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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, CMD0bvious said:

 

  • If the twin dies, the caster gets one of the passive buffs. This increases the consistency and chance the caster can benefit from the passive.

 

And then people would teamkill the clone 5000 times to stack up the resource buff and pop that kuva siphon for 1 mill kuva XDDD

 

I like the idea, ples add to the game

Edited by Chatv71e

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3 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Wukong was capable of elemental magic, taught to him during the process of attaining his first (of 5) level of immortality. 

I see... still, even if lore-wise he had elemental magic, game-wise it would be more beneficial (and, I belive, more code-efficent) to have overall damage increased (which also includes the elemental damage) rather than just the elemental portion of it.

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I like it.

I'm a bit iffy on the passive but everything else looks like it's really hitting the sweet spot.  🙂

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On 2019-06-13 at 5:29 PM, (XB1)TrS DTKW said:

I’m happy to admit that lvl 100 content that’s restricted on energy with enemies that can 1 shot most of my frame is hard no prob bro and thanks for agreeing that Inaros atm is as useful as dirt since you never denied me

 

Didnt need to, as you made it abundantly clear you have no idea how to mod frames and crutch on an overpowered unkillable-state frame, therefor your opinion on another frames tankiness, survivability, etc. is completely irrelevant 🙂

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Could we have the one let us swap between the two clones? That would be lovely. Also the passive should def not have some weird cap. What if instead right you had to get Fury stacks like Nidus gets his stacks. So when you kill with the staff you gain Fury or hair or something that allows you to use the passive when you die. The more fury you gain you get stronger more Armor and Damage giving you a damage mitigation at max stacks. Using your clone uses either flat amount of the Fury or Hairs you gain. Allowing you to make more clones if you hold 1 down you can get up to 3 Clones out that will have Melee, Main Weapon, Side arm and when you go Ult they all go ult and run around. But when you take a fatal blow you lose half or all your stacks or something.

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Seems obvious to me that the passive needs a reconsideration if only because endless endurance runs are a thing, and the passive has a limited number of activations, whereas all other passives I can think of are just "always on" and would retain their use for however long you are in a mission.

The solution of some mechanic to earn those charges for autorevive is good. Either survive 5min or kill # of enemies are good examples. Even a 2min oberon style autorevive mechanic.

Another that I would suggest is triggering the (random if neccessary) passive buffs part of the passive any time a clone dies. This would be a condition acheivable for the duration of any mission.

As I posted previously, and others have also put forth: I would remove the autorevive from the passive and make it so if you take fatal damage while a clone is alive, it dies in your place instead. With the passive moved to the death of clones, it is useful and does not encourage suicidal play or penalize us for stupid specter ai. Will it be too easy to keep a clone up when it matters? (During long endurance runs) or will it be dying so often that you have to constantly bring it back through reuse of the skill... so it is very much an active method of keeping yourself alive and buffed.

 

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Ok, I came up with this idea for Defy:

as currently the ability is channeled, what if it gets reworked to be a duration based ability, and im going to quote a friend words ( "I mean long run wise, his health is restored less and less every time you die, so really you just die for real after getting one shot enough times" ). Basically its defy as it is right now but duration based, so you still get the immortality state that people loves from Wukong, and it won't be a set and forget ability.

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31 minutes ago, FeJoToRe said:

Basically its defy as it is right now but duration based, so you still get the immortality state that people loves from Wukong, and it won't be a set and forget ability.

So every few seconds you double jump and recast? Seems set and forget like the old one. If it's low duration it's just a pain in the ass to play  

Please let invulnerability die.

Just wish armor buff is moved to the passive and defy does something else, so we are not dependent on enemy dmg to get tanky.

 

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1 hour ago, MonkeyKV said:

So every few seconds you double jump and recast? Seems set and forget like the old one. If it's low duration it's just a pain in the ass to play  

Please let invulnerability die.

Just wish armor buff is moved to the passive and defy does something else, so we are not dependent on enemy dmg to get tanky.

 

Fair enough, what should the invisibility on many warframes, or the Invulnerability of Hysteria be replaced with?

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It'd be nice if he'll get two clones instead of one.  I haven't tried Wukong yet, but why have they changed how Defy works when most people build him around that ability?

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Just now, RagingPavillion said:

It'd be nice if he'll get two clones instead of one.  I haven't tried Wukong yet, but why have they changed how Defy works when most people build him around that ability?

Because it was 
A. not interactive - as they said in the workshop it was largely considered a set and forget ability where you could just press 2 and only worry about refreshing it maybe once or twice throughout the mission. Considering the rest of his kit was(or rather currently is) at best lackluster and at worst terrible this being his best ability meant you weren't playing an interesting warframe as much as you were playing a walking weapon. Which while some people found fun almost all can agree is a bad way to design a character.

and B. Wasn't that good all things considered. Yes being immortal in warframe is ok but is far from great. Frames like pre rework zephyr could be almost as immortal as wukong and were considered just as bad. Immortality is almost always worse than a frame being given damage/cc/ or buffs. If you look at a lot of other frames that can be functionally immortal such as inaros rhino and nidus they're considered great because along with their tankiness they have the ability to cc/dps/or buff a team in some manner. The ability to tank is an after thought and isn't something that in the current state of warframe is all that important 

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1 hour ago, toyetic said:

Because it was 
A. not interactive - as they said in the workshop it was largely considered a set and forget ability where you could just press 2 and only worry about refreshing it maybe once or twice throughout the mission. Considering the rest of his kit was(or rather currently is) at best lackluster and at worst terrible this being his best ability meant you weren't playing an interesting warframe as much as you were playing a walking weapon. Which while some people found fun almost all can agree is a bad way to design a character.

and B. Wasn't that good all things considered. Yes being immortal in warframe is ok but is far from great. Frames like pre rework zephyr could be almost as immortal as wukong and were considered just as bad. Immortality is almost always worse than a frame being given damage/cc/ or buffs. If you look at a lot of other frames that can be functionally immortal such as inaros rhino and nidus they're considered great because along with their tankiness they have the ability to cc/dps/or buff a team in some manner. The ability to tank is an after thought and isn't something that in the current state of warframe is all that important 

Considering many mini-bosses or other 'elite enemies' are immune to attack powers, and Valkyr exists - as do invisibility warframes like Ivara - many of our warframes are essentially gun and melee carriers rather than power users. Perhaps it is important to look at what Wukong could do with Defy that Valkyr can not? Wukong could use his ability with a Rage mod or such and his exalted stick or regular melee and guns while keeping up his death defiance on his rather low survival stats warframe otherwise. Those other warframes can be tough, though Rhino there is again more of a hide behind his ability warframe with Iron Skin, Nidus has good innate defense and life, but mostly survives at high levels due to pulling a Trinity link and Parasitic Linking tanky foes.

The logic of low interaction fails when considering any warframe that goes invisible or Valkyr invulnerability on surface checks, so the reasoning has to be deeper and less said.

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1 hour ago, Urlan said:

Considering many mini-bosses or other 'elite enemies' are immune to attack powers, and Valkyr exists - as do invisibility warframes like Ivara - many of our warframes are essentially gun and melee carriers rather than power users.

"Elite enemies" as you put it are only immune to powers that directly deal damage and thats a minority as for the most part frames can still utilize abilities to do damage to boss enemies. Frames like chroma who is the defacto boss killer uses his abilities to kill them efficiently. His buffs also require upkeep and isnt something where you can just press an ability key and not worry about. 

As for frames like valkyr and invisibility frames like ivara, Valkyr's 4 comes with the caveat that you are stuck using her exalted melee. Her immortality is more than just immortality in this case. And before you say she can just shoot in her 4 that was a result of the (relatively) recent melee changