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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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I'm really liking a lot of these changes, especially if Cloud Walker heals him. A thought, could his Cloud Walker augment also extend that healing to allies?

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This rework looks very bleak for Wukong mains. 

That passive is still an improvement over his current one but not by much cause of the rng aspect. 

Eh whatever. This frame will never be good enough to feel like Sun Wukong's mechanical incarnation. 

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passive is horrible

maybe it is my misunderstanding. please take a look

 

You may think player will need those buffs when they are facing the strong enemies that give Wukong fatal damage

but the truth is depends on the strength of buffs

if the buff is worth to use, players will kill themselves to get buffs instantly.(i think this is not DE want to see

if the buff is not worth to use, players will not even look at it.(that means the rework on passive is failed 

 

btw the duration/times of buff is quite a problem

e.g. even you give a AOE whole map clean buff for a single time in a mission. 

e.g. even 9999999999% damage for 5 seconds in a mission

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Defy is not a fire-and-forget case, if you are in any danger to begin with. Resetting it safely is key, which is why keeping tabs on how often you've defied death an important gameplay consideration when using rolling guard, which was a good option to allow you more safety when resetting in the middle of clusterf*ck of ancients for example.

 

Sadly I still hold my foot to the ground on defy needing to remain as is. I approve of mostly everything else.

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please do not touch the Wukong.  he is beautiful as it is now

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9 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Why do you guys always revert to this excuse when we have so many other game breaking abilities that fall into the same category?

Also, that passive is trash lol. Worse than before.
 

*cough cough* saryn spores, vauban in his entirety, baruuk 1, ember, frost, RHINO *cough cough*

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Some feedback on the changes:

First of all this is miles better then what was shown on the devstream, its a good start.

Statistics changes: all good, except a bit more sprint speed please, so he can be agile. I would give more base armor as well to combo with the passive i propose.

Celestial Twin: I am actually surprised here, i hated the clones idea but this is good. One thing to note though, PLEASE make him use the same weapon you have equiped at all times, if i am shooting an enemy its because its far away i dont want to kill everything while the clone runs to the enemy to smack it, on the other hand if i am in the middle of the fight meleeing i want him with me fighting as well, and not somewhere offscreen shooting.

Cloud Walker: By adding the healing you have given me a reason to use this skill. All changes are great and animation seems very fast. I will free my healing arcanes on operator and use this instead. Perfect, gives me variety on build. Healing needs to be on par though, i dont want to regenerate 40hp a sec while on cloud, and sit there for 20s to heal. Around 100hp/s should be good. If the healing is subpar there is no reason to use this skill still, mobility is better without it and invulnerability is also easily achivable without it.

Defy: This is one of my unpleasent surprises, i always wanted old defy gone and still do, but this i do not like. Taunting is good,  invulnerability on a timer is good, lowered mobility is HORRIBLE, and finally armor buff depending on dmg absorbed is HORRENDOUS. You will need to find a group of enemies your team have not killed or enough enemies to make yourself tanky. Too few enemies? Your team is killing everything? This is a horrible mechanic to get armor. Depending on the timer this will give me nightmares to keep. I will not comment on stored dmg thrown back at enemies, we all know how that works.

Primal Fury: Seems good, more range, better combos and status chance is good. Dont need to use that crap set to make it viable. Slash on a stick? Ok i guess

Passive: This is horrible. Better then 2s combo duration? Yes. Having to die to get the buffs? Not good. This seems just like giving me extra revives without clicking the revive button and slapping me a boon for sucking at the game.

Give me a a passive to make wukong more tanky, as in every death prevent you gain %bonus armor, so the more you fail the tankier you get, so you have no incentive to die and if you make a mistake you come back a bit tankier. Everytime you cheat death you come back stronger to prove you can survive. Up to a point, no immortality, this way it makes sense to build armor on him and use armor arcanes as they would get multiplies everytime you cheat death. 

Augments: primal fury augment seems still like a mandatory inclusion on any serious build, which leaves little room for other shennanigans and variety which i think augments should bring. I would rather you add those effects to the base skill and make the augment something fun and with no power creep. 

