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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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Posted (edited)

Can we see the numbers on the abilities and what stats will be affected by what? And what is the point of this Warframe going to be/intended to be. 

1 seems outclassed by other clones, mirages and Excalibur umbra. Cool, but usefulness would require insane scaling with strength which seems unlikely.

2 seems to be a much higher maintenance version of ivaras 3.

3 seems neat but we need numbers to determine if it was worth losing never die mode, as it was the only reason to play the Warframe in semi tough content. In addition to the other two abilities not being very useful or good. 

4 not as fun or effective as other exalteds or melees in general.

Passive seems like alot of fun and a good way to compensate for loss of perma die, but much like the 1, not enough to carry this warframe.

 

I would love to see cloud buffs. In the form of literal buffs given if you say, jump up through the clouds, or charged by duration in cloud. Definitely get rid of the augment and make that built in, maybe make the augment recasting the ability gives each person in the cloud their own cloud and speed boost. 

Edited by BrenBlaze
Forgot the augment for clouds wasn't built in.

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3 minutes ago, Orokin said:

Well there already exists saryn's molt which has an invulnerability period that absorbs damage and adds that to its health. So it is technically already outclassed as you say. You should argue that loki's decoy should be buffed not argue that wukong's 1 should be as useless as loki's.

Exactly what I would like, GMTA.

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2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Time to be blunt. This is a trash move to sneakily increase your sales for the next prime access. Skipping vauban and chroma so that you can work on wukong to me means chroma and vauban won't get their rework if we support wukong sales. If we buy prime access, then you succeeded, and so you'd surely repeat this act. Chroma and vauban prime access has already passed, so to you, there is less business value, and I understand that. That is why I personally won't buy prime access anymore. Not until the fairness train comes back.

 

Also limbo rework still sucks. Don't overthink this and just make rift not affect ally attacks. I doesnt matter if enemy or warframe is in opposite side of rift. If it prevents damage, its bad design. I mean warframe abilities work this way, why not weapons? 

Vauban is still getting a rework, these things just take time.

Chroma's problem and why he's always been relatively low in priority basically boils down to a simple fact-Chroma doesn't underperform. In fact, he's a ridiculously powerful Warframe who can easily triple the damage of the weapons he's using while achieving ludicrous levels of survivability with relatively little need for support, and the fact that his primary powers are self/team buffs rather than enemy debuffs means that his powers basically work all the time, because there are almost no enemies who can strip buffs but aren't invulnerable to damaging powers.

So he's in a good place in terms of effectiveness (unlike Wukong) since Ward and Vex Armor are just that good, but he also happens to have two powers which are complete trash and not worth investing in.

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Welp looks like I am gonna start crafting that monkey now. It’s been sitting in my foundry for a year..

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Hmm... I don't think I can give any real verdict without being able to test it. But I would LOVE to see some Enveloping Cloud changes. 

It really just overall needs love. The stealth breaks for party members if they do almost anything, so please, please make it a better version of stealth. As it is, its nearly useless (though I must say, the changes to Cloud walker have highly increased its usability already)

But still, please, PLEASE, take a look at the mod? It could SO helpful as a team mod if it let them kill enemies and stay stealthed. You could even reduce the duration to match Ash's augment duration. 

On a small note... maybe increase the range? As it is now it either has to rely on team members going out of their way, stopping gameplay, just to get the buff. Again, the Cloud Walker changes have severly helped this already, but it'd be nice if you could keep it in mind? 

 

Anyways, thanks!

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Just a small thing... could you make the clones damage have a multiplier based on the Combo multiplier that Wukong currently has? That would be a neat scaling mechanic, and would incentivize synergy with melee or his 4

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1 minute ago, MJ12 said:

Vauban is still getting a rework, these things just take time.

Chroma's problem and why he's always been relatively low in priority basically boils down to a simple fact-Chroma doesn't underperform. In fact, he's a ridiculously powerful Warframe who can easily triple the damage of the weapons he's using while achieving ludicrous levels of survivability with relatively little need for support, and the fact that his primary powers are self/team buffs rather than enemy debuffs means that his powers basically work all the time, because there are almost no enemies who can strip buffs but aren't invulnerable to damaging powers.

So he's in a good place in terms of effectiveness (unlike Wukong) since Ward and Vex Armor are just that good, but he also happens to have two powers which are complete trash and not worth investing in.

