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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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A few things to add about his new kit:

Dynamic Twin controls

  • During Cloud Walker, allow Wukong to do several things to command his twin, and simultaneously prep for his eventual return from the clouds.
  • Allow Celestial Twin recast (tap the button) to command the twin to attack a new target. Hold 1 to dispel his twin for Spy missions (or to make the twin hold position until you hold 1 down again or command him to attack).
  • Allow weapon switching while in cloud form, to change his Twin's weapon on demand.
  • Allow Primal Fury to be turned on and off in cloud form, also to control what weapon the twin (and yourself) wields.

It appeared the Twin teleported back to Wukong when he exit Cloud Walker in the gif. Is that a built-in function or the Twin can't wander too far from Wukong?

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Sounds good. Looking forward to it.

Celestial Twin - finally some love for his cloning abilities that is true to the lore

Cloudwalker - Didn't like it but with the speed up and allowing me to break it into an attacking immediately, instead of having to turn it off before attacking, is a good QOL upgrade.

Defy - The changes seems better than the 1-trick Monkey that this skill created previously

Primal Fury - Gotta wait to see how the new one feels in the game before commenting

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Posted (edited)

@[DE]SpaceySarah

So me being a pretty attached to Wukong for my go to warframe when I just want to grind, and I'm actually not please at all the with the changes purposed here.

But lets see what we can do about that, objective criticism to follow: 


1. Passive: 

His current passive will need a change when Melee 3.0 rolls out either way, but putting a finite number of chance buffs is almost worthless, i would say remove the finite number and random buffs and make it defy-like by giving him a 20 second cool down on the skill with full health, shields and 25% energy. If your to remove his only useful skill to a his passive at least make it something comparable instead of gutting it to nearly nothing. Also on a side note, since we still have tank frames like Inaros and Rhino walking around that literally have to do little to nothing in the way of interactive/tactical gameplay to gain a substantial amount of survivability I don't see why a similar tactic is not allowed through defy, more on this later. PS: Inaros is literally 2 skills at the moment also, pocket sand and scarab armor just saying.

2. Iron jab change to Celestial Twin:

On the note of the actual ability Celestial Twin, I think it could be ok, the problem with this sort of ability is that the AI that is used with these clones (IE Equinox) tends to be very hit or miss. Either annihilating everything insight in the POE or staring at a wall the whole time in most mission hallways. so I would be ok with this change as it is a positive change since his 1 iron jab is quite literal garbage. However I do like the idea of the swapping of arms from melee and ranged weapons and targeting/focusing the clone, since this offers me control over the clone as opposed to it wondering aimlessly.

As you might notice with Wukong most of his kit except his 2 defy and 4 Primal Fury are an open canvas, his 1 Iron Jab is no exception to this. I have spent a lot of time thinking about this skill when you removed the "Iron Leap/Glaive combo" and I came to a thought that you could use as you already gave it to him. Skill "Iron Wind", have him throw his staff like a large spinning boomerang. Using it more as a crowd control ability knocking down (not rag dolling them into space) a WIDE circular path of enemies around him. This would allow his more Melee centric playstyle to shine as he would then be able to ground attack downed enemies while CC'ing others and give him a 1 that actually would be more widely applicable. Lastly you could even add a charge mechanic to this making it a WIDE linear throw with the same effect or even pull enemies back to him so that he could proceed to SMASH with his staff. or instead of a charge attack just cause all cloud marked* enemies to be pulled to Wukong's location.

3. Defy:

Ok so now we get to the meat of the topic...

Defy has been the bread, butter, cheese, crackers, and the whole dang pantry for Wukong since his release (only a slight time did we have the iron vault/Glaive thing).

This being said I'm not opposed to changing this ability as the passive i purposed offers a similar play style with more interactive play. This also being said unless something takes a similar play style then Wukong will be joining Vauban and Atlas on the least played warframe, and already he isn't far anyways.

So my idea here is to switch some power around with his abilities, the whole Nyx idea here is crap and is not offering a more tactical or interesting game play style, I have played Nyx sitting in a bubble and it is a lot more boring than running around immortal. Also, enemies do not do a lot of damage compared to the armor rating they have, so you could charge up all the damage you want and it is worthless to reflect that on them in later game play. 

