[X-post] Can we discuss "required" mods?

[frostyhobo]

 

[WhiteMarker]

I will never understand people just linking reddit threads.
What do you want from us? Discuss this here in the warframe forum? Do you want us to go to reddit and post in the thread over there?

And what you are bringing up was brought up mutliple times already. The search function is your friend.
If they simply remove mandatory mods from the game, what would happen? Other mods would become mandatory. If people don't have to slot in serration, then they will simply go for the next best thing to maximize DPS. They will go for Reload, Mag Size...
There will always be a meta. This is how gaming works...

Edited June 10, 2019 by WhiteMarker

[frostyhobo]

Either...?

[Ephemiel]

3 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

I will never understand people just linking reddit threads.
What do you want from us? Discuss this here in the warframe forum? Do you want us to go to reddit and post in the thread over there?

Does it being on Reddit magically make it unable to be here?

What i don't understand is people feeling the need to complain about stupid or simple things rather than just keep scrolling.

[Aldain]

The biggest issue I find with "required" mods is that they shift natural power gain with experience you'd find in other games to something that winds up essentially translating to -1 slot since not using most of the "required" either dramatically increases enemy survival time in the case of or comically reduces room for evasion error in the case of survival mods.

Then there's the "soft required" mods like Multi-shot which create wild damage increases on weapons which winds up serve the same point of mods like Serration which equates to another -1 slot.

I'm no expert on modding, I barely know enough to get by and don't even have a wide assortment of prime or riven mods, but the issue of "required mods" in my personal assessment is that they could just as easily have been baked into another system and only serve circumvent having traditional progression, which isn't a bad thing entirely but can also cause mild irritation and stifle modding creativity.

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, Ephemiel said:

Does it being on Reddit magically make it unable to be here?

What i don't understand is people feeling the need to complain about stupid or simple things rather than just keep scrolling.

You are the same as me.
You just had to complain about my complaint. But atleast I added something to the discussion: What's your excuse? ^^

[Ephemiel]

1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

You are the same as me.
You just had to complain about my complaint. But atleast I added something to the discussion: What's your excuse? ^^

Since when does complaining about a post "add something to the discussion"? Lay off the drugs mate.

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, Ephemiel said:

Since when does complaining about a post "add something to the discussion"? Lay off the drugs mate.

You might want to take another look at my first post in this thread... And read my whole post. I edited before you posted here... So yeah... I added to the discussion. You didn't. Thanks for your time. ^^

[DrBorris]

10 minutes ago, Ephemiel said:

Does it being on Reddit magically make it unable to be here?

What i don't understand is people feeling the need to complain about stupid or simple things rather than just keep scrolling.

At the very least the OP could have copy-pasted the contents of the Reddit post here so we did not have to leave the Forums to even see what they were talking about. This is just as bad as people posting a YouTube video without any additional input.

[so_many_watermelons]

Paying Endo to upgrade the damage of my weapons? No thank you, I collect every weapon I can and am not going to spend hundreds of thousands of Endo I really don't care to farm up to fulfill what I've got already with the 20k endo spent in a single Serration or Hornet Strike and all the rest of that. 

And the moment that thread started saying Steel Fiber is a "required" mod, a large amount of validity went out the window. In fact, even for Redirection and Vitality, there are many different frames that don't need one or the other, sometimes they don't need either. There are alternatives and options to replace the basic health and shield mods depending on the frame and build, the flexibility is already there for Warframes.

 

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

The Focus schools could be a non obvious answer to this problem. I’m currently using zenurik, so it’s easier for me to sacrifice energy mods for something else. I would assume this is true of the other focus schools, that they can Boost one stat to allow you some flexibility in modding.

I kinda like the mod system as is, though. It’s fun to try and figure the best, or at least most appropriate, mod given a limited amount of space. I like the challenge.

[trst]

Getting rid of "mandatory" mods won't fix anything.

Look at any of your builds and consider what you would replace said mods with, you'll find that you end up using the same ones across different types of builds.

These will just be replaced by the minor min-maxing mods you probably wouldn't use normally like Bladed Rounds, Augur Secrets, or just chuck in another elemental mod.

In the end everyone that uses "mandatory" builds just end up with more "mandatory" mods.