I hope vauban is in progress. But Chroma's rework in my mind is something for his 1 and 4, which as they stand now are literal gimmicks with no uses or synergies. I also disagree with the damage buff that Chroma provides, because instead of a multiplier like rhino's its mod damage, like mirage (which I also disagree with). This is because to fully benefit, I have to mod my weapons WITHOUT damage mods and replace with something else, like a cold elemental, since increasing stats is proportional, 165-220% versus 1100% is nothing, compared to a 90% elemental that scales off that 1100% damage. This also makes people buy rubico rivens WITHOUT damage, which is a bias that affects the market as well. Long story short, they should scale it as bonus (final damage) not mod damage.

As for vauban, everything he has is basically a gimmick in this era of warframe. It would be cool if they make him a status themed warframe, and stoppped making enemies immune to status. And they wonder why crit is king...

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4 hours ago, Giantconch said:

This looks pretty solid actualy. I'd comment on the changes before they go in but that doesnt seem like a wise move. I'll wait until after the changes drop to give feedback and hopefully needed tweaks can be made then.

 

*edit*

 

Defy in its current form is a broken 1-trick-pony ability. Cloudwalker is a joke currently, iron jab is essentially useless, his 4 is also a mobile meme. Though he will no longer have defy, having a clone with boosted damage you can send after a target, a better cloudwalker that could actually be useful in spy missions that doesnt feel like a glaciar receeding, and a potentially better version of primal fury which doesnt take a few hundred kills to actually start working like an exalted weapon should be a good improvement.

 

His passive sounds a lot like Defy currently but not an infinite unkillable state. To those saying he's ruined as a result of no longer having Defy, like, do you even Inaros bro? If you crutched Wukong on Defy when the going got tough then I hate to say it, but its time to git gud. ...I feel dirty saying that.

Might be better to compare to Valkyr or any warframe that specializes in invisibility.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But even so, it is a massive light stick, so shouldnt it really have the same potential to inflict slash damage as War, which also has no actual cutting edges and relies on pure energy? Also it wouldnt be the first staff without actual blades to have the possibility to inflict slash damage, we already have amphis and broken scepter.

So because we've established a tradition of applying damage types to weapons that really shouldn't have them...we should continue to do so? That's a terrible argument / justification.

Amphis should never have been able to inflict Slash and Puncture to begin with. Impact and Electrical at the very least. Broken Scepter I can see having a tiny bit of Slash and Puncture due to that bit at the end, but the scepter is very much a blunt trauma weapon. War I can see being an Impact / Heat weapon at the very least. The problem is the nature of the energy field and if it allows for projecting a sharp edge that would allow for cutting / punching through armor.

Anyway - this is straying from the topic on-hand. Wukong's staff should be Impact damage only but be allowed to inflict a Bleed proc....assuming it's purely a staff. That being said, doesn't Wukong's lore suggest that it was capable of changing form and not just size? If so, It would be interesting if players could toggle the damage type and in doing so change the staff's physical appearance.

 

Edited by MirageKnight

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Volaren said:

1.1k hours in Warframe

Steam hours don't count. :tongue:

17 minutes ago, Volaren said:

I'd be okay with a drain increase if the range was really, really good. Maybe not that gif good (you know which one I'm talking about, the one that all Wukong players dream about), but definitely better than standard melee weapons.

Based on what they said about it being the length of a long Zaw, it should be good. Those hit up to 10m or so IIRC with Primed Reach, which is a huge upgrade to the 4m the staff currently hits.

1 minute ago, MirageKnight said:

That being said, doesn't Wukong's lore suggest that it was capable of changing form and not just size

He could also duplicate it.

Edited by DeMonkey
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.

This needs a really significant multiplier, like at least 6000%. Hopefully the amalgam javlok mod has been instructive here.

5 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.

These are all pretty fun, but at max stacks Nidus has 6 extra lives that he can easily refresh over the course of a mission. So I hope there's a way to refresh this passive.

EDIT: Since you compared the immortality meter to Baruuk's restraint meter, why not have it increase off his other abilities in a similar way? Simple suggestion: Enemies stunned by cloud walker, damage inflicted by defy, and kills scored with Primal Fury all contribute towards filling up the immortality meter and earning Wukong another death defiance.

Edited by atejas
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

He could also duplicate it.

Dual-wielding staffs as a possible combo / finisher move?

Yes please!

Edited by MirageKnight
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Personally I think cloud Walker should be replaced with an ability that allows wukong to transform into a handful of animals that each play differently (his 72 transformations) such as a tiger, leopard, rhino, wolf, panda and eagle.

Personally think it would be a way cooler ability than cloud Walker 

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i m glad i have a hydrin who can abuse immortality since wukong have only 1 great thing over other warframe and this thing gonna be nerfed to the ground

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5 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.

  1. Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
  2. Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
  3. Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
  4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
  5. Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds

 

I can see people going to Kuva and dying just before the last one finishes to try to get Monkey Luck.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Dual-wielding staffs as a possible combo / finisher move?