So one idea i had for this skill, if we kept the passive and changed 1st skill to "Iron Wind" then I would cause this skill to be:

Cloud Dash: Wukong gains immunity for a few seconds during dash and dashes to all targets within the radius of a target enemy, each enemy past the the primary target would summons a clone of wukong for a few seconds that would be melee equipped with the same weapon as the original Wukong. All enemies will be marked with a cloud mark* when struck with this skill, cloud mark* will last for a few seconds.

Trickster skill: When clones are active, skill turns into Trickster. Trickster will cause Wukong to teleport to target clone location and assume its position and stun all enemies around the target location.

4. Cloud Walker:

Ok, if I were to attempt to describe Wukong to someone that has never played him, this ability sounds cool "You can change into a cloud". However anyone that ever actually used Wukong found out that his 1 sucked, but his 3 was by far the worst ability in his kit. As far as the quality of life changes to this I can agree it needed A CRAP TON of love to make this something else other than an excuse for a fart joke. By all means this is better with the speed-ups both casting and movement, but it really needs something else. As far as i can tell, you may take away his immortality and this was the sad gimmick to say "look he has some survivability after the 3 charges are used up on the passive". If you want to do something with this ability just start over from scratch.

While we are on the note of fixing something that is definitely broke why don't we do something thematic and chaining to his kit to bring things together. In his lore and in Warframe Wukong is supposed to be an immortal trickster with deceptive and powerful abilites, so for his 2, lets have him have two abilities. 

First, when he has a ranged weapon equiped, he can target enemies and allies with this ability. When targeting an enemy with cloud mark* it will cause it to freeze in place for a duration and also have reduced armor or shields for the duration. When targeting allies and maybe himself it would cast a frozen mist to surround the target that would increase evasion for the duration like on titania. (Kind of his ice theme from the lore going on)

Second when he has a melee weapon equiped, he can cast a charging AOE taunt causing all enemies to only target him for a duration. This would not have to be line of sight as all enemies would seek out only Wukong until damaged or have a damage threshold then resume their normal AI. The charge up could effect any of the following, range, damage threshold, duration, or even at full charge leave a clone of himself at the center of the taunt to take the damage. 

This is just a few ideas off the top of my head, but there is a lot of artistic license that can be used with Wukong in his lore and leaving cloud walker or the "new" cloud walker as is could be a waste of real estate on this frame.

5. Primal Fury:

I have actually liked this skill for a long time, just needed some love, which I think you have done well.

The only thing i would add with this ability would consume a cloud mark from a marked enemy causing 33% max health damage.

 

Over all, this does turn Wukong into a melee centric warframe with some massive survivability. However requires Wukong to work towards his 5 paths of immortality.

* = Cloud Mark: Causes enemies to be lethargic and slowed. Each enemy that is marked give Wukong a stacking armor buff for the duration of the mission.

Edited by Akihoshi
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as a Wukong main im not looking forward for his rework

 

i dont think they need to completely rework him just tweak a few things like:

1 more damage/range to his iron jab or change it so he swings in front of him knocking over/rag-dolling enemy's  

2 have less duration on his defy when he "dies" and more of a energy depletion when he "dies" for balance 

3 his cloud walker just needs a speed buff since it already opens enemy's to finishers when casting and coming out of it and/or change it so he actually rides the cloud and can use his iron jab and primal fury on it as weapons 

4 buff the damage of primal fury. with it being a exalted weapon its competing with other exalted weapons such as exalted blade, Garuda talons, diwata, valkyr talons and Serene Storm which are all stronger (i do not have baruuk so i do not know if it is better or worse)

 

passive: i think his current passive is really useful especially with blood rush or weeping wounds but i do think its quite bad for anyone whos not using those mods

i do like the idea of there planned new passive but i do not think it should be 3 times per mission. it should be like phoenix renewal and have a cooldown of 1-4 minuets (depending on enemy level) and the buffs that come with it should be just a tad longer aside from the invincibility 

 

anyway thats just my opinion and what i think. if you reply to this i probably wont see it bla bla bla have a nice day

 