 

This isn't an issue with the modding system either; it's just a fact of progression based systems. Every other game with customizable loadout systems remotely like Warframe's have the exact same "issue". Once you reach "end-game" and are building for said end-game the only thing you have is built type variety which we already have. You can choose between crit/status, make nearly any weapon viable through Rivens, and virtually every single frame can be viable for every mission type.

This is just  how end-games work, even if you don't like the game's current "end-game". If you don't like using these builds then downgrade your builds to the ones you want to use and go play the mid-level content instead.

[SordidDreams]

Quote

Basically take the above mods out of the game and instead apply their boosts into every weapon/frame by investing a portion of endo into that item.

So for serration it currently costs 20,460 endo to max serration out. With my change this would divide out the 20,460 endo by the number of current weapons it can be applied to and this value will be the value for all weapons going forward for the bonus. There are currently 98 weapons that this can be applied to (not counting sentinal weapons, and my counting could be off but the point still remains) so 20,460/98 = 208.77 or roughly 209 endo per weapon to get the full affect.

That is a terrible idea that would completely destroy progression as it currently exists and would require rebalancing literally everything in the game.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

6 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

I will never understand people just linking reddit threads.
What do you want from us? Discuss this here in the warframe forum? Do you want us to go to reddit and post in the thread over there?

And what you are bringing up was brought up mutliple times already. The search function is your friend.
If they simply remove mandatory mods from the game, what would happen? Other mods would become mandatory. If people don't have to slot in serration, then they will simply go for the next best thing to maximize DPS. They will go for Reload, Mag Size...
There will always be a meta. This is how gaming works...

This. "A meta exists" is not necessarily a bad thing, or proof that anything is "wrong".

Besides, doing something like making serrations "built in" would just result in whatever shakes out to be the most efficient thing to tack onto it.

[Ephemiel]

6 hours ago, DrBorris said:

At the very least the OP could have copy-pasted the contents of the Reddit post here so we did not have to leave the Forums to even see what they were talking about. This is just as bad as people posting a YouTube video without any additional input.

.....really? It's hard for you to click a damn link?

[Ephemiel]

6 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

You might want to take another look at my first post in this thread... And read my whole post. I edited before you posted here... So yeah... I added to the discussion. You didn't. Thanks for your time. ^^

So you edited AFTER i said that and now you're trying to act tough as if you meant it from the start? 

Come on dude, how pathetic can you get?

[MagPrime]

12 minutes ago, Ephemiel said:

.....really? It's hard for you to click a damn link?

I come to the Forums because I want to read Forum posts, not chase links to other websites, because someone can't share their own thoughts and have to pander someone elses posts.

Mandatory mods are a mindset of the players, change the mind set, change the mods.  We have the Warframes that can synergize and in game communications to allow for strategy and complementary playstyles.  People want "mandatory" mods because it allows them to solo with 3 other people. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by MagPrime

[Umbranoir]

Hi! I like cake. Cake is a great thing to like. The idea on the Reddit-post, not so much.

I totally agree that SOMETHING should be done about the mandatory mods but this sounds like just 'Free up a mod-slot to just fix part of the problem'

E.g: If I currently have a maxed serration and I want to do any reasonable amount of damage, that mod has to be acquired, ranked and placed. Basically that means that a weapon is usually useless without that mod and the resources I have used to rank that mod whereas, the weapon should gain the 10 ranks of serration/hornet-strike in damage increases as you gain 'Mastery' with that weapon. (I mean, It's not like I can't just stick a max-ranked serration on an unranked weapon right away anyways)

I've never viewed Vitality or redirection and certainly not Steel Fiber as 'Mandatory', I'd have no issue if nothing was done about them.

Edit: As for it being a Reddit-Post, Boooooooo! No cake for you people.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Umbranoir

[Fishyflakes]

Adaptation, Arcane Guardian, Magus Nourish/Repair/Elevate are actually the mandatory mods btw.

[0_The_F00l]

All the mods that add to base damage should be removed completely. 

All elemental mods will just fall in line after that. 

Condition overload should be additive instead of multiplicative with status. 

Multishot mods should use ammo from ammo pool (not magazine) for every additional bullet. 

Critical damage mods should be removed too, or taken down to less than half their current value. 

