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moostar95

Do you people really want a endgame?

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Posted (edited)

If people want a challenge in Warframe, they need to ask for two things - to have their powers reigned in a bit: spam, range, control, damage, energy availability, etc, and to have their weapon damage severely crunched.  I'm talking Serration knocked down to +30% max, and you take that OR split chamber, not both, only two elemental types at a time (or one advanced and that's it,) etc.

Otherwise... if people won't accept nerfs to their kit and ability spam, the alternative is to watch as power creep continuously renders previously hard content easy, which is fine by me.  Lotus knows I don't want a "level 100 enemies better lock down the entire room" hard game.  I want level 30-40 enemies - a threat, but usually not instantly lethal nor spongy.  If in the end through mods I can increase armor, shields and health by over 1000-1500% to trivialize sorties, I'll be okay with that.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer

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Why was this topic necessary to make? We just got done with the flood of tryhards acting like they wanted end game but actually just wanted a bunch of, "scaling," rewards because they want an easy ticket to farm faster. Wasn't that month or two of discussion enough?

Yes. People want endgame. The people who actually want it, though, want the game to be balanced before we get it but, in the mean time, wouldn't mind being thrown a bone like having the option to level scale missions so we can fight against challenging enemies quickly. Most of us just want to test our builds instead of gimping them to artificially increase the challenge.

On another note: There are no possible rewards (sans things like Rivens) that this game can offer you that will matter. To deny this is to show a fundamental lack of understanding about the game as a whole. To tie endgame into rewards is objectively wrong. DE would need to create an entirely new system, or tweak the game from a fundamental level, in order for scaling end game rewards to matter. Right now only scaling Credits, Kuva, and Endo will do anything for you.

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yeah for me endgame is much needed. there used to raids for endgame which needed coordination but now it's just crap lvl 50-60 enemies in disruptions and arbritrations, pointlessly staying up 1-2 hours,  inorder to get any decent challenge. hell i consider sorties lvl 80-100 as a good starting point for endgame, i can't for the life of me understand DE's obsession with starting missions at low levels. this is endgame we are talking about, only for the best, it doesn't have to be inclusive for everybody so earn that powercreep damnit. it's also why i hated when DE nerfed the fortuna enemies due to people's whining and powercreep is okay, hell every game has powercreep that just means bringing stronger enemies, better tactics and powers to combat tenno. They just need to remove this S#&$ty lower lvl cap and let us start from lvl 100.  most people don't have 40-60 mins on their hands before things get interesting, just imagine combining the enemies from both fortuna and disruption mode, but starting at lvl 100 with sortie lvl rewards, scaling endo and scaling kuva. that's what endgame for me is. speaking of endgame, we also desperately need scaling rewards, 10k kuva for 2 hour survival is unacceptable. a very good endgame model i consider is the one in index, perfect scaling, challenge and even reward in the millions of credits if you know your stuff. you can even get john prodman's autograph after 1 hour index with lvl 250 enemies. so in short what i believe DE needs for endgame is higher starting lvl enemies, faster scaling and scaling rewards, otherwise the vets will continue leaving this game only to end up coming back for 1-2 weeks when a major update hits before going back into hibernation. these are my opinions. you can agree to disagree.

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Believe it or not Eidolons are legit endgame. If you experienced the first few days of Shrine of Eidolon update (when people not yet found out the Shield Disruption exploit) it's the time we were closest to getting an endgame. Now everyone is just exploiting Sniper Rifles and Focus and call it easy.

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Yes. I want endgame. Seen folks like LifeOfRio also talk about endgame and many people in his video comments echoing the same..

And to stop people asking for nerfs on the enemies, these new foes should be put into a mode clearly marketed as endgame. E.g. Level 150-200 written clearly on Mission preview. You can use terms like "Elite (insert mode)" e.g. "Elite Arbitration" "Elite Invasion" "Elite Sortie" etc.  Make it clear it is going to be difficult so people don't go in expecting to rank up their MR fodder equipment and later ask for nerfs cos the enemies don't enable them to. Even have restrictions that include :Your gear must be rank 30 to participate.

