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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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1 minute ago, Urlan said:

The current as-is state according to the post is up to 3 passive uses per mission of the five potential.

Still, i dont think it will be kept that way for long

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Liking these changes!

Let's be honest defy NEEDED a change. Survivability for the sake of survivability is overrated and not useful. Drawing aggro + invulnerability period opens up much more possibilities.

Besides, rage + lifestrike pretty much makes you unkillable (throw in adaptation or rolling guard if you want) on a melee based frame up to any reasonable level content anyway 

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You ever read webtoons God of highschool? It'd be kinda cool to have him more on that wukong. Although I would say it'd be cooler if instead of invulnerability he gains a simple damage reduction like trinity used to so it'd be a reduction proportionate to the amount of damage taken. Super tanky, but would require a lot of skill and reward more health and armor investment. Also the passive is cool, but in the lore of wukong upon losing the battle to the gods the literary analysis of the myth is that his friends sacrifice gave him monsterous strength making him immortal or attaining great strength. So why not have him get a passive like 

When an ally or himself does (put in state where auto revive is needed) he becomes either invulnerable for 1 minutes or gains a massive damage bonus. 

The five effects are cool, but honestly extremely limited. It would be interesting if they were like when his health bar reached less than 10 one is applied at random not the immortal one 

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Just a little suggestion:

make the levels of immortality reearnable. SO maybe just have it one at the start but give us another level after completing small challanges. This idea kinda stems from Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice. 

This is just a little brain fart and maybe some of you enjoy the idea.

Overall the changes sound good! i am kinda excited to play the new WUKONG.

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Posted (edited)

Most of the important stuff has already been said by others, mainly giving wukong a way to regenerate his death defying stacks by completing some kind of task, like killing x number of enemies, getting x amount of affinity, etc. ( would also kinda play with the lore since in the stories wukong had to work for his immortality, training with a monk, terrorizing the underworld and making them write his name off death's list, and some other shenanigans). The bonuses can stay random since it fits the mischievous theme and somewhat deals with the cheesing problem it would have if people could choose the buffs.

Also it would be more useful if instead of defy reflecting all damage taken by enemies it stored that damage in the form of buffs for his weapons. (could be a bit of a vague reference to how some deities imprisoned wukong inside a burning container in the hopes of killing him over time but it just ended up giving him cool glowing eyes)

For the clone part, it might alleviate some of the concerns people are having with its survivability if the clone had its own share of death defying stacks, not with the same level of buffs but saving the clone from certain death situations, the number of stacks could also be more limited.

With the augment for this ability, it feels kind of redundant to have enemies suspended when cloudwalker already has a paralysis effect going for it, maybe it would be more straightfoward and useful if the augment just added another clone? So you had two clones covering range for you while you meleed enemies away or have two clones charge into the fray with melee while you shot enemies from afar, it would just be a straight upgrade to the non augmented ability. (not only that i personally think 3 wukongs fighting at the same time would look cool and feel more complete than just the 2).

Oh and can iron vault be implemented in wukong's kit somehow? Maybe through primal fury if you bullet jumped upwards it would just do the iron vault move and launch you WAY up, giving you all the sweet slam damage and range buffs. Would also be nice if you could just change melee weapons on the fly so the damage and range buffs weren't stuck with iron staff only.

There's also the problem people are having on how he'll contribute to the squad as a whole with his abilities, in that case it might be a nice bonus if cloud walker could also heal its squad members and their companions, along with maybe curing status conditions

Edited by Potatodomo
Adding new points

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1 hour ago, (PS4)HR_Pufnstuf_1984 said:

I disagree, unless he is close to being as immortal as he is. I'm basing this on what I see from the playerbase. People like switching something on and not worrying about it, or even not even having to do that (Inaros). Same reason everyone uses a catchmoon, just wave it in the general direction and something is dead. So you think Nezha/Oberon are used more because of the great reworks? No it's because you they have better survivability, essentially more lazy.

Now if they'd only changed his 1/3 and added more damage to his 4 then yes he would become more close to the meta. Hell even Revenant isn't even that popular cause you have to recast a little bit more than Rhino. This is how I see it, after 2 weeks Wukong will still be collecting dust for most people. We'll just have to see.

I do agree that people like easy options at certain times. Inaros is a good example. You press one ability and the rest are just kind of not used that much. You won’t die while playing him. In fact if you die while playing as Inaros the player-base is obligated to send you charity platinum.

But that doesn’t mean thats all everyone uses. You don’t see every single plywr running around with Inaros or an Immortal Hildryn. Why? Because its boring. Being invincible gets old really quickly once you have it.

People like to have fun and have a bit of challenge. Thats why you see frames like Saryn, Equinox, Harrow, Khora and Ember still above Wukong in terms of usage.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’m starting to realize that maybe Wukong is just doomed to be bad/uninteresting.

Agree lol

I'm just numb about this whole rework thing, when other reworks had either had me excited to play the frame undergoing it ( Nezha is an example ) or just pissed me off completely...but in this case, i found Wukon as boring and useless as he can be and these listed changed simply left me without emotions or make me excited to play him...meh dunno i guess others will enjoy Wukie Wukie, to me nothing in his kit is interesting and so far even the "worst/most boring" frames have at least one ability that's fun or useful lol

 

Edited by arm4geddon-117

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I don't like how Defy locks you in an animation, it sounds like nyx's absorb and it's boring and awkward as hell. By how it's worded it sounds like the damage is effected by melee mods, regardless, can you have add a small pull mechanic similar to Khora's 2 or Mag's 2 to it, so basically he soaks in the damage as well as pulling the enemies closer to him so it's more satisfying to use?

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On 2019-06-13 at 1:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Passive

  • Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times.

Please change this to a cooldown timer similar to Phoenix Renewal or something like that. This is a total slap in the face to endurance players, and isn't necessary. There is an easy way to make this work for all types of game modes and runs, not just some. 

 

I'll let my best friend who mains wukong talk more about the rework as a whole, though.

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Killing defy is a huge hit, but understandable. Perhaps buffing this new passive to apply 5 times instead of 3 would help some of the older Wukong players not feel as gutted by this.

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Huh, doesn't look nearly as promising as Nezha did. I guess time will tell.

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So here are my thoughts on this l, Well the passive is weak as it will lose effectiveness at longer higher level points in the game like arbitrations.

Celestial twin

1.) Should be called split hair as wukong can make clones from his hair

2.) The augment should be clarified whether or not it will take away the ability to focus the clones damage on one target or if it is just where the clone is summoned

3.) Should also be clarified if the clone only uses our weapon or our mods as well

Enveloping cloud should honestly have a larger range because unless teammates can match your exact movements speed and heights reached or if if they are standing still... in warframe. It has no real use.

Defy

1.) Reflection of damage has never been good in warframe as the damage relationship between allies and enemies are heavily skewed where warframe do way more damage but are incredibly squishy when directly compared to sortie level range of enemies.

2.) Personally I think it would be better if it worked like a where the amount of damage he took in would calculate up to a damage buff similar to harrow or nyx mind control system 

3.) It isnt clarified if the spin attack is stored and if it can be triggered like nezhas augment or if it is instant , because if it is the latter rather than the former that makes it incredibly weaker in comparison due to most enemies engaged from a range and no way to actually group enemies to make use of it in his own kit and unless given generous range the problem of actually aiming it

All in all the rework looks good except for the passive which I feel should be changed and allow it to be a defy augment which sounds suitable for what it does.

The passive could be many other things that deal with wukong like giving him a weaker version of adaptation because in journey to the west he has his avoidance charms which are supposed to give immunity to the elements but for video game purposes you cant do that.

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I am beyond hype for this rework. I love the aesthetic of Wukong, but his kit always felt underwhelming. These changes make him feel like a proper trickster-tank and that makes me exceedingly happy. I'll be swapping Nezha for Wukong as my main once this update hits. 

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That passive is just bad.

1. The idea of getting random buffs isn't bad... Unless you want to use it. Than you need to KYS... to get a buff. It's silly

2. If you put together a build. You either ignore it, or you blow yourself up 3 times with an angstrum at the certain times (mission start on fast mission, before boss fights)  and hope you get the buff you want. It's silly.

3. I understand that warframe passives don't need to be impactful. But, - because I expect some players to build a tri-death kamikaze wukong, - I think the only effect this passive has is negative.

I suggest something like... Enemies knocked over by bullet jump are slowed and opened up for finisher for 3 seconds or something.

He'd also be better off with Djinn's reawaken. So you get to avoid death as long as you can survive 90 seconds.

 

BTW Why change defy? The current defy would fit into the reworked wukong just fine. You could change it so that it has a ramp up, so you need to deactivate/reactivate every few minutes or sg. I'm bringing this up because forcing this immortal theme on the passive seams very forced to me.

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Posted (edited)

The rework looks good, specially is Cloud Walker that will be VERY useful in Spy missions. Now, here's my feedback:

Celestial Twin - it would be nice that, if we target an ally (console, recue target, escavator) INSTEAD of an enemy, the clone would them protect him/it... Or, at least stay close to it?

Defy - I have a big issue with this going away because it is a great help with every new mission or Boss. I hope the invulnerability phase is long/good enough for it, and the spin can be big/strong enought to open stashes. Right now, I believe only Equinox can do that with his 4th, so it would be nice to have that little "extra". For... variety sake? Also, I don't like that he gets slower, because Warframe is a fast game. One thing is for stationary power to have mobility (e.g. Hidroid puddle, Nyx Absorb Assimilate aug - good), another is for mobile power to be slowed down (bad).

Passive - I'm not a big fan of leaving stuff to chance(?), specially when the "buffs" last so little time. So maybe we could have a way to select the ones we want (or not)... Possibly like Chroma, by changing the energy colors (now that we have two of them)? And/or, if you really want people to play Wukong, have the buff for the entire time he stays alive! I know, it's kind of overpowerful but even Kavat's Charm double power lasts over 2 minutes. So 60 seconds seems WAY to small to be beneficial.

All in all, he's comming along great, and so is his Deluxe skin from what I know. Good job. All the best!

Edited by (PS4)leonidasx666
Added feedback

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Please reconsider the per-mission limit on the passive. Give it some other limiting factor like the cooldown on other death avoiding abilities or Nidus' stacking requirement.

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The passive sounds nice but the loot one should be removed because it's probably going to be abused , like the good old suicide smeeta kavat trick , and instead of 3 charges per mission it should be a cool down , 120s seams reasonable.

The clone seems nice , as long as it also uses the mods on your warframe and weapons as well it's gonna be good.

Cloud Walker will be as bad as it was before but that's fine , can't win them all.

The new defy seems like an overly complicated mish mash of different abilities and and about primal fury , let it be an ability we focus on , it's basically just a melee with a new stance , not a "moment of power" . Make it a hell of a lot stronger or let it be like exalted blade 

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Posted (edited)

To the staff at DE, I like this idea for the Wukong rework, this could potentially bring in some new variety to how he could be played. However, I feel like something is missing in regards to the core idea of Wukong as a Warframe. As someone who grew up on stories of the Monkey King in Journey to the West, I would love to see him portrayed properly in a western game. The following changes are merely my personal suggestions for a Wukong rework, I have no experience in game design, so please take it with a grain of salt.

I understand that you guys at DE have been trying to make Wukong fun to play, and also keep him balanced with respect to the game as a whole. So, in regards to that, I would suggest giving him a mechanic similar to Nidus' mutation stacks (I know it sounds crazy, taking ideas from another existing Warframe, but hear me out).

Passive

  • Ferocity: Wukong's thirst for battle escalates as he decimates hoards of enemies with his trusty signature weapon. Ferocity is a resource unique to Wukong, which increases in magnitude from Wukong's Primal Fury staff kills.
  1. Ferocity stacks provide Wukong with health, armor, and melee damage bonuses, along with health regen. (I'll leave the percentage values up to DE as they understand the game better than I do. For the maximum stack number, if any arbitrary value will do, I highly suggest the number 72, as its a reference to the Monkey King's famous 72 transformations.)
  2. A fixed amount of Ferocity stacks will be consumed if Wukong takes fatal damage, granting him temporary invulnerability and restoring him to 50% health. (Keeping the idea of the undying Wukong, but players will have to actively work for it, just like Nidus.)
  3. Stack value decreases over time if there are no Primal Fury staff kills over a period of time. (Similar to Naramon combo counter.)
  4. When the Ferocity stacks reach certain values, Wukong's clone limit increases. (By how many is up to DE, as I don't know how powerful a clone is going to be. This is really just for the cool factor, as multiple clones is a very iconic part of the Monkey King's arsenal. If this introduces too much complications then this part can be ignored.)

This passive ensures that Wukong still has the element of "undying" as part of his toolset without it being the only thing players ever use him for. This also allows Wukong to dive in head first into melee and thrive in it so to speak, which is very much in line with the Monkey King's lore in Chinese mythology. (I can't deny that this has some similarities with Excalibur's playstyle with the melee, and Nidus with the undying aspect, but one thing I can be sure about is that many Chinese players will absolutely frikkin' love this.)

Statistic Changes

  • Change Wukong into a health only frame. (In Chinese lore, the Monkey King is known for his nigh indestructible body, which allows none but the most deadly weapons to harm him. My reasoning here, is with that description, the closest thing I can think of in the game would be Inaros, and having no shields really just fits more with Wukong's lore in my honest opinion. The new health and armor values is up to DE.)

I don't have anything against the rest of his ability reworks, they all seem pretty cool. Just that the idea for the passive 5 Levels of Immortality might seem interesting, but I feel like it doesn't quite bring the essence of the Monkey King to his portrayal as a Warframe. In short, this new idea for his passive would basically give players the ability to become hard to kill like old Wukong, but to do so, they have to work for it. (Want to feel invincible? Then fight like the legendary Monkey King!)

To put it in a relatable perspective (since not everyone grew up with Journey To The West), this how I see the Monkey King: He's not a god of war, he's the one you send to beat up the God of War, along with any other gods that stand in his way.

If you've read everything so far, thank you. English isn't my first language, I apologize if I made any grammar mistakes. I don't know how to bring this to DE's attention, so feel free to spread this idea if you liked it.

Edited by NoizyNinja
grammar mistake
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Posted (edited)

Why do you have to raise the energy drain of his 4? Are there too many reasons to encourage us using the iron staff? If we cannot keep the combo counter going with his 4, we may just prefer to using a regular zaw, with comparable reach and red crit everywhere.

Also I agree that a regenerable cool down system on the passive would be better than a straight 3 times, especially because Wukong was good for long runs where you either dont die or die a lot.

Edited by 1thurts

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Posted (edited)

Random buffs, AKA RNG? seriously on a warframe? and you changed the only thing that makes wukong REALLY good I dont wanna be biased but Defy looks awful to me already like what is it 3 times immortality per mission like wtf is it like mario or something where you have only 3 hearts

Edited by 8faiNt

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Posted (edited)

The only problems with his rework I have is that passive is a bit clunky, having those buffs only for a limited time (which is when he dies) and only 3 times per mission is very limited. I would give more thought for implementing them with lesser duration as a life gate ability, while also restricting how often they can be used like with phoenix reneval.

Also the thing I loved with wukong is using some melee weapons with his 1st augment, and I would be happy to see the clone use something like arca titron for massive dmg aoe outburst, there is also pangolin sword which can cause slash procs on slam. If not his new defy can hopefully compensate that. Overall fantastic work it seems to go in a very nice direction 🙂 .

Edited by OceanTempest

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