Closing comments: Suprisingly satisfied with the changes so far. Would love to see the passive i proposed with some more base armor instead of having to taunt certain ammount of enemies for armor. This already seems like a fun frame to play.

cheers

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1 does his clone stack primal flurry 2 idea: Enveloping Cloud could heal others in range and lowers accuracy of enemies 3 i dont partially like how is passive works, first rng (maybe link to energy color) and 3 limit. suggestion: maybe make it kinda like nidus passive in the way lose stacks to revive put a thresh hold and heals = to something like combo counter 

overall i like the changes 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

No it didn't, it never has. This is misinformation plain and simple.

You wot mate, unless the change was made a since the swap to separate mods ( I can't remember if that changed it or not its, been a hot take since I used to Wukong because he made everytging trivial) otherwise I can guarantee that warframe range effects exalted weapon range on him when I haul my ass out of bed in a moment. 

Edited by Ekijonon

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Posted (edited)

Welcome to the forums @[DE]SpaceySarah,

I am overall liking the directions of the rework but some concerns. 

Clone: The clone is still going to follow specter AI I assume, and Specters is warframe are rather... On the lower end of the useful spectrum. 

Also what happens when I only have melee or ranged weapons? Does the clone start going drunken monkey fist on the enemies? (that would be hilarious) 

Defy will be an assimilate Nyx? With armor buff instead or damage buff? Not that I mind a re use of mechanics, but the reflect damage is not gonna be doing much, unless you turn it into a very specific element with high status chance that also covers a larger area. (AoE gas damage maybe? Hilarious and Apt and suitable, his orifices will actually have a reason now, and cause enemies to choke for a few seconds) 

Will also need to have a significant armor buff, comparable to chroma or being multiplicative to final armor and not additive. 

Cloud walker seems simply better than what it was, don't really see any problems. Maybe extend the healing to squad with the augment? 

Primal fury seems to be better, but since it's prototype for melee stance rework I am going to reserve judgment until I actually use it. 

 

The passives are interesting, but it's basically 3 arcane auto revives that they trigger on death? Does it reset in a mission or is it 3 and done? Will need more info. on how the passive will work. 

Do they really require set after a counter? Like Phoenix renewal? 

Is it the same 3 in an active mission?

What happens when you are finally downed?

What happens if you are revived by allies? 

What happens if you actually die? 

What about other revive abilities like Phoenix renewal? How do they pair? 

 

Will be able to add if there were numbers to be considered. 

Edited by 0_The_F00l
Passives query
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7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Those hit up to 10m or so IIRC with Primed Reach

Keep in mind that primed reach is getting a huge nerf will melee 3.0 to provide a flat range boost rather than the current scaler increase.

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Everything looks good

but i would like to give some feedback on the passive 

I feel like if it worked like oberons 3rd ability augments, it would be much better then just having 3 defys 

so u actually have to work for the buffs 

but we haven’t test it so this is just, assumed 

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bring back defy that was the whole point of wukong

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-06-13 at 12:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Calling all Tenno and Wukong lovers!

Released in 2015, Wukong entered the Arsenal as an homage to Chinese folklore. Since his initial inception, we’ve undergone changes to Melee and beyond which have made this Warframe feel a bit left behind. As highlighted in our latest Devstream, exciting developments are in the works for Wukong - and we are not monkeying around. Read on to see how we plan on making all his abilities a bit more active and meaningful:


Statistic Changes

  • Health will be increased from 100 to 150 (at max rank increased from 300 to 450).
  • Shield will be decreased from 125 to 100 (at max rank decreased from 375 to 300).
    • Why? Since Wukong’s new kit now involves an armour buff, relying more on his health will enable a better synergy.
  • Energy will be increased from 100 to 120 (at max rank 150 to 180).
  • Sprint will be increased from .95 to 1.0.


Celestial Twin

  • Replacing Iron Jab, Celestial Twin will allow for Wukong to shed a part of himself to call a supporting clone into action. The clone will attack from range while Wukong uses melee, or will use melee while Wukong uses range.
  • Press ability again to command Wukong’s clone to attack a specific target with increased damage.
  • Wukong’s clone will remain until it runs out of life.


Cloud Walker

  • Wukong evaporates into a fast-moving cloud of mist that will temporarily daze and paralyze enemies in his path. While in his cloud of mist, Cloud Walker has the additional mechanic of healing Wukong and his clone.
  • His movement can be interrupted by attacking at any time.
  • Cloud Walker has a much faster cast time which will no longer hold Wukong in place.
  • Wukong will no longer trigger laser traps or doors while using Cloud Walker.
  • Energy cost for Cloud Walker has been lowered.


Defy

  • Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.
  • Based on the amount of damage prevented by Defy, Wukong and his clone will receive a temporary armour buff.
  • Press ability again to trigger spin early.


Primal Fury

  • Primal Fury will feature a new specialized and streamlined combo for Wukong’s legendary Iron Staff. As a preview of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system, Wukong’s Primal Fury uses new combo routes with simplified inputs providing a safe, limited space to try out coming releases.
  • Damage for Wukong and his clone is redistributed for a more powerful feel, with a much higher status chance, larger base range, and some slash.
  • Casting no longer holds Wukong in place. With new energy requirements, the cast cost of Primal Fury was lowered but cast drain was increased to be turned off and on as desired.
  • Animation has been trimmed.
  • The range of Wukong’s Iron Staff is always long, comparable to top range Zaws, and no longer needs to build combo to scale range.


Passive

  • 5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.
    1. Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
    2. Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
    3. Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
    4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
    5. Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds


Augments

  • Celestial Twin Augment: Replacing Iron Vault, Wukong will command his clone to perform a wide radius slam, suspending enemies.
  • Enveloping Cloud: No planned changes.
  • Primal Rage: Increased cap from 100 to 150%, increased bonus per kill from 10% to 15%. Drain now scales with duration, so the higher Wukong’s duration, the slower it drains, and when Wukong gets a kill the drain stops for 5 seconds.

 

Constructive Feedback and thoughts:

Statistic Changes - perfectly reasonable to me.

Celestial Twin - again perfect (tho it is replacing a iron jab so anything is fine at this point) just a few concerns how will it scale on endless missions. will it get one shot on higher lvl's? will the clone prioritizes the closest enemy to you or to it? increasing the aggro of whoever is holding the melee weapon should help alleviate it a bit. 

Cloud Walker -  will he be considered invisible the whole time? i like that it will heal you and your clone good synergy

Defy - .... don't have anything constructive just gripes about this one.... just sounds like NYX'S absorb with an armor buff. please give him something like MAG'S MAGNETIZE field and a big increase to aggro.

Primal Fury - lots of good changes and one bad. Adding slash damage to a staff makes no sens but i understand why (slash being the best damage type by far) . being able to install Exodia Arcanes to iron staff would help offset this and make it more fun to use. (i know doing this will open a can of worms but its worth it)  the one bad thing is the cast drain increased. wokong no longer has a way to regain energy reliably with the defy rework (Rage is out the window). energy pads don't work while its active. and a request please synchronize his attacks with his clone like this. Example:

tenor.gif?itemid=1407673733fqyb.gif

 

Passive - 5 LVL of immortality. way better than the original passive but as a substitute/bandage for original defy way worse with only 3 uses (and the 5 bonuses doesn't help especially when they are random). there should be a way to earn more like NIDUS. (example if you get X amount of armor  from Defy  you get a revive. you need work for it) 

Edited by (PS4)Omega_Zero_
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3 forma ... ok I guess

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as soon as I heard about the rework on the devstream I was scared this would happen. Wukong is (was) my favorite frame, but the changes to his 2 and his passive are just unacceptable... in a mob looter shooter like warframe, defy working like harrow's 4 is strictly a nerf to the only thing giving wukong any usecases in the game, unless that armor buff is RIDICULOUS even by umbral chroma standards, and reducing his movement speed during it is just a kick in the pants to me. Yes, defy was a hit it and forget it ability, but it was not in any way "god mode" because being invincible in this game, as it turns out, is not only something most other frames can do well enough, as well as wukong ,or better than wukong, but it's also a minor thing in comparison to the player's real goals of finishing a mission quickly and efficiently, and that's why I loved wukong. If I may offer a suggestion for defy, just give it some recastability, that's all it needs and that's all it ever needed. In fact keeping it the way it is, but recasting it unleashes all the captured damage like this workshop already describes would be a perfect way to keep the ability active without destroying the one thing that makes wukong not the worst frame in the game. Doesnt need a limited duration, doesnt need a movement speed nerf, just give it the ability to be recast to reflect absorbed enemy damage and you've got yourself a watered down version of equinox's 4 with plenty of utility and still acts as the backbone of wukong's kit and gaining an active reason to pay attention to the ability.