Good endgame enemies should be:

1) Tanky

2) Not ability immune but ability resistant. They take less damage from DPS abilities, and CC abilities duration last for shorter duration. But they still work on them

I think sentient-related enemies already had some mechanic like this but they were introduced in lore stories and star chart level content. Possible to bring them back at higher levels

After we have that in place, enemies should hopefully get:

3) Smarter individual enemy  AI with varied move sets that adapt according to player load out. You like shotgun  / snipers with low fire rate? Enemies move a bit more unpredictably. You like to melee, they bring their riot shields and do more stomping. You like to spray bullets everywhere? They stop walking into your bullet stream and take cover

 

A good endgame also justifies why we have strong warframes and weapons, will reduce people asking for nerfs on player power because the power is needed in later modes.

 

 

 

Optional: Game mode where players can play as enemies to slow down the Tenno.  When you play as the enemy, the goal is not to team wipe the tenno - still want some of that power fantasy I know many enjoy to remain. But when you play as enemy team, you get points just for delaying the Tenno team.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, seprent said:

 to me its 100-150 because eventually you start doing less damage and you are reaching the getting one shot range on some frames because id like the game to be more then inaros nidus rhino and trinity and who ever has the godlyiest riven wins

In my opinion, the game feels great for the frames that I play (Oberon, Nidus, Nova, Mag, Nezha) at 120-150. At 150 you're not quite one-shotting everything, and you can't make too many mistakes. but you still get the power fantasy feel. Which is why I really want the option to start all my missions at that level (as opposed to waiting 30-60mins in endurance). Or getting low level missions shoved down my throat (Fortuna, Nightwave, etc.) in order to get the new gear and experience the new content. in any case, endgame is all about creating an illusion that you're fighting tougher enemies (even though you're power creeped as fuk), but DE doesn't even try to create this necessary illusion. Mind you, they came close with lvl 125 OV Corpus - toughest mofos in the game, but aside from toroid farming no one had to face them.

Edited by Ikyr0

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Posted (edited)

The issue is nobody is concrete on the kind of endgame warframe is best suited for and what it actually means

there should some kind of incentive to keep playing the game with your strongest gear 

While at the same time gameplay pushing you to be on the best of your own abilities

Edited by (PS4)CodyXSavageX
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14 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

I don't particularly want it, but I'll bite whatever comes flying my way. If I don't like it I spit it out.

That's exactly how fish get eaten. Maybe you should think a bit about what you'll bite.

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1 hour ago, Ephemiel said:

That's exactly how fish get eaten. Maybe you should think a bit about what you'll bite.

i at-least make sure the thing im biting is edible like this turkey ham sandwich for instance 

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I thought the Tridolons was the endgame when I first played this game. It seems a daunting task to grind for the amps, focus, proper gear, copious amount of practice on the Teralyst to eventually graduate on killing the Hydrolyst. It seems to have a fair, logical progression and difficulty. DE GOT IT RIGHT the first time.

For me, It was reasonable, so the trek should not be easy. But not everyone liked the idea of having an operator to train and making that a mandatory step to clear the Tridolons. Worst, some ignored it completely simply because they can. DE got spooked, buckled and cut off the mining and fishing needed and made it a lot simpler by providing all the resources on a jumping four legged pinata robot. I do not know what advantage they got after nuking it but it showed how DE will sacrifice any of their original ideas for the sake of pleasing its players. Never mind those who toiled to do their bidding initially, but who cares? As long as everyone is happy.

Following this attitude and tendencies exhibited by DE, I do not think they have guts to ever make a solid challenging end game. Anything they will attempt to create that involves grinding, preparation with a touch of exclusivity by merit will only crash and burn because they are almost sure their players always knows what is best. Being receptive is OK, but IMO it does not always work. Just look at the recent over hyped pushover boss fights they are churning out. Just completely forgettable encounters aimed to please but not offer any challenge for fear of a whinging player base. I just hope Railjack will not end like this.

