Weapon Passives - The Better Way To Balance Guns And Increase Variety

[DreadScourge]

 

There is a lot of complaining about guns like Soma and Acrid and a lot of DE really doing nothing about it, so I introduce the idea of consistent and unique weapon passives.

 

Passives are stat changes that cause something to stand out from others. Weapons like the Acrid and Boltor/Akbolto have special passives that change the tide of battle. Acrid having passive poison damage and Boltor/Akbolto passively ignoring armor. 

 

"But DreadScourge, some weapons already have passives! Uninstall pls!"

 

They sure do, generic commenter, but not nearly enough of them - especially hit-scan weapons.

 

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Let's talk about Soma: it already has a passive - Massively increased crit chance and damage.

 

And the Gorgon? No passive. Why? No reason - so let me give you an example of a good passive for the Gorgon.

 

(they don't have to have names, that's just how I does it)

 

 

Spinning Shells: The internal chamber of the Gorgon spins, causing its shots to drill into armor. The longer the shots are fired at a target, the weaker the target's armor will become.

 

How about the Supra?

 

 

Pulse Discharge(re-balanced): The Supra's energy cells cycle energy with repeated use resulting in increased Multishot the longer the gun is fired in succession. Can scale from 0% to 100%, increases with clip size.

 

How's this for some change to weapons? Instead of weapons being dull and repetitive, (cough Burston and Hind cough) they can each have their own passive ability, setting them apart from each other. You could easily fit a tool tip in the bottom right of the weapon descriptions/arsenal menu that states the passive of the current weapon.

 

Enough if this damned number talk. Each weapon should be unique, and weapon passives is the way to do it.

 

(Come up with some passives for your favorite weapons! I'll list them up here, within reason :P)

 

 

Suggested Passives (edited for balance/diversity)

 

Grakata(dukarriope):

 

 

Concussive Impact: The Grakata's pressure-launched rounds hit targets with such impact that it separates armor plates and reveals vulnerabilities, increasing crit rate for all weapons firing at the target. Chance increases with successive hits from the Grakata.

 

(Snipetron has an armor piercing passive, so let's help out another weapon)

 

Vulkar(KanjiViking):

 

 

Mark of Death: If a target survives the first shot from a Vulkar that hits a weak point, the next shot from the Vulkar that hits the same weak point will deal +100% damage. This can stack up to 5 times. Stacks reset if shot hits a non-vulnerable area or if 5 seconds passes without stack being applied. (great for solo play, provided the assassin is skilled enough) 

 

Burston(XanaSkullpulper):

 

 

Backloaded: The Burston's heated chamber allows each round fired in a burst to be deadlier than the last, dealing +10 damage on the second shot and +20 damage on the third.

 

EDIT: Pictures added!

Edited September 20, 2013 by DreadScourge

[DiabolusUrsus]

I've got no inherent issue with adding better differentiated passive stats, but I think this does more for making the weapons interesting than it does for making them balanced. As I've said elsewhere, the last thing Warframe needs is a tiered weapon system. Just look at the general reaction to Prime versions of existing weapons. Why do I bring this up? Because adding passives like 100% multishot or armor degrading damage to whichever weapons lack passives sounds like a plan ripe with opportunity for making some weapons arbitrarily better than others.

Instead, I'd suggest balancing all existing weapons statistics-wise until they can be more or less grouped into a single tier... and remove mastery rank requirements for using guns. It's an inconsistent and pointless system. Instead, add passives to weapons like you suggested, but sort passives into a sort of skilltree that can be applied to any weapon (separate trees for primaries/secondaries/melee) and tie access to that skilltree in to mastery rank. Give small bonuses. Not anything as ridiculous as a passive 100% multishot, unless something like that would disable the ability to fit that weapon with a multishot mod. This way you get a consistent and definitive benefit to ranking mastery, and that serves as a means of pushing weapons you use into line with other weapons through player-driven customization.

[KanjiViking]

Yes. So much yes. Now this is a good idea imo. Definitely a creative way to spice things up and make old weapons more interesting again (no need to constantly make new ones DE :P). It doesn't even have to balance everything out but some fun passives could surely shake things up again.

How about Ignis: Wildfire: Has a chance for a DoT effect to jump from enemy to enemy.

Or maybe Snipetron: Mark of Death: Targets that survive a shot by the Snipetron are marked, taking increased damage from all sources.

Think of the possibilities, I really like this one. +1 to OP. ^^

Edited September 20, 2013 by KanjiViking

[Kaian-a-coel]

I definitively agree with the idea of weapons' passives. Something that makes them unique.
Some of them already have one, like the orthos: spin attacks does 200% damage.

 

I have some ideas for melee ones:

-Parry-kick (longsmord): parrying melee stagger the attacker. Can only happen every so often.

-Backstab (dagger): stealth attacks (pressing X) does 1000% damage.

-Heavy slam (fraggor): finishing attacks create a shockwave similar to jump attacks, as the wielder slam the ground.

[dukarriope]

I suggested a 'withering effect' for Grakata making it more effective with massed fire, i.e. each bullet that actually lands increases the damage the afflicted target takes for a short while. That would make the Grakata more even effective at short range where its bullets can consistently hit, increasing the stacking of the debuff.

But at this point it doesn't seem like they're really planning to give each weapon unique side-abilities...

[DreadScourge]

Added a couple of you guys' suggestions! Balanced them a bit first :3

[DreadScourge]

 Because adding passives like 100% multishot ... sounds like a plan ripe with opportunity for making some weapons arbitrarily better than others.

Toned it down - added a risk/reward as in more ammo fired, more bonus shots. Thanks for the feedback!

[dukarriope]

Added a couple of you guys' suggestions! Balanced them a bit first :3

you might as well link the . My idea is structured a lot differently from a crit-chance-debuff-thingy, but mk. It's a bit more like your Gorgon idea, but not toying with the armor.

 

Edit: fixed the link

Edited September 20, 2013 by dukarriope

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Hmmm, from a gun collecting standpoint, this sounds awesome. I may as well throw an idea or two in.

 

Burston- Backloaded (ok, not good with naming): The second and third shots in a burst have increased damage (ex- 30/40/50). Thanks to the recoil on it, people already aim low to make the 3rd shot hit a weakspot, and people that put the stablizer mod on it can deal more damage too.

 

MK1-Braton - Support Fire: Enemies being shot at with this weapon are less likely to advance, and more likely to seek cover (maybe in a cone in front of the gun)

 

Bet you can't guess which guns I wish had more attention.

[luxastrum]

Hey!!!!!!! This sounds like an amazing idea! Maybe we could finally pick and choose weapons based on their passives or playstyle and not based on the amount of damage they do end game :/

[DreadScourge]

Burston- Backloaded: The second and third shots in a burst have increased damage (ex- 30/40/50). Thanks to the recoil on it, people already aim low to make the 3rd shot hit a weakspot, and people that put the stablizer mod on it can deal more damage too.

Nice!

[Kaian-a-coel]

Have some more:

 

-Vasto (single): Grudge: the last bullet in the magazine deals increased damage, provided it hit an enemy who damaged you and you damaged it already.

 

-Fist weapons (any): FALCON PAWNCH (placeholder name): critical(?) charge attacks ragdoll the enemy, dealing damage to the ones it hit (like with arrows).

 

(rewording a previous idea):

-longsword (it was always intended to be longsword, like skana. I derped and put greatsword): Counter: stagger. Parrying melee attacks have a chance to stagger the attacker.

(I'd like to see longswords with a series of parry-related passives)

[ForumSmurf]

Kewl somone who read my mind. here are my weapon passives.

 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/96511-spirit-of-the-prime-weapon-balance/

[Kaian-a-coel]

read that. But yours isnt the same spirit. You have a huge list of "does +2% damage" as far as the eye can see. To that I say no. We want FUN things. Significant things. Abilities. Not straight up numbers. It's an admirable effort, bu it has no flavor.

 

Furthermore, I see there abilities based on "how much prime weapon do you have" or the mastery rank.

You need to reach rank 30 PLUS do 500 more kills just to unlock the passive, and you have to get to MR 10 before you get something more significative than +3% reload speed.

 

It's not fun. Just not fun.

 

Unless you are MR10 with ALL THE WEAPONS, in which case we can see some really broken stuff. Like Bronco prime with +180% reload speed, or an orthos prime with +180% damage and +90% attack speed, without any mods.

 

There is little point in indexing your weapon's power on how many weapons you have. You'd have to level OTHERS weapons to make your favourite more powerful. Logic?

 

Oh, and that would make it P2W as well, as people unable to buy slots will have trouble to match the power of people with lots of them, notably for primes but also because that makes leveling MR a PITA.

 

Compare with ours which is ALWAYS here, like the Orthos 200% damage slide is always here. Like the Acrid poison damage is always here. Like the bows pin-your-ennemies-to-the-wall-passive is always here.

Some weapons already have passives, and that's the kind of passive we want to see enhanced and spread.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Kaian-a-coel

[ForumSmurf]

Unless you are MR10 with ALL THE WEAPONS, in which case we can see some really broken stuff. Like Bronco prime with +180% reload speed, or an orthos prime with +180% damage and +90% attack speed, without any mods.

 

 

This can't happen because the bonus' for these two weapons only counts the same type. For bronco only other secondary primes. For orthos only other melee primes. 

[LazyKnight]

I am all for interesting weapons that have passive perks. Supra needs something to make it more than a lightshow. Giving it a passive effect cc or innate puncture would be useful in making it a spray and pray min-gun. I am not sure if it would be a good idea to give every weapon perks, but the high end clan weapon definitely need a characteristic beyond pure damage inflation.

Edited September 20, 2013 by LazyKnight

[dukarriope]

Ugh, bugger, somehow the link in my earlier post failed, so here.

[DreadScourge]

Ugh, bugger, somehow the link in my earlier post failed, so here.

It's a great idea, I just feel it's similar to the effect the Acrid has.

[DreadScourge]

Kewl somone who read my mind. here are my weapon passives.

 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/96511-spirit-of-the-prime-weapon-balance/

Nice, though I don't think ours are similar at all, no offense!

[dukarriope]

Here's one for the much maligned Sicarus I guess. It's not very imaginative, though.

 

Third Bullet Lucky

The third bullet of the Sicarus has a 350% higher critical chance (45%) with a 50% higher multiplier (225%), and a significantly higher stun chance.
 

 

With a full Pistol Gambit and Target Cracker, that brings the total stats for the third bullet to a 3.6x multiplier with a chance of 99%.

[Kaian-a-coel]

what about Third one's the charm?

[WARGAMES]

I LIKE THIS, simply because similar weapons would NOT be the same then!  this is the heart of variety if weapons have similar stats but nothing else.

[WARGAMES]

I've got no inherent issue with adding better differentiated passive stats, but I think this does more for making the weapons interesting than it does for making them balanced. As I've said elsewhere, the last thing Warframe needs is a tiered weapon system. Just look at the general reaction to Prime versions of existing weapons. Why do I bring this up? Because adding passives like 100% multishot or armor degrading damage to whichever weapons lack passives sounds like a plan ripe with opportunity for making some weapons arbitrarily better than others.

Instead, I'd suggest balancing all existing weapons statistics-wise until they can be more or less grouped into a single tier... and remove mastery rank requirements for using guns. It's an inconsistent and pointless system. Instead, add passives to weapons like you suggested, but sort passives into a sort of skilltree that can be applied to any weapon (separate trees for primaries/secondaries/melee) and tie access to that skilltree in to mastery rank. Give small bonuses. Not anything as ridiculous as a passive 100% multishot, unless something like that would disable the ability to fit that weapon with a multishot mod. This way you get a consistent and definitive benefit to ranking mastery, and that serves as a means of pushing weapons you use into line with other weapons through player-driven customization.

and I like your's as well, largely because this is closer to a balanced state and allow variety.  perhaps the passives could be different for some weapons to give them additional balance.

 

let's say between the akboltos and twin gremlins.

akboltos could have:

drunk dart board: same area repeatedly deals bonus damage  scaling 5% up to a maximum of 50%.

 

twin gremlins could have:

angry grineer handyman: the closer you are to a target, increased crit chance from 0-100% and puncture from 0.1m-1.0m, at a distance from 35m and scaling down to 10m

 

of course more than that but, just adding to it.