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i think his passive be where he get his Immortality is cool though i do wish it wood not run out aka i wish it can recharge over time but have a very long cool down also give him 5 life to make the passive name have bit more meaningful too wood be nice because otherwise he only use 3 of his Immortal ways and leaving the other 2 alone for rest of the mission like why? wood he not use his other Immortal ways to stop him from dying if he still has them to use? also on topic of how his Immortal way come back and i don't no if this is balance or not just a idea i had but i think you should make it where if he wood to die it wood give him a red debuff or buff i don't no what it is really call but like with oberon phoenix renewal wind you do die with it on you get it that red buff showing up on your hud and it counted down until oberon phoenix renewal will stop you from dying again and for how wukong passive wood work wind you do die it wood give you a cool down of 120 sec each time he die once that timer is up he regain one of his Immortal ways but if he wood to use them all up his Immortal ways the cool down timer of his currents debuff of his passive wood all be reset and wood be increase to 600 sec but at end of 600 sec all his Immortal ways wood be regain instantly also the debuff wood stack like the operators transference static debuff so let say you have 3x the of the debuff it wood go down by 1 every 120 sec and then restart the count down from 120 sec for the next debuff and keep do that until there all gone or until you use all your immortal ways up and it turn into the 600 sec debuff you wood also have that down time of 600 sec and if you wood to go down like enter bleed out it will reset the timer back to 600 secs until you can stay alive for the 600 sec with out go down to get all of yours Immortal ways back also wind come to new defy ability i do like that we are getting a taunting ability in warframe that is not force you to use sword and shield to taunting enemy's or having giant energy drain like nyx 4 wind you get hit by a attack and wood like to see some of the other tank frames like rhino get something like that too to make them do there job in helping the dps stay alive by tanking all incoming damage onto them and let the dps frames do there job by kill things with out be one shot by high level enemy's

ps sorry ahead of time for any one who may be read this my not the best at grammar or spelling so it may be hard to read

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Posted (edited)

I like the rework so far, though I'd personally like to see 3 changes done to it.

1: I'm honestly not too fond of Cloud Walker's augment still being a "grant invisibility to allies in your cloud", I'd much rather see the augment more drastically change the ability. I've seen many proposed ideas, though if it were up to me, I'd like to be able to fly on the clouds and still be able to attack.

2: I would like to see his passive be on a cooldown, rather than an extra 3 lives (like Phoenix Renewal), so it'd be more useful for longer missions [Edit: also allowing all of the effects to potentially apply].

3: I would want Defy to have roughly a second of invulnerability when ending the ability, just to make sure we aren't vulnerable during a time in which we may not be able to act yet (mind you, this is mostly stated, as I don't know exactly how big the armor buff may be).

Edited by Shade_Final
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Am 13.6.2019 um 19:38 schrieb [DE]SpaceySarah:

Calling all Tenno and Wukong lovers!

Released in 2015, Wukong entered the Arsenal as an homage to Chinese folklore. Since his initial inception, we’ve undergone changes to Melee and beyond which have made this Warframe feel a bit left behind. As highlighted in our latest Devstream, exciting developments are in the works for Wukong - and we are not monkeying around. Read on to see how we plan on making all his abilities a bit more active and meaningful:


Statistic Changes

  • Health will be increased from 100 to 150 (at max rank increased from 300 to 450).
  • Shield will be decreased from 125 to 100 (at max rank decreased from 375 to 300).
    • Why? Since Wukong’s new kit now involves an armour buff, relying more on his health will enable a better synergy.
  • Energy will be increased from 100 to 120 (at max rank 150 to 180).
  • Sprint will be increased from .95 to 1.0.


Celestial Twin

  • Replacing Iron Jab, Celestial Twin will allow for Wukong to shed a part of himself to call a supporting clone into action. The clone will attack from range while Wukong uses melee, or will use melee while Wukong uses range.
  • Press ability again to command Wukong’s clone to attack a specific target with increased damage.
  • Wukong’s clone will remain until it runs out of life.

Reasons for changes: Iron Jab is being replaced as it essentially exists as a weaker version of other powers. Wukong’s Ultimate can fulfill and surpass the role of Iron Jab, while fulfilling more of Wukong’s lore and creating a more powerful, synergized kit.