CC will just fall in line after that.

I don't personally have anything against the survivability mods but I have suggested and alternate means to apply the calculations. 

But redirection is bad because how shields in warframe work, if they had a mod equivalent to steel fiber it would increase variety. 

Read more of my thoughts here:

Yeah sure you won't be able to one shot lvl 150 bombards without specific frames. 

But i don't particularly care about extended runs against ludicrous armored opponents anyway. 

 

[Urlan]

Any mods that give base stat increases Vitality, Serration, Vital Sense, etc are what some call "required" or "mandatory" mods. A better term might be progression mods, as they embody the rpg like stat growth or power growth of the warframe or weapons. Stuff like Adaptation, Acolyte mods, and other mods that only do something when you play a certain way are "conditional mods" but could be called "meta mods" if you would prefer because by their nature they push for playing certain ways and reward those styles instead of having progression themselves.

[WhiteMarker]

1 hour ago, Ephemiel said:

So you edited AFTER i said that and now you're trying to act tough as if you meant it from the start? 

Come on dude, how pathetic can you get?

Not quite. I edited BEFORE you made your post. I said that already. You missed the edit.

So what are you trying to pull here? And why are you calling me pathetic? Maybe you want to get your act together. ^^

[DSpite]

not everything in the game needs pure damage output.

When I'm farming for say Argon for example, the build on both the Frame and guns is pure utility. Max detection ranges, max range for anything AoE, or max reach on say, a Lecta whip so I can break containers through walls.

Another common thing against Mid level enemies is to just put the minimum needed to one-shot everything - usually just two elemental mods to get say Blast or Corrosive output, and build the rest as utility to either fast-spam non stop or just have close to unlimited ammo running through everything.

Also, for things like Spy Missions and also Mastery Rank missions, pure damage is mostly pointless, so you build for utility.

I can already hear people saying "but around 90% of the END game needs you to do absurd amounts of damage to kill things", yea, I guess it does, but all "end game" in practically all games I know forces you into very tight pigeon holes in order to do it, and optimal damage at the expense of other things is usually the result.

This game has enough variety and activities that pure damage only becomes an issue at the VERY high end. You can play casually with no Forma and just Catalysts and Reactors - that are given out FREQUENTLY for free - and have fun.

Even at the high end of the game, we all know that even SPECIFIC guns become "mandatory" simply because a lot of guns don't start with high enough Crit or Status to be boosted enough to quickly kill level 100+ Enemies.

If you look hard enough, and pick enemy levels high enough, even specific team class COMPOSITIONS become "mandatory" to make Defense runs for 2 hours, etc etc ...

The open ended nature of Warframe generally means that you actually DONT need to super-optimize all the time just to have fun, that's the great thing about it.

 

[Veridian]

While I'm all in for removing said weapon mods I have two issues:

1. The cost of 200 endo is nothing, newer players will receive a huge spike in damage making the starting experience even more trivial than it already is.

2. Power creep - the one spare slot will just be filled with the next +damage mod, so maybe one of the 8 can be a weapon exilus, with mods like hush fitting.

 

Looking at these points, I think a way for this to work is to remake each of the base damage mods into general upgrades for double the endo and convert 1 slot into exilus. To counteract the bonus slot and capacity that we'd be given.

 

As for the frames, there's more diversity. Given that Vitality is obviously the most used mod, there are still plenty of frames and builds that don't use it.

 

OFC all of this is pure theory we are discussing and will probably never happen.

[Radagosh]

Removing "required mods" will mean DE has to rebalance every single weapon and frame in the game. This alone should give you an idea why it is a stupid idea. But hey that's not all, removing the mods will also most likely go along with removing mod slots, take ability mods for frames as an example. So in the end you'd most likely have the very same builds with 4 modslots instead of 8.

Even if they changed it so this would not occur, us players would again find the best in slot and stop using anything else. Here we can look at drift mods and the exilus slot. Before their introduction we used firewalker, rush and the intended parkour mods. Once we got our hands on the lua mods noone interested in minmaxing was using anything but power or cunning drift.

So in conclusion removing or reworking "required mods" is a worthless effort that won't lead to any real change, but takes insane amounts of work hours out of a schedule that's already plagued by months of content droughts.