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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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What I don't understand is what are people worried about for taking away Defy's god mode? I mean, overall he doesn't seem to have lost survivability, so what are you worried about?

I see people saying that his passive is bad for giving only 3 revives. Yeah, if you take the passive alone in consideration sure...but taking his whole kit in consideration, how much likely are you going to die with invulnerability, healing, taunting, distracting enemies, CC (paralyze/daze) and armor? Don't worry, 3 revives shouldn't be really a problem.

I understand not liking the rng and the limited amount of revives you can have, but that's simply a way to make the passive less abusable and OP. Imagine if you could choose the buffs and you could regain stacks for revive, anyone would be picking up the most OP buffs and will kill themselves to get the buff. That's what they're trying to avoid clearly, those buffs are supposed to feel like a little boon IN CASE you end up dying, not something to abuse and take advantage of. The core part of the passive is the immortality x3, the buffs are just an extra imo.

As for the reflecting damage for Defy, yeah damage reflected does not always work in this game. But...Let's not forget about Octavia and her mallet's insane scaling xD

All i'm saying is, we don't have numbers yet and it could very well be a good scaling for the damage reflected so that it doesn't feel underwhelming. Let's just wait before giving our final judgment is all i'm saying, I remember people calling Nezha's rework a nerf...but look at him now 😉

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13 hours ago, Lluminate said:

New interesting passive and awesome Primal Fury buffs? That's pretty much all I wanted. Still a bit iffy on the removal of Defy's super-tank though. I hope he can find a new niche.

Defy seems to get invincibility on cast and an amour buff on cast, hopefully as much armour scaling or even moreso than chroma.

13 hours ago, (PS4)MJ-Cena7 said:

If its anything like valkyr/ember/revenant energy requirment wukong will be doomed 

These frames are S#&$ already and are maily ruined because of the rediculous energy needed to do nothing Specially compared to excal/mesa/wisp who can do the same thing just better 

Its not as if you would want to use primal fury all of the time.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)DrakeLuven said:

What I don't understand is what are people worried about for taking away Defy's god mode?

People get mad when you tell them they actually have to play the game instead of afking

1 minute ago, ConsumerJTC said:

Its not as if you would want to use primal fury all of the time.

If you have arcane energize and decent efficiency, I don't foresee keeping primal fury up at all times to be a big problem. Especially since Wukong will be able to recover with rage/adrenaline (and has a kit that seems to strongly incentivise that).

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congrats, You are making another Vauban Now.. 

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Good lord, Cloud Walker was originally intended for STEALTH? ...I guess it didn't really have any other uses that make sense... but still. It's rather surprising that such a straight-up bad ability was included, however thematically appropriate for Wukong it was. The new version sounds much more versatile.

Honestly, I haven't played enough of Monkey Boi to say how much these changes will affect his use, but I see great things for the Monkey King going forward! (Next is that Deluxe Skin, but updated to be slightly more sci-fi as well as more in line with his existing cosmetics, right? I'm already excited!)

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13 hours ago, (PS4)PluggedInBabies said:

The biggest problem I see with this rework is that it fails to answer the fact that Wukong has one of the lowest Squad contributions of the Warframes. No team buff, no team heal, no large area crowd control, the only thing he is "bringing to the team" is aggro drawing. Spreading Defy's buff to the squad would really make him more appealing to squads, because right now he still feels like a lone wolf that doesn't care about his allies. 

Wukong does not live to serve others, but lives to serve himself and have others do other miscellaneous stuff for him.

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3 hours ago, Ekijonon said:

You wot mate, unless the change was made a since the swap to separate mods ( I can't remember if that changed it or not its, been a hot take since I used to Wukong because he made everytging trivial) otherwise I can guarantee that warframe range effects exalted weapon range on him when I haul my ass out of bed in a moment. 

No, it doesn't. Warframe range mods have never effected it's length, only how much it grows by per hit. Given it still caps at 200% growth, you can dump range mods entirely and reach max length in 30 hits.