 

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Cloud Walker

  • Wukong evaporates into a fast-moving cloud of mist that will temporarily daze and paralyze enemies in his path. While in his cloud of mist, Cloud Walker has the additional mechanic of healing Wukong and his clone.
  • His movement can be interrupted by attacking at any time.
  • Cloud Walker has a much faster cast time which will no longer hold Wukong in place.
  • Wukong will no longer trigger laser traps or doors while using Cloud Walker.
  • Energy cost for Cloud Walker has been lowered.

Reasons for changes: Previously, Cloud Walker did not have many use cases as it was a slower and lesser stealth option than that of other frames. These changes make the Ability good for repositioning, more well-rounded - and WAY faster.

 

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Defy

  • Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.
  • Based on the amount of damage prevented by Defy, Wukong and his clone will receive a temporary armour buff.
  • Press ability again to trigger spin early.

Reasons for changes: Previously, Defy’s invulnerability was not very interactive. This change features invulnerability while encouraging more tactical, active, and interesting gameplay techniques. As many of us used Defy to be immortal, it simply was too much of a set-it-and-forget it ability. Changing it to still offer invulnerability is important to us, and strengthening the rest of his Abilities makes up for the loss of complete god mode.

 

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Primal Fury

  • Primal Fury will feature a new specialized and streamlined combo for Wukong’s legendary Iron Staff. As a preview of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system, Wukong’s Primal Fury uses new combo routes with simplified inputs providing a safe, limited space to try out coming releases.
  • Damage for Wukong and his clone is redistributed for a more powerful feel, with a much higher status chance, larger base range, and some slash.
  • Casting no longer holds Wukong in place. With new energy requirements, the cast cost of Primal Fury was lowered but cast drain was increased to be turned off and on as desired.
  • Animation has been trimmed.
  • The range of Wukong’s Iron Staff is always long, comparable to top range Zaws, and no longer needs to build combo to scale range.

Reasons for changes: When Primal Fury was initially used previously, it felt weak due to short range and after some use felt strong. These changes will enable a stronger, more exciting play while featuring a taste of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system.

 

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Passive

  • 5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.
    1. Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
    2. Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
    3. Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
    4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
    5. Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds


Augments

  • Celestial Twin Augment: Replacing Iron Vault, Wukong will command his clone to perform a wide radius slam, suspending enemies.
  • Enveloping Cloud: No planned changes.
  • Primal Rage: Increased cap from 100 to 150%, increased bonus per kill from 10% to 15%. Drain now scales with duration, so the higher Wukong’s duration, the slower it drains, and when Wukong gets a kill the drain stops for 5 seconds.


Right now, Wukong is one of our less utilized Warframes. We hope that these changes will create a more interesting and engaging playing experience for current Wukong mains while helping this trickster find his way into the hearts of future fans. To celebrate the changes, all players who currently own Wukong will receive 3 Forma!

We’re really excited to share these early stages, but keep in mind that everything listed is still subject to change prior to release! Please feel free to share your constructive feedback and thoughts below on the developments coming to The Monkey King. As Lotus once said, “Everybody's got something to hide, Tenno. Except Wukong.”

*Wukong will be disabled in Conclave after his Revisit has launched until the team can properly balance him for the Conclave gamemode.

Give the passive the Option to refresch like Phönix ... ! 

But forward that you can Have just 3 from this to same time on couldown. 

 

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Why not just let him, ya know, revive every 60 - 90 seconds rather than 3 times in a mission. Kinda like a permanent Phoenix Renewal revive kind of deal.

Don't really have much to say about the remainder, since I haven't tried it out.

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10 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Why not just let him, ya know, revive every 60 - 90 seconds rather than 3 times in a mission. Kinda like a permanent Phoenix Renewal revive kind of deal.

Don't really have much to say about the remainder, since I haven't tried it out.

Would work, but I think they are trying to get rid of his ability to be able to survive lethal damage as easily like Valkyr might for example. I wouldn't have any problem with it at the least, and I have to lose a mod slot for an augment mod for mine. The thread is for what is shown here though, so I don't think it would be out there to try to figure how well the movesets would do based on the available information. Like comparing the replacement for defy to a melee Nyx Absorb for example.

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I rly like this iteration of wukong - looks much better than the previous iteration!

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4 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Why not just let him, ya know, revive every 60 - 90 seconds rather than 3 times in a mission. Kinda like a permanent Phoenix Renewal revive kind of deal.

Don't really have much to say about the remainder, since I haven't tried it out.

Putting it on a timer is fine, but imo 60-90 seconds is a bit too generous, especially if we're keeping the 3 stacked revives and all his other invuln/tanking abilities. 2 minutes is more reasonable.

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So instead of 3 extra levels for 5 levels of immortality why cant we fill a bar or counter like nidus to give us that extra life and buff?

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I'd like to add some ideas I had here if its ok..

Wukong passives (apart from the 5 techniques which are already there for wukong) & Some extra goodies along with wukong delux skin if possible.

- Sprint animation - rather than the normal running animation which depends on speed mods to make it faster or normal, Would like to see a cloud under his feet when we press the sprint button and directional keys to make ti look like hes gliding or skating on  land with the cloud under his feet. And one hand holding the wukong staff on his shoulder while he glides through the surface instead of just normal running animations. (Cloud color same as energy color of wukong or the energy color combos used to have different cloud colors). If wukong stops sprint cloud disappears automatically if sprint again it appears under the feet after 2 or 3 steps of running.

- Sprint staff twirl - while sprinting if you press sprint key again the cloud gliding gets a small dash and twirls his staff like its a propeller of a plane while it does like a knockback damage to enemies dropping them on the ground.

- Wukong idle animations when player doesnt do anything still doesnt have the wukong staff showing up either from the noble or agile animations or wukong so adding the staff into those animations would give it same importance as having butterflies coming out for titania or the harrow thurible when the warframes are standing idle and their default animations start up.

Wukong 1st ability - Clone 

- Instead of just 1 clone why not add 3 clones depending on the rank of wukong, it would kinda make it fun to watch 3 spectre like wukong clones doing causing some meyham and being the mischief maker he is it would be cool to see that, ofcourse depending on number of clones spawned the damage dealt to enemies is distributed 

- Keeping the ability style same as what is mentione in rework, clicking on ability again pointing at a specific enemy would make the clones go and attack only that enemy dealing more damage compared to the freely active clones

- Clone spawning - holding down the ability key will spawn how many wukongs are need for help to fight along and distract enemies (energy drain increases the more clones are summoned) capped to only 3 extra clones and no more giving it a 4 player feel to it or if it is possible may be 4 clones cap to make it look as we are using mirages 1st ability but with more freely active clones rather than clones that mimic main frame being used.

 

Rest of the other abilities I dont really have any ideas for changes for those cos the one thing I wanted for cloud walker was to make it be unaffected by laser alarms and triggers since its the best ability for wukong to use in a spy mission. And more combos for the wukong primal fury 4th ability with the staff is also done so I have no ideas to add there.

Wukong Deluxe skin extras if possible:

- K-drive skin- to look like a cloud skin for k drives which is affected only by the energy color for whole cloud or a special color changing animation to make it look like energy colors on the cloud keep automatically changing to random colors depending on color palette pack chosen. 

- Sentinel skin - again a cloud skin for sentinels which some lightning effects which dont really to any lightning damage to enemies but would looks cool to have a cute cloud follow you around with some lightning effects when its is close to enemies to alert player of enemies lol.

 

I know I know the last bit of ideas are asking for way over the top in such short time. But I would definitely want to see the simple sprint animation turned into a simple cloud or mist under feet of wukong and make him glide type of animation happen and also may be the wukong clone idea too if its possible. But definitely the wukong cloud sprint and sprint staff twirl animations would be great if they could add it somehow.

Thank you and please dont mind the lengthy post.

 

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Posted (edited)

So, here's my pre-emptive feedback, from what looks to be a VERY promising rework!

Celestial Twin

  • Much better ability, through and through! Great rework here, for sure.
  • Important stealth-related issue: While active, holdcast to remove it, please? Simply for stealthreasons, as Cloudwalker seems to be MUCH better aiding in Spy missions, for example. Having a clone you can't dismiss would totally ruin that.

Cloudwalker

  • Much better! Speed and healing is a perfect reason to use it, love it!
  • Bonus fluff: Could it maybe pause the melee combo counter too, so it has further melee synergy on him?
  • Augment: How about (on top of the stealth - which shouldn't break immediately on attack either, please) also allowing it to heal allies?

