that same ability and throw on real game environment. 

If you have doubts about the fact that the mechanics work poorly, you can provide proof of this. If you simply think that the ability is useless to you, then this does not make the ability bad.

[--DSP--Jetstream]

13 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

ITake that same ability and throw on real game environment.

Yeah some frames ability only work wonderfully on sim or only when youre the host, for example like zephyr tornadoes. On real game environment its pure trash and unreliable, even worse if the host has more than 200 ping, sometime it just appear anywhere but on the enemies. Compared to lets say, mesa guns, it always 100% work, reliable, not affected by whether youre host or client, when you activate it function properly as expected.

[(NSW)Kokojo]

6 minutes ago, zhellon said:

If you have doubts about the fact that the mechanics work poorly, you can provide proof of this. If you simply think that the ability is useless to you, then this does not make the ability bad.

 

1 minute ago, --DSP--Jetstream said:

Yeah some frames ability only work wonderfully on sim or only when youre the host, for example like zephyr tornadoes. On real game environment its pure trash and unreliable, even worse if the host has more than 200 ping, sometime it just appear anywhere but on the enemies. Compared to lets say, mesa guns, it always 100% work, reliable, not affected by whether youre host or client, when you activate it function properly as expected.

Here's my proof.

The ability is not useless, it's just really bad.
You can use it, don't expect anything form it, specially when you are on a pub squad or not coordinated team.