 

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16 hours ago, moostar95 said:

In this point  of time,  powercreep is beyond broken.  WE got room cleaning frames and given foes that have no threat. DE can try to fix the scaling but now I think its not even going to stop the mess we're in. Anytime DE adds in new foes, players whine to them to make them easier to kill. only to whine to make them more of a threat again. the community can't makes up it mind if its EVEN ready for a endgame if the majority of players want to keep using their op builds on trash mobs that THEY complain are too easy then before. (like how the corpus worked in Fortuna at launch.)   I could NOT care about endgame to be honest as im more worried about old frames being reworked into crap for them to work at a endgame level. 

They can always nerf and buff...

 

But they need to fix and tweak on the Level Scaling, DMG 3.0, pets and sentinels 2.0, AI pathing overhaul for more different mechanics vs player.

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Three things come to mind for endgameish content.

Nightmare mode starchart runs. Like Nightmare mode but ramped up to 11. *currently in the works, will post when it's finished as a thread*

Much more intelligent ai.

Enemies being able to actually hurt the player outside just my numbers bigger than yours.

All for Artificial Difficulty upvote this. All for Designed Difficulty just use anything else 😄

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6 minutes ago, Alpha_Tango said:

I thought the Tridolons was the endgame when I first played this game. It seems a daunting task to grind for the amps, focus, proper gear, copious amount of practice on the Teralyst to eventually graduate on killing the Hydrolyst. It seems to have a fair, logical progression and difficulty. DE GOT IT RIGHT the first time.

For me, It was reasonable, so the trek should not be easy. But not everyone liked the idea of having an operator to train and making that a mandatory step to clear the Tridolons. Worst, some ignored it completely simply because they can. DE got spooked, buckled and cut off the mining and fishing needed and made it a lot simpler by providing all the resources on a jumping four legged pinata robot. I do not know what advantage they got after nuking it but it showed how DE will sacrifice any of their original ideas for the sake of pleasing its players. Never mind those who toiled to do their bidding initially, but who cares? As long as everyone is happy.

Following this attitude and tendencies exhibited by DE, I do not think they have guts to ever make a solid challenging end game. Anything they will attempt to create that involves grinding, preparation with a touch of exclusivity by merit will only crash and burn because they are almost sure their players always knows what is best. Being receptive is OK, but IMO it does not always work. Just look at the recent over hyped pushover boss fights they are churning out. Just completely forgettable encounters aimed to please but not offer any challenge for fear of a whinging player base. I just hope Railjack will not end like this.

 

not sure if it's a saying or not. 

But trying to make everyone happy makes no one happy. Feels like it sums up de massively rn.

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This definitely falls into the Stockholm syndrome category... Please don't make anymore excuses for DE.

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Just now, TalonBlue said:

This definitely falls into the Stockholm syndrome category... Please don't make anymore excuses for DE.

ikr? 

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I think a lot of the community (and evidently maybe this OP) misunderstands what we actually want from DE, and how come we "whine"/complain about all the new content.

We aren't complaining that we aren't able to kill certain things quickly enough, we're complaining about the fact that half of the things that we utilize in our arsenal don't actually have any effect on enemies, specifically the newer ones that have been introduced recently.

Take the demolyst for example, sure it's a bullet sponge and a dangerous target that cannot be killed immediately (unless you're bringing the meta or semi-meta stuff), but that's okay! That's what CC is for! right? To incapacitate the dangerous enemies you can't just straight up kill! Oh wait... but you can't CC the demolyst... (in a meaningful way) so CC is useless I guess.

BUT WAIT! If we can't CC him, we can try and boost our damage output before he reaches the terminal! Using our trusty condition overload melee weapon along with our buffing frame (chroma rhino etc). Nothing could go wrong! 

*gets nullified*

Well shiť, now my Chroma's buff is gone. Aw shiț now the terminal is dead! 😞

So to recap, the demolyst semi-directly restricts your gear choices available to kill it, basically invalidating the entire point of you getting those ultra damaging things in the first place (buff frames, CO melee weapons), you are also unable to CC the demolyst in any significant manner (besides operators), which completely defeats the point of CC frames and CC in general, which is to incapacitate hard to kill/dangerous enemies so you can kill them easier.

This is just a small slice of the new content pie, there are MANY more enemies other than the demolyst that half of the time ignore elements of gameplay that players had specifically built towards in hindsight to FIGHT those specific enemies. It's almost a slap in the face if you ask me.