Defy

  • First of all; That looks very visually appealing! Nice job!
  • Can the staff spin attack be 1) more "spherical" so it works better with verticality and 2) cause a knockdown on enemies, for some useful CC after its best tanking portion (i.e. the invulnerability) is over?
  • Bonus fluff: Can there be (along with the reflect spin attack) be a damagebuff to him and his clone too, on top of that armorbuff? That'd synergize very nicely with Primal Fury, if nothing else.

Primal Fury

  • Are there any animation changes? Because, to put it very bluntly, the animations are awefully stiff and boring, rather than smooth and fluid like the Clashing Forest combos
  • Important useage issue: I still don't see anything special about this weapon to truly justify it as an Exalted Weapon. Compare it to the other users:
    • Excalibur - Has its bladewaves
    • Valkyr - Has lifesteal and invulnerability-esque mechanic
    • Baruuk - Has the windwaves, damage resistance and uses a seperate resource
    • Titania - Has flight and evasion
    • Ivara - Has a shotgunbow with ajustable angle of fire and only costs energy while firing
    • Mesa - Has autoaim
    • Khora - Has a whole additional pet (which is good on its own), along with unique attacks
    • Wukong - Has... a staff with no additional effects (and bad combos, honestly). Arguably, he has a clone that can use it too -BUT- this clone can use ANY weapon, not just the exalted weapon, so that benefit is moot, and not really a passive effect to the ability (that's more a passive of his 1st ability, if anything). If it notably had the longest reach of ALL melee weapons in the game, that'd be something. Even (boringly copying from Valkyr) a tiny bit of lifesteal would make it super useful. Or borrowing from the passives; Elemental blasts in an AoE around you (and your clone) with 100% status chance when you perform complete combos? And maybe also a weak version of Condition Overload to it? Just... something different other than "summon a basic staff" would be nice.

Passive(s)

  • Extra lives is a neat thing (and a neat homage to old Defy), but the RNG of the buffs is bleh. Especially since two of them are vastly superior (invisibility and invincibility), one of them is a boring meta-buff (loot), while the last two are kinda ok (elemental damage and orb boosts). Got nothing to offer as an improvement for it though, just wanted to chime in on not liking its RNG.
  • Important issue: The lootbonus is horrendously bad as a bonus after dieing, because such a non-fighting bonus GIVES US INCENTIVE TO KILL OURSELVES STRATEGICALLY. For example, I will see people (myself included) bringing a selfdamage weapon and nuke myself before looting bosses and such (like on the Profit Taker or Exploiter Orb bossfights), hoping to get that sweet 2x drop bonus. This is NOT a good design, for very obvious reasons.

 

For a sort of TL;DR:

The 3 most critical changes would be:

  1. Allow us to unsummon Celestial Twin (with holdcast), for stealth reasons with Cloudwalker
  2. Give Primal Fury some interesting passive (and hopefully improve those animations!), so it doesn't feel like such a basic melee weapon.
  3. Preferably not using RNG in his passive, and definitely not a lootbonus (since it gives us an incentive to strategically kill ourselves before looting bosses, for example)

Other than those issues, I'm really looking forward to this rework!

Edited by Azamagon
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1 hour ago, TheNerdyNerd said:

Why would you get rid of invulnerability?! This is basically a nerf. 

Yes it is. And its a needed one. Wukong is barely used because he is both boring and outclassed by other frames.

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14 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So Defy is basically becoming a smaller scale Nyx’s Absorb. That’s a big problem because the way Absorb converts damage now makes it functionally useless. Giving that same power to Wukong with those same calculations that Absorb uses with make Defy just as useless.

Until we actually see the damage numbers we can't really make much of an opinion, though it seems as the primary use of the ability is increase his armor. 

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Posted (edited)

i rly dont get why people are complaining that his immortality gets nerfed and revamped....

The whole idea of this rework is to make him more than just an immortal afk champ where you only need 1button to play him.

Its totally fine to limit his immortality to make the rest of his kit more fun and interactive.

Tho i agree on one thing - pleas make his exhalted weapon more special in any way possible - the combos are not fun to use and its pretty stale and boring compared to the other exhalted ones 

For example - let any enemy hit by his weapon, be struck by lighting after a short duration - that would make this weapon way more unique.

Edited by Kayantao
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15 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

It's the ignorant masses that think it's a useful ability.

People following mindless cookie cutter builds so that they can continue to play the game with the minimum required brainpower...

You're effectively a detriment to yourself and your team if you choose Wukong right now, there is no use at all in his abilities. If you want a tank with a useful tanking ability, pick Revenant. Wukong isn't it, Defy isn't it.

Quite a few of the people who actively take part in Wukong discussions on these forums, funnily enough.

Exactly, while I understand why people are upset, this is over better for the state of the game and Wukong, even if he doesn't get a huge surge in usage, he will over all be a much better designed frame. I'm ok with his defy changing to result in more unique and active kit. People don't see the huge picture and are either so afraid of change or so stuck in their own ways that they would let frames like wukong stay the way it was.

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1 minute ago, Kayantao said:

i rly dont get why people are complaining that his immortality gets nerfed and revamped....

The whole idea of this rework is to make him more than just an immortal afk champ where you only need 1button to play him.

Its totally fine to limit his immortality to make the rest of his kit more fun and interactive.

Tho i agree on one thing - pleas make his exhalted weapon more special in any way possible - the combos are not fun to use and its pretty stale and boring compared to the other exhalted ones 

For example - let any enemy hit by his weapon, be struck by lighting after a short duration - that would make this weapon way more unique.

Or make it have more cc, the staff In the legend grows, and bashes enemies about. The combos should be better.

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15 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Yes it is. And its a needed one. Wukong is barely used because he is both boring and outclassed by other frames.

Man, I'm not trying to make assumptions but I doubt a lot of the people who are complaining even play much wukong at all. Wukong's Invincibility while cool and useful to an extent is hampered by his boring and almost useless kit (some people like the iron vault build and some have success with his staff). He needed the change. In comparison to any other tank he pailed in comparison because he doesn't provide cc, buffs or anything. Other tanks can do that and assuming you are decent at the game you won't die as easily. 

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Well, I'm not sure what to say about the rework. His passive, Celestial Twin and Cloud Walker, all seem fine. But Defy and Primal Fury just seem worthless. Everyone keeps saying "wait to see the numbers", but if past reworks are any indication the numbers are gonna suck.

 

Defy just looks clunky, and seriously DE, DAMAGE REFLECTION IN WARFRAME DOESN'T WORK. So in the end Defy will end up never being touched after the rework.

 

When I look at Primal Fury I keep concentrating on this line " comparable to top range Zaws". So, what you're saying is I should just use a Zaw? On top of any warframe being able to use Zaws, they don't require any energy, can use Rivens, arcanes, and Shadow Debt mods. Primal Fury doesn't have a gimmick, it's just a stick. There's just no reason to use it over the melee we already have. This rework doesn't address that at all.

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18 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Yes, you can push Chroma's damage output higher by modding entirely around making your weapon dependent on Vex Armor, but that doesn't mean you "have to mod [your] weapons without damage mods and replace with something else." It just means that it's viable for Chroma to accept greatly reduced damage output without buffs (and the commensurate dependency on keeping your buffs up and your buff percentages high) for much higher damage while fully buffed. That's not inherently a bad design decision and can be argued to actually be a good thing, because it allows for more interesting build decisions.

Alright this is dumb, and there are many reasons why this won't be "interesting build decisions". One obvious rebuttal is: The only change is you should no longer mod for damage. Interesting indeed, except the only interesting part is you need to make an exclusive loadout for this change and aura you provide to allies are also sub-optimal for 99.99% of player's builds. "Good design! Ship it!" Results: we save a slot for an elemental mod, we but a loadout slot for chroma and confuse ourselves which build is which since he's non-universal like all the other frames...