This is why Primed Reach is also not a good staff mod.

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Another quick thought-- it would be entirely sufficient if the Wukong clone just copied all your mods, but if you wanted to go above and beyond, it might be really cool to have the clone be separately moddable and make the first real exalted specter in the game. Obviously, this would only be for the clone itself and not the weapons, but it would still be cool imo.

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2 hours ago, Zarkator said:

as soon as I heard about the rework on the devstream I was scared this would happen. Wukong is (was) my favorite frame, but the changes to his 2 and his passive are just unacceptable... in a mob looter shooter like warframe, defy working like harrow's 4 is strictly a nerf to the only thing giving wukong any usecases in the game, unless that armor buff is RIDICULOUS even by umbral chroma standards, and reducing his movement speed during it is just a kick in the pants to me. Yes, defy was a hit it and forget it ability, but it was not in any way "god mode" because being invincible in this game, as it turns out, is not only something most other frames can do well enough, as well as wukong ,or better than wukong, but it's also a minor thing in comparison to the player's real goals of finishing a mission quickly and efficiently, and that's why I loved wukong. If I may offer a suggestion for defy, just give it some recastability, that's all it needs and that's all it ever needed. In fact keeping it the way it is, but recasting it unleashes all the captured damage like this workshop already describes would be a perfect way to keep the ability active without destroying the one thing that makes wukong not the worst frame in the game. Doesnt need a limited duration, doesnt need a movement speed nerf, just give it the ability to be recast to reflect absorbed enemy damage and you've got yourself a watered down version of equinox's 4 with plenty of utility and still acts as the backbone of wukong's kit and gaining an active reason to pay attention to the ability.

As for the passive... it's just too much. Replacing the current passive is fine, but this new one is just an even less active version of the current version of defy, effectively giving you 3 extra revives, which is appealing to newer players who may find value in staying alive more easily, but for anyone who's built a rhino and gotten his augments, dying is really an afterthought when your goal is looting and shooting to get to the end of the mission, the buffs being randomly selected out of 5 in order to be able to use 3 in a mission is also just not consistent with warframe's gameplay loop. Cosmic armor is a slightly better version of current defy but only for 60 seconds, primal forces is super weapon dependant, and I think the last thing anyone wants is to have to rely on an elemental weapon because of the frame they bring when they'd prefer to bring a dread or whatever. It does synergize with wukong's 4 just fine, and judging from the general buffs to his 4, is fine, but still there's only a small chance you'll get this buff and an even smaller chance you'll die at all, not to mention it still only lasts 60 seconds which is not a lot of time for most missions. Heavenly cloak is totally worthless considering wukong's 3 is now gonna be able to bypass any stealth checks in missions like lasers etc. If you're at a point that you're dying to the enemies around you, 30 seconds of increased stealth damage is not likely to fix that problem for you unless you use the buff specifically to get to the end of the mission, and how could you effectively time your own death, count on getting this buff, then use it to leave when you could just use your 3? Monkey Luck is weird because in theory a little loot buff is good but you're really giving players incentive to stop attacking and stop playing the game, and also have them attempt to do so with planned timing in order to be able to get more loot from something other players are gonna kill, and while when this buff appears, people will use it, I dont think it really makes sense to reward players for dying so much when dying is such an uncommon thing if you're equipped well enough for the missions that you're doing. Sly alchemy is another one that sounds like it's appealing to super low-level new players who havent gotten zenurik bubbles, built energy pizzas, asked a trinity to join their team, gotten arcane energize, or any other number of ways to quickly gain energy or health, and so high level players getting this buff are gonna be mad they didnt get the loot one or cosmic armor. Really the best way to fix all of this is to get rid of any buffs entirely, or else just keep cosmic armor, because its the only one that doesnt "reward" players for dying so much as help them get back on their feet after they die so they dont lose their revives in one minute flat. Adding 3 free revives while healing wukong up to half health is fine though, its just the RNG of what buffs youll get that really seems like incentivising bad play to me.