As for the passive... it's just too much. Replacing the current passive is fine, but this new one is just an even less active version of the current version of defy, effectively giving you 3 extra revives, which is appealing to newer players who may find value in staying alive more easily, but for anyone who's built a rhino and gotten his augments, dying is really an afterthought when your goal is looting and shooting to get to the end of the mission, the buffs being randomly selected out of 5 in order to be able to use 3 in a mission is also just not consistent with warframe's gameplay loop. Cosmic armor is a slightly better version of current defy but only for 60 seconds, primal forces is super weapon dependant, and I think the last thing anyone wants is to have to rely on an elemental weapon because of the frame they bring when they'd prefer to bring a dread or whatever. It does synergize with wukong's 4 just fine, and judging from the general buffs to his 4, is fine, but still there's only a small chance you'll get this buff and an even smaller chance you'll die at all, not to mention it still only lasts 60 seconds which is not a lot of time for most missions. Heavenly cloak is totally worthless considering wukong's 3 is now gonna be able to bypass any stealth checks in missions like lasers etc. If you're at a point that you're dying to the enemies around you, 30 seconds of increased stealth damage is not likely to fix that problem for you unless you use the buff specifically to get to the end of the mission, and how could you effectively time your own death, count on getting this buff, then use it to leave when you could just use your 3? Monkey Luck is weird because in theory a little loot buff is good but you're really giving players incentive to stop attacking and stop playing the game, and also have them attempt to do so with planned timing in order to be able to get more loot from something other players are gonna kill, and while when this buff appears, people will use it, I dont think it really makes sense to reward players for dying so much when dying is such an uncommon thing if you're equipped well enough for the missions that you're doing. Sly alchemy is another one that sounds like it's appealing to super low-level new players who havent gotten zenurik bubbles, built energy pizzas, asked a trinity to join their team, gotten arcane energize, or any other number of ways to quickly gain energy or health, and so high level players getting this buff are gonna be mad they didnt get the loot one or cosmic armor. Really the best way to fix all of this is to get rid of any buffs entirely, or else just keep cosmic armor, because its the only one that doesnt "reward" players for dying so much as help them get back on their feet after they die so they dont lose their revives in one minute flat. Adding 3 free revives while healing wukong up to half health is fine though, its just the RNG of what buffs youll get that really seems like incentivising bad play to me.

Other than the passive and the defy nerfs that I really can't stand, his 1, 3, and 4 will probably be just fine, depending on the numbers. I really hope wukong's clone isn't weaker in terms of stats or weapon damage, and that shouldnt scale with power strength or anything either. It should just be a flat clone of wukong, mods and all, with the same weapons with the same stats, mods and all, because that would be a very good, very useful, very powerful ability, but definitely not overpowered or passive by any means. I hope that his 3 is really fast (the gif you guys put in the workshop preview didnt show it moving at all) and I hope that the healing to wukong and his clone is reasonably fast, even if it has to scale with power strength, there'll be no problem with that, and the base range of wukong's 4 being buffed up to zaw level is awesome, base damage buffs are fine, but really it comes down to the specific numbers whether or not i'll ever use it over my actual melee weapon. The primal rage augment buff seems minimal when what it needs to be good is for the ability to have a lot more base crit chance. If it can surpass (or even come up to) 100% crit chance, the augment will be super useful on wukong, and the ability will be useful too. 

long story short, please consider doing significantly less to defy, and please consider doing significantly less with the passive, other than that, if executed properly, this rework can be great and put Wukong up a couple tiers.

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Really hyped for this rework.

Wukong is a frame that is way to bland in my opinion as you basically only use your 2 and maybe your 4.

With this i think people can be more experimental with wukong and come up with new ways to play him.

Also his 1 works like duality for equinox i think and if you know how op that is well.....

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My primary issues with this rework are;

Will the clone be aggressive and effective enough in combat to be worth bringing out? Will it hold aggro at all? More importantly; since how long it stays around will be dependant on its health,will it gain the now-customary '3 seconds of invulnerability' Rhino's Iron Skin and Frost's Bubble have?

Just as importantly, there is the question of Wukong's passive. From what you show, it'll have 3 charges per mission, and that's it. However, Nidus' passive, which does pretty much the same thing, has potentially infinite charges. So long as you can recharge his stacks, you can keep reviving yourself without issue. Yet Wukong only gets 3 shots at this? Ther should definitely be a way to restore the passive's charges. Is it going to be a timed thing (each charge recovers after minutes?), is it going to be an achievement thing (deal X amount of damage/gain Y amount of Affinity?), I don't know. But the way it's shown right now, it seems really, really underwhelming. Oberon's old passive level of underwhelming.