A good example was when DE Scott decided "I don't want to run a high health inaros with my pet, so I'll let players use the sentinel health mod on pets!" Good idea, but in practice, some of the lowest health frames (300 hp) with 165% link health is ~495 hp, while 220% health of base pet health is like 275hp at best (the highest health pet is like 125 base hp). Im no math expert but 495>275... What DE typically does are face value changes. Riven changes sound nice and makes sense how they explain it. Except they omit the entirety of the demographic that only uses the weapon for the riven disposition, the fact low dispositions perform worse than a simple primed elemental mod, the fact the market completely shifts so they earn more platinum purchases, and lastly their entire campaign on making bad weapons good??? Well 300% of 5% base is +15%, and the average weapon with average stats like 15% base with 150% is already +22.5%. But it doesn't stop there, a 30% base stat with 60% riven is +18%. Well wait a minute, not only will bad weapons still be bad, 5+15=20, average weapons 15+22.5=37.5, but good weapons will be 30+18=48. It doesn't deliver on promise, because the base stat is where the problem lies, and rivens are just meta gimmicks on players to spend platinum (which is why they shift dispositions when the market is saturated to encourage more platinum purchases). Basically the math doesn't support their well intentions, and neither does the design choice of chroma's damage buff. You're changing a different thing here and the result is inconvenience.

Enough ranting, this isn't the first time DE promised something, shipped something else, then changed their minds because they can monetize off something (Primed Chamber). I can go into a whole discussion on how these seamingly small things are indirectly making DE lots of money but that should go into another forum. I just want to end with the point: "Don't end your train of thought on ideals. A scientific mind set looks for the truth in its entirety from reproducible source to results. We don't just study sciences, we apply them too. That's what research is! It's not because something is different then it's immediately good" Please consider the cause and effect before jumping on "Mother knows best". Remember, there used to be people that sacrificed human lives for their gods. Don't take things face value

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

The 3 most critical changes would be:

  1. Allow us to unsummon Celestial Twin (with holdcast), for stealth reasons with Cloudwalker
  2. Give Primal Fury some interesting passive (and hopefully improve those animations!), so it doesn't feel like such a basic melee weapon.
  3. Preferably not using RNG in his passive, and definitely not a lootbonus (since it gives us an incentive to strategically kill ourselves before looting bosses, for example)

You summarized nicelly my gripes with the rework as well. For the passive a 20% armor bonus would be nice for every cheat death, so you get 100% armor bonus on the 5th and final cheat death. Would combo nicelly with the defy and not give us incentives to die, while still giving us survivability after the passive is "spent", instead of simply not having a pssive. Throwing me a rng boon for sucking is terrible imo

I would give away that nice new defy animation anyday for it not holding my monkey ass in place in a slow motion state. Let me use it on the move while shooting and beating S#&$ up or on a nice quick animation so i can still do stuff while it "absorbs".

Survivability passive to combo with defy + quick defy animation and im happy with it.

edit: Primal fury already hits like a truck, and they are buffing its dmg, status chance and range. It seems to me it will become by far the best melee/polearm/staff in the game. Throw some cool combos with AOE in the mix and i think its unique enough in my opinion. A frontal slam with a enlarged staff would be cool, something like Sun Wukongs from smite and DOTA 2 monkey kings first ability. My main gripe is with the Augment, which could offer some interesting gimmick instead of a mandatory crit boost

Edited by MonkeyKV
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Okay everyone that thinks the cloud walker is good now let me remind you it is still basically a flying version of hydroid's puddle with it's augment and while the puddle is slow it actually is a good ability and does damage. The new cloud walker not only doesn't allow you to take advantage of the stealth multiplier most other stealth abilities can it also does not allow you to interact with anything while using it  just like the old cloud walker. It will literally just be a healing ability that does not fit on the frame, nor in the lore of wukong he has no healing abilities in the lore because he doesn't need it he is 6 times immortal. I get that there are people that don't want the set it and leave it gameplay but that is just how wukong in lore. But this ability is boring and a limbo with a ghost sentinel would actually work just as well. And what's really bad is that it still an ability that forces you to leave combat in order to heal that, even the puddle allows you to still fight when healing as a puddle. But yes I concede the fact that leaving the cloud is easier and quicker than leaving the puddle since you can melee out but still unless the heal is instant full health then it would take you out of the game for longer than what is acceptable. We don't need to settle with just another mediocre ability like this because DE has already shown that they are willing to take an ability out when they took iron jab and traded it for celestial twin, and I don't believe we need the cloud. The changes are  just like you had pancakes no syrup just pancakes then this person came in and said "hmm the pancakes need syrup" though no one wants them they now have pancakes and syrup with their kungpao chicken. Also cloud walker is based on the cloud that let the wukong somersault halfway around the world if anything it should be a passive that enhances bullet jumping and give him a cool visual at most.

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