Other than the passive and the defy nerfs that I really can't stand, his 1, 3, and 4 will probably be just fine, depending on the numbers. I really hope wukong's clone isn't weaker in terms of stats or weapon damage, and that shouldnt scale with power strength or anything either. It should just be a flat clone of wukong, mods and all, with the same weapons with the same stats, mods and all, because that would be a very good, very useful, very powerful ability, but definitely not overpowered or passive by any means. I hope that his 3 is really fast (the gif you guys put in the workshop preview didnt show it moving at all) and I hope that the healing to wukong and his clone is reasonably fast, even if it has to scale with power strength, there'll be no problem with that, and the base range of wukong's 4 being buffed up to zaw level is awesome, base damage buffs are fine, but really it comes down to the specific numbers whether or not i'll ever use it over my actual melee weapon. The primal rage augment buff seems minimal when what it needs to be good is for the ability to have a lot more base crit chance. If it can surpass (or even come up to) 100% crit chance, the augment will be super useful on wukong, and the ability will be useful too. 

long story short, please consider doing significantly less to defy, and please consider doing significantly less with the passive, other than that, if executed properly, this rework can be great and put Wukong up a couple tiers.

His passive in my eyes won't facilitate bad play no one wants to or tries to die. It won't change anyone's perspective on dying. I think you are making up an non existent issue. If you are good and his Abilities really do help you from dying efficiently then it won't matter, if you are bad then you you get a short buff and that's it.  If anything the older defy, while not totally fool proof essentially, promoted bad play and a bad mentality that Abilities like that are necessarily good for Warframe. But that's debatable, and I won't get into it. I agree with you that the clone would actually need to be useful to actually make any sense changing. Ultimately, some people don't see the bigger picture with wukong and think "new defy" no point in using, which I get it I can't stop you, but in my opinion I'd rather defy get changed and have an over all better kit. As a former wukong main, I'm actually kinda wishing defy was never the ability it was in the first place, then I wouldn't have to deal with some of those comments. I don't know, I understand why people are upset, but this just seems like the better option.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

His passive in my eyes won't facilitate bad play no one wants to or tries to die. It won't change anyone's perspective on dying. I think you are making up an non existent issue. If you are good and his Abilities really do help you from dying efficiently then it won't matter, if you are bad then you you get a short buff and that's it.  If anything the older defy, while not totally fool proof essentially, promoted bad play and a bad mentality that Abilities like that are necessarily good for Warframe. But that's debatable, and I won't get into it. I agree with you that the clone would actually need to be useful to actually make any sense changing. Ultimately, some people don't see the bigger picture with wukong and think "new defy" no point in using, which I get it I can't stop you, but in my opinion I'd rather defy get changed and have an over all better kit. As a former wukong main, I'm actually kinda wishing defy was never the ability it was in the first place, then I wouldn't have to deal with some of those comments. I don't know, I understand why people are upset, but this just seems like the better option.

sad part is the only issues i ever had with defy being what it was,

the fact it was affected by duration for invul periods instead of being fixed to a set timer of like 2-3 seconds.

the fact it had such a high cap of like 17 times before defy stopped working. Instead of like half that.

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13 hours ago, Dusteon said:

First, not a Wukong main. Want to get that out there; I'm a melee loving Valkyr noodle first and foremost. I have a few concerns though, especially given how DE normally does reworks and puts numbers on things.

Passive wise, I feel A) a player should be able to guarantee a buff, and B) buffs should be approximately equally useful in the event Wukong would have died. On that note Wukong's passive fails both. First it only triggers 3/5, and second half the buffs are useless in combat. Wukong should not have to gamble on if his death will give him invulnerability/functional invulnerability for 30 seconds, or make energy orbs more effective. I think the 2x loot and orb drops should either be removed (so he only has 3 buffs), or replaced with survival/damage buffs that Wukong would feel good about having in the event he had just died. Wukong should be able to know that when he dies, he will either be harder to kill or kill enemies better for a while.