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I'll keep it short since almost everything I wanted to say has already been said. I've been a Wukong main, did Second Dream with him, loved him to death and I'm not gonna touch him after the pointless nerf to Defy.

Lately it feels like every Frame needs to have 50 different mechanics and over-complicated combos for some reason. UI getting cluttered with new "artsy" metres and gauges for different mechanics, 3-4 rotating options to every skill... Wukong was nice and simple to use. Fun Frame. Now it won't be. I'm just glad I've got Revenant to keep me company and no. I'm not using it's overcomplicated combos the way you want me to DE.

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Posted (edited)

Looks relatively good to me.  Infinite duration clone, Cloud Walker taking the place of Defy for the purposes of health restoration and immortality while also getting improved stealth applications, Defy being a damage reflection (hopefully amplifying the absorbed damage because enemy health scales much faster than enemy damage)/durability buff (I'd rather it be DR rather than armor just because enemy slash procs are a thing, but it sounds nice all the same), and Primal Fury getting a higher drain in exchange for a lower activation cost sound good, so long as the higher drain isn't significantly higher (I'm hoping for a drain of 5-ish).  I reserve full judgement until I get to play it, though, since one doesn't know if it fits until one tries it on.

The passive does concern me a little, though.  I'd rather it function like the avoid death augments like Phoenix Renewal and Savior Decoy, where you have a long cooldown between uses (could make this have a 120 second cooldown as opposed to the usual 90 seconds to offset the value of the buffs and the fact that it's passive) but it can be used an unlimited number of times throughout the mission, with each death randomly selecting one of the buffs.  Being able to avoid death 3 times isn't that valuable, since Wukong will already have some ways of improving his durability, so he's either not going to die anyways, or when he does start dying, 3 deaths will be relatively insignificant because he's already hit the wall of how far his durability can take him.  It also has the issue of Revenant's passive, in that it requires a frame that does very well at not hitting a low health level to hit that low health level in order to activate.  Also, setting it at a hard 3 means there's the potential of "wasting" a free death if you die in a situation where an ally is nearby and could easily revive you, whereas making it unlimited, but with a cooldown means that's really not a big deal.

Edited by ShadowFel

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This does look like it needs to take another look at equinox. Now, I have a wukong, but I only have him at this point because I have every frame, I don't play him, but it's clear to me on the frames I also don't play, doing damage dealt to you is terrible over doing damage dealt to them by you or your team... I do play equinox, and maybe we shouldn't copy that one ability I can't currently remember, but it makes me miss ember some times. And maybe some frames could just use that aoe / double tap ability, be nice if there where strikingly different takes on it, but I think I might like a fire version of that on ember, like a light oven and then a nuke going off instead of the current so bad I can't bring myself to use her more than just to remember why I don't like doing no damage to average level enemies.

Anyway though, I don't play wukong, after this rework though I'll check him out again, but just from what I'm reading, dealing enemy damage versus enemy health, bad. And incentivising death probably won't turn out well, interested to see how it does turn out, but maybe if there's some way of replenishing it like nidus, like 3 stacks of blah with buff, instead of 3 chances to get additional loot for your team kill yourself now. Just sounds like tonkoring yourself while people revive you and farm. I see "save yourself from death 3 times" but I hear "walking booster coming through gotta go kill myself". What's better? Pfff, like I care, it'll be funny watching if I'm right though, wukongs farming with their lives. I'll say though, passive from death shouldn't be something you want but something your just happy to have. like nidus, happy to have not died, but not actively trying to kill myself for a buff over here. And I say that cause it's entirely something I'll do, bonus drop chance on death? Time to die. Like a mod that increases a stat while downed, just down yourself all the time and be a turret for your team.

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This all looks great! Can’t wait to finally dust off Wukong when these changed come out.

I really hope Cloud Walker becomes fast enough to be a viable travel ability like say Zephyr’s Tail Wind or even an Archwing. It would still fit with Wukong’s lore as well since he can travel like 36k miles in one jump using his Cloud. (Honestly Wukong is probably one of the most OP beings in religion and he’s not even a God.)

 

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Look good so far. Two controlled invulnerability phases, self-healing, stealth, taunt, damage absorb/reflect, 3 2nd chances with randomly selected effects, a buddy to help you damage/tank/distract, and improved exalted melee.

On top of that faster cast times and mobility. Much better. Might take him out to test and see if likey.

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