Yes please!

Think bigger, think tri-wielding.

"Before long he found that the pressure was too great from the sabres, spears, swords, halberds, clubs, maces, claws−and−ropes, hammer, pole−axes, battle−axes, grabs, pennoned hooks, and moon−shaped bills of the thunder generals; so he shook himself and grew three heads and six arms. Then he shook his As−You−Will cudgel and changed it into three cudgels, and wielding the three cudgels in his six hands he flew round and round inside the encirclement like a spinning wheel."

-Excerpt from Journey to the West.

Edited by DeMonkey
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1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

This rework looks good enough for me to want to actually give Wukong a try...but I find it rather curious that DE hasn't considered giving him the ability to summon circles of protection to make him more team friendly.

You're missing one key aspect of teamplay here. Far as I know with this rework Wukong will be the only frame able to draw aggro. It's quite equivalent of making the rest of the party invincible during that period, and since he is too then damage becomes non-existent during that period.

Of course, depending on numbers of range and duration, ofc.

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1 minute ago, Julian_Skies said:

Far as I know with this rework Wukong will be the only frame able to draw aggro.

Absorb also draws aggro. Actually, plenty of frames have abilities that draw aggro (Molt, Decoy, Shield of Shadows) just not to the frame itself usually.

 

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Looking forward to trying it out. Looks like a good update, actually looks like an improvement unlike the Limbo changes...

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35 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Based on what they said about it being the length of a long Zaw, it should be good. Those hit up to 10m or so IIRC with Primed Reach, which is a huge upgrade to the 4m the staff currently hits.

It'll be a huge upgrade, but it'd be nice to have a reason to use it over a Zaw, which is the same issue that live Wukong 4 has: why would you use Wukong's 4, which drains energy, when you can just use a normal melee weapon and be more effective? With Excal, you have a ton of damage and awesome range. With Valkyr, you're invulnerable. You have incentive. With Wukong, if the range is the same as a Zaw, yes, it's a great upgrade to the current terrible range, but it doesn't fix the underlying issue that plagues Wukong's 4, which is that the only reason you use it is for flavor. It does nothing better than a Zaw like the other Exalted melees, so it's a bad option.

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1 minute ago, Volaren said:

It'll be a huge upgrade, but it'd be nice to have a reason to use it over a Zaw, which is the same issue that live Wukong 4 has: why would you use Wukong's 4, which drains energy, when you can just use a normal melee weapon and be more effective? With Excal, you have a ton of damage and awesome range. With Valkyr, you're invulnerable. You have incentive. With Wukong, if the range is the same as a Zaw, yes, it's a great upgrade to the current terrible range, but it doesn't fix the underlying issue that plagues Wukong's 4, which is that the only reason you use it is for flavor. It does nothing better than a Zaw like the other Exalted melees, so it's a bad option.

Wait and see what happens with the new combos.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Julian_Skies said:

able to draw aggro. It's quite equivalent of making the rest of the party invincible during that period, and since he is too then damage becomes non-existent during that period.

This is basically only if the group's bunkered up in a dead-end.
Otherwise, you have enemies coming at you from all directions, and distance changes aggro priority.

 

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Wait and see what happens with the new combos.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not sure if you're referring to the combos being in the new style, or to the combos themselves being the incentive.

I'd be surprised and impressed if they manage the latter, and the former is only incentive until Melee 3.0 is applied globally, so :/

Edited by Chroia
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The rework looks pretty nice so far, however i have some concerns about some aspects of his first 3 abilities. 

Celestial twin: I feel that there could be a problem having the ai constantly trying to do the opposite of what you're doing, especially for players who swap from shooting to melee extremely often. The ai could potentially be battling himself more than the enemies with trying to keep up with the player by constantly swapping and going in and out of melee range. I think this can be pretty easily fixed though by making it to where once the celestial twin swaps to either a gun or melee he'll be forced to use it for a minimum of like 3 or so sec.

Defy: So first thing i noticed is that it seems to lock you in an animation which could potentially be a problem with how active warframe is, however i dont think this is that big of a deal. Second thing is that damage from enemies  redirected back to them has never really been shown to work well because enemies aren't very good at killing enemies as their ehp values far outweigh their damage. So i think maybe giving the damage from defy a value, giving it a multiplier when you get damaged, and having it be affected by mods on your staff would be a good way to make this ability useful in all sorts of content.

Cloud walker: overall i think the changes to this ability are really nice, but i would like to still see a reason to use it even if my hp value isnt low. So maybe in addition to the healing it could keep the crit buff that was talked about on one of the devstreams or maybe just some other little buff.

Hopefully this helps

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