1 wise the only problem I have is clone survival (clones don't know how to dodge), and the fact that AI is really poor so Wukong likely has to lock himself to melee only to get the clone to function well. Preferably the clone would just always use a ranged weapon as at least then it contributes.

Cloud walker is there. It exists. Only real use is for the heal or spy but let's be honest by the time you have Wukong you have a multitude of other frames capable of cheesing Spy if need be. This will rely entirely on the numbers on the heal, so hopefully those are high enough to be a full heal or close to it (especially since Warframe has a lot of ways to stay healthy now so a weak heal just won't be worth using).

Defy heavily concerns me due to animations and DE's very poor track record when it comes to usable numbers. Damage reflect wise, damage reflect is just outright terrible. Unless you give Wukong +10,000% damage reflect (or realistically even higher then that) it won't function well enough for the reflect to be meaningful. Armor buff sounds nice, but requires the duration be long enough to keep up often/constantly, and the armor amount to actually be useful instead of something like +300 armor or +20% armor. Ideally the "reflect" should be changed to a single Iron Staff spin (using his actual Exalted mods) with the absorbed damage being a multiplicative boost for that single attack. That means absorbing damage actually boosts his damage in a meaningful way, and means the damage isn't terrible to begin with.

Primal Fury sounds good, although I really hope the Drain is Excalibur style, not Valkyr style. Being forced into a Energize set if you want to actually use the cool melee Exalted as a main weapon isn't fun, and a melee Exalted that can't pass through walls is already only as strong as regular high end melee at best and does not deserve a extreme drain. Also personally wish the augment provided even more crit or his Staff's base crit chance was upped, but that's more because if he's using a entire augment slot for crit chance I feel it should be worth it.

 

Again, not a Wukong main but I feel a lot of this rework will heavily rely on decent numbers to be useful. Very concerned since DE doesn't have a good track record when it comes to that, which is why I'm even making a post.

I agree with you that the numbers will determine EVERYTHING and that's true. However, I disagree with you thoughts on the passive. The main draw in my eyes is that even though they are changing defy we still get an ability similar to the old defy, and the buffs are a bonus/reference to lore. Being able to choose would seem overly complicated, also, I could see it getting abuse VERY slightly. In addition to, you aren't supposed to be relying on it, it's a way to escape death up to three time a game and it gives you a random buff for a minute. I wouldn't recommend to people purposely killing themselves for the buffs, nor do I think people will risk it, and if the buff is good enough and you are decent enough at the game you won't be dying as easily. 

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14 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

It's a buff though.

Primed Flow + Rage + getting shot by reasonably high level enemies and you shouldn't have any energy concerns at all. Both abilities together total 2 energy per second when running Duration/Efficiency (which you should be doing).

I'm tired of mindless sheep overreacting because they see other people overreacting, but hey, here we are.

That's why you use Gladiator mods.

Buffing it's damage, status chance and giving it slash damage makes absolutely no sense to me to be honest. It does more than enough damage already, and how exactly is a stick going to do slash damage?

His stick does not do good damage at all. Maybe against lower level opponents, but no. In comparison to literally every other exalted weapon gun or melee it does the least damage. (I used primal fury extensively, fun Ability) The issue in why no one uses it is because it worse than the other exalted weapons and isn't any better than most well modded weapon with good stats. That's a general consensus backed up by years of testing by the community. However, I agree with you in general, people need to chill a bit and see things out. Also, while it makes no sense why it will do slash, they gave it slash so it can do better damage, and I'm going to just take it because it's purely a buff (even though it hurts the logical part of my brain).

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

sad part is the only issues i ever had with defy being what it was,

the fact it was affected by duration for invul periods instead of being fixed to a set timer of like 2-3 seconds.

the fact it had such a high cap of like 17 times before defy stopped working. Instead of like half that.

That's kinda true, the Invincibility phase was actually a bad thing because your energy still drained. 

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Just now, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

His stick does not do good damage at all.

You haven't modded it properly then. :tongue:

Spoiler

vQ75Vit.jpg

 

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Just now, DeMonkey said:

You haven't modded it properly then. :tongue:

  Hide contents

vQ75Vit.jpg

 

What do you use on him? Even if you can get good damage numbers it usually take too much work to do so, I've seen some crazy damage by this one guy on YouTube. 

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Posted (edited)

the passive number 4 is bad why I will kill my self to get extra loot this is unacceptable please change this and make buff damage multipler or some speed or some damage Resistance

( invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health)   

2 second and restore 50% health is enough to escape from the enemies make it 5 second and 75% restore health this is better

3 death per mission must be 6 death or 5 death and you recast this passive or recharge it like nidus passive if you do primal fury you can recharge this passive and the clone can recharge this passive if you use primal fury this idea is great and  make good synergy with other wukong ability 

defy if gave you armor like chroma 3 ability or higher this will be great and good synergy with the 3 ability and I hope this ability is affected with the clone 

I hope the clone is not die fast on high level of enemies 

Edited by abdullatif404

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Just now, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

That's kinda true, the Invincibility phase was actually a bad thing because your energy still drained. 

wasn't that part which made it bad. When your invinc phase was like 10+ seconds and you have up to 17 defies.... that's where problems arise quickly. Then the player being able to recast it just to get that refreshed. Very very easy to abuse and braindead the game. 

Had it pulled those numbers back so it couldn't be done. Honestly it would've been a better "oh crap gotta move like NOW" thing to pull up.

The energy drain wasn't doing much to counter that either. 

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

What do you use on him? Even if you can get good damage numbers it usually take too much work to do so, I've seen some crazy damage by this one guy on YouTube. 

Glad set bonus. He's running that with arcane fury and avenger probably. 

It does make him hit hard sure but the fact it needs to fall on a set bonus is kinda ew...

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That was kinda what I was assuming it is. But assuming it works for him and gets the job done then it kinda doesn't matter. 

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

Glad set bonus. He's running that with arcane fury and avenger probably. 

It does make him hit hard sure but the fact it needs to fall on a set bonus is kinda ew...

That was kinda what I was assuming it is. But assuming it works for him and gets the job done then it kinda doesn't matter

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

What do you use on him? Even if you can get good damage numbers it usually take too much work to do so, I've seen some crazy damage by this one guy on YouTube. 

Mods.

Not sure how applying mods to a frame/weapon can be considered "too much work" tbh. :tongue:

Saying it usually takes too much work isn't really relevant either, you responded to my post in which I said the staffs damage is good and claimed that it isn't good at all. I have provided a screenshot showing a huge amount of damage. How much work was required to make it happen isn't relevant, the staff does good damage.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

It does make him hit hard sure but the fact it needs to fall on a set bonus is kinda ew...

I don't see how. Relying on Slide Crits, or Blood Rush or Status Stacking for CO is kinda ew to me, as it's relatively thoughtless and cookie cutter. At least my build is somewhat imaginative. :tongue:

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9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Mods.

Not sure how applying mods to a frame/weapon can be considered "too much work" tbh. :tongue:

Saying it usually takes too much work isn't really relevant either, you responded to my post in which I said the staffs damage is good and claimed that it isn't good at all. I have provided a screenshot showing a huge amount of damage. How much work was required to make it happen isn't relevant, the staff does good damage.

I don't see how. Relying on Slide Crits, or Blood Rush or Status Stacking for CO is kinda ew to me, as it's relatively thoughtless and cookie cutter. At least my build is somewhat imaginative. :tongue:

Considering you and me use similar builds for our staves :P

Glad set bonus = weaker blood rush tho x: 

True least it's not slide crits. *hoping they make maiming strike not work on exalted weapons if they do*

As for co and status stacking... Zakti. Don't need status on his staff.

Could just be a personal thing, set bonuses always felt like a bonus perk not something one would rely on. xD

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

As for co and status stacking... Zakti.

Modding for a set bonus rather versus having to shoot every enemy with the Zakti a few times and then smacking them with my melee... That is the truest form of "too much work". :crylaugh:

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