Other enemies include that nulli drone that gives normal enemies nullifiers (fortuna), the nullifying units that it buffs don't have a shootable drone, therefore not incentivizing player skill and single shot weapons.

Running nullifiers on Jupiter are another example, although not as badly. They remove the one weakness that nullifiers originally had, and that was that they had low mobility and therefore being nullified, while annoying, was more often a product of the players fault by walking into the bubble yourself. Running nullifiers are not like this, they will chase you down, and since they run so quickly and erratically (cus AI pathing) it is near impossible to shoot the drone and makes it common to be clipped through huge parts of geometry by its bubble completely out of your control.

The general trend that the game is headed towards is, "make the powerful parts of the players arsenal useless, make the CC that WOULD be useful be completely ignored by enemies, and lower the overall options a player has to fight certain adversaries". 

Like seriously, the entire game from Earth to Sedna is easily beatable with a no forma excal with some mediocre survivability mods, and a STRUN with point blank and contagious spread ONLY. That strun takes out trash grineer Lancers in 1 shot on hydron, and tougher units in 2-4. There is LITERALLY only 3 reasons players actually put more mods and Forma into weapons and frames.

1. They like to flesh out builds.

2. They do endurance runs and therefore actually need the strong weapons.

3. They're building up gear power in the hopes that future content will requires it.

This third reason is actually starting to apply now! Content like disruption actually requires some gear power to take down certain amalgams and the demolyst, but at the same time, DE is cockblocking the playerbase with gear restrictions, basically saying "all that power you built up? Ya, we aren't letting you use any of that, have some nullifiers."

Frankly, I'm honestly scared for the future of content, I'm scared that new content will follow this trend of ability restriction and gear restriction. In a few years time if this trend continues, we may be looking at a Warframe but missing the frame part of the name, where your frame choice literally doesn't matter because all your abilities don't do anything, and if they do they get nullified immediately, so then everybody runs around with Inaros since he's the best frame choice if you have absolutely zero ability usage.

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17 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

No. The moment we get something that is too hard, even if its INTENTED to be too hard, people will complain that its too hard and DE will make it go flacid.

I agree 100percent. Their are too many examples of this from other games. People can't finish the content and just quit. Division's first few updates no one came back.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TalonBlue said:

This definitely falls into the Stockholm syndrome category... Please don't make anymore excuses for DE.

You can either let them make an Endgame so those people who are bored with nothing to do or feel their stuff is OP, can have a place to use their OP gear on and feel challenge and meaning. And as they fight stronger enemies, they feel their OP gear is useful and required in the game.

Or you can let the game remain as it is with little difficult content and you end up with some people staring at their OP gear for so long until they start asking for nerfs on their own equipment just to make everyone's lives more inefficient at clearing easy content - as though that is meaningful or difficult, but that's what they think they are accomplishing. Then the nerf hammer actually hits and people that mained X,Y,Z thing and loved it get upset that what they liked is wrecked. 

Personally, I don't ask for nerfs. I don't main anything and I regard all my frames as tools. Still, I spent time and in some cases, money, to get certain pieces of gear to the levels of power I want them to be, and I don't want my effort being trashcanned unilaterally from the developers, with no recourse. It's like you buy a brand new powerful gaming PC decked out to play the latest games in the market at highest setting. And then you wake up one day and suddenly you find your PC just stopped being able to handle the best games because some person broke into your house that night and stole only the gaming graphics card and RAM of your PC, leaving you with just bare minimum so now you all can do is run Microsoft Office. You will feel cheated and pissed. But in the context of nerfs of player power, it usually can be traced back to either money hungry developers who are not happy at the rate at which players are clearing their content (EA, cough cough) OR just some unhappy players who are bored and attribute their boredom to the wrong thing, and ask for nerfs. From what I know about Warframe nerfs, usually it's the players that cause it. (also if you own a very good PC but there exists no software that can utilize its full potential, do you go and downgrade your PC just because of a lack of software that can stretch your PC's limits? most normal people will not).

In any case, I want endgame and explained what I hope to see in it, as mentioned in a previous post. Get endgame, and we get reasons for strong weapons to exist. People who want a challenge have a place to find a challenge. People that want easy stuff or a power trip can bring their overleveled gear to  star chart maps and still enjoy that.  New players will have goals to work towards and understand why X,Y,Z OP gear exists, because its needed for later. More ways to play. More happy faces. 

Edited by Xepthrichros

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Ephemiel said:

That's exactly how fish get eaten. Maybe you should think a bit about what you'll bite.

Why? Because I focus on enjoying the game? So far most things I tried I like. I don't like ESO, for example, so I don't play it. Because I'm aware that not everything in the game must suit me. But that's just my take on it tbh. On the other hand I enjoy Arbitrations a lot, where many dislike them strongly. 

But the one consant thing in this game is entitled people whining about how x content isn't to their liking, so it should be changed to appease to them or outright removed even if it doesn't really affect them. That goes for all game modes, frames, weapons, open worlds, etc. Give me a good example of something added recently that everyone embraced with no criticism.

In the end, you may ask or not for x. It doesn't matter. You may think you have the best solution. And it might be, for a group of like-minded players. But guess what. That solution doesn't fit all other players. Which is why sometimes you don't have to like it. You can try it or not, and you can certainly ignore it if it isn't to your liking. You can provide feedback on it and it'll still be an opinion that might go unanswered in the end. Because opinions aren't facts. Because sometimes there's more sides to a problem than anyone might see.

Nothing is perfect, and in a game with as much variety as warframe sometimes you have to acknowledge not everything is meant for you. And that's ok. Even if something eventually falls out of pace with the rest of the game and needs to be reworked to reflect current-day values. You call it "being eaten", I call it living life as it goes.

---

As for the topic itself - endgame - want to know why I said what I did at the beginning? Because there's no such thing as true endgame in Warframe. Because you can't really have endgame when the same community that cries so hard for it also cries hard when it arrives in any form and wants it nerfed or cheeseable. Because no matter the content we always find a way to get it trough in minutes and with the least effort (the so called meta approach). Because Eidolons, Sorties, ESO, Trials, Orbs, Arbitrations, long runs, etc are all endgame. All of them are above-starchart experiences. We are the ones too overpowered for them, and yet we avoid nerfs like a vampire avoids garlic. Because we want a problem fixed, but we raise a huge stink at any and all attempts to solve that problem.

Don't get me wrong. I mostly enjoy being overpowered. I also like the occasional challenge. So yeah, live life as it goes by.  Be happy. That's my approach to problems I can't solve, at least while they stay unsolvable.

Edited by (PS4)Hikuro-93
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Posted (edited)

So what's problem to make this

Спойлер

4B11B759177795B39D38E021AE22EDFD87741068

with this

Спойлер

 

 

 

 

for old players. Just need big map and few thousands high-level mobs.

And I dont think problem of new mobs in power, that's cool they can give u sigarette. Some mobs just have unfair damage resist. Why we need up Serration to r10 and collect powerfull riven mods, if Lephantis or Eidolons always reducing damage to ridiculous numbers. That's not hard, that's stupid when my eyes see it.

Edited by AR3E

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3 hours ago, AR3E said:

So what's problem to make this

  Hide contents

4B11B759177795B39D38E021AE22EDFD87741068

with this

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

for old players. Just need big map and few thousands high-level mobs.

And I dont think problem of new mobs in power, that's cool they can give u sigarette. Some mobs just have unfair damage resist. Why we need up Serration to r10 and collect powerfull riven mods, if Lephantis or Eidolons always reducing damage to ridiculous numbers. That's not hard, that's stupid when my eyes see it.

Do you have other idea to deal with those r10 serration and riven mods other than massive bullet sponge?

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Yes people want it. The "no" people just can ignore it. But we will just get a real endgame if they rework the modding system. Thats the core of the problem. Until then: nope. Its pointless.

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18 hours ago, krc473 said:

I understand that. That’s why I said “a lot of” the complaints. It is hard to make a good case for something being too strong based on 30 seconds in one mission, actually using it helps. Once you have used an item you can make a fairer judgement. Yes, some stuff is too strong. The question is: does this actually matter? Generally, I don’t think it does.

  • I have no issues with power creep in PvE games.

I used almost all frames in a wide variety of gamemodes, even in endurance runs and actually: it does matter.

 

It makes it insanely hard for the devs to create some challenging enemies if frames like covert lethality Ivara or in general just octavia, make them trivial.

To be able to create some sort of meaningful challenge in the game they would need to revamp almost all frames to a decend power level

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1 hour ago, Kyoresh said:

I used almost all frames in a wide variety of gamemodes, even in endurance runs and actually: it does matter.

 

It makes it insanely hard for the devs to create some challenging enemies if frames like covert lethality Ivara or in general just octavia, make them trivial.

To be able to create some sort of meaningful challenge in the game they would need to revamp almost all frames to a decend power level

On the contrary, the challenge IS meaningful if we actually even remotely need to care about what sort of gear choice we are picking, instead of just yoloing everything and that being completely fine.

All builds and frames have strengths and weaknesses, things like covert lethality frames (ivara, ash inaros, etc) all have the benefit of being able to ALWAYS kill enemies, but their weakness are that they're kill time is relatively low (it's why only covert lethality ivara is practical in survival, for prowl). Covert lethality is practically useless in 95% of the game, since even level 130 enemies are still easily killable with decently built weapons. The only place it has a purpose is ivara endurance survival and the index.

Octavia on the other hand... ya that's just how she do lol. Scaling damage plus aggro generation and all being great, she just happens to work 99% of the time unless the enemies have armor and are scaled super high.

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On 2019-06-08 at 2:28 PM, angias said:

fist of...wut

second of...casually?

 

I am confused about your numbers, because a tiberon prime with a god riven and bossted by harrow so it has 300% crit will barelly reach that. (If every shot is a headshot)

 

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Tiberon_Prime/t_30_23222240_132-3-5-137-0-10-140-2-5-150-4-10-159-7-5-405-1-5-784-6-10-791-5-0_137-7-405-5-140-5-132-8-150-8-791-9-784-8-159-9/en/2-0-119/221638/

To be clear these numbers are wrong.

The damage are multiplied 2 Time by the burst wich lead to improper damage multiplication.

 

Well that build isn't really optimal, and you're not considering outside buffs like warframes and companions, or even the rare concept of.... coordinated teammates lol. Tiberon is also a dps weapon, but melee is the clear strongest so look at that. Remember, mods like heavy caliber and damage rivens are additive with serration. Same goes for most warframe abilities. Look into optimizing your builds with the mods you have available. Faction mods, marginal benefits, etc. Synergy is key. Spread your multipliers. And for the love of god, don't use viral for damage. If you're going for slash procs, put viral on your secondary like a pox, or if you're using zenistar, try in that. Saryn? Press 4 lol

If you want help on some builds, message me, ill be happy to oblige.

On 2019-06-08 at 4:04 PM, Ham_Grenabe said:

I’m not saying endgame in Warframe. I’m saying endgame in general. It’s not sustainable except for the people who put it on farm. 

What I want from endgame is an interesting g story plus challenging scenario plus, and here’s the impossible dream: it’s never farmable because it’s never the same story or scenario twice.

Destiny 2 had a good model with The Shattered Throne dungeon. They just needed to be releasing a new dungeon like that every week, forever. 

Destiny 2 had a great endgame platform, with their raid, liar, and dungeons system, but even they are starting to fall behind. Season of Opulence being a prime example. That raid was super easy. If i had a full squad of players, i would've been in the first completion race, but we did that raid blind with 4 people. The issue really is just people wanting stuff easier. Some say its a new generation of kids thing, but i disagree.

The simulated tree in D2 is by far one of the best endless missions I've ever played other than warframe survival or defense.

Warframe is lacking heavy in the story telling department, not because of a lack of lore, but rather a lack of story missions, and i don't mean quest, i mean missions with a story. Not every story has to be lore heavy. Just look at are past events like Tubemen of Regor or Eyes of Blight, which had a permanent effect on the game. I will agree with you 100% on this, but i don't feel it's necessary, but would be great.

We agree on the difficulty thing, so no issues lol

With the multiple story idea, I'm all in on it for immersion sake, but for production sake, i don't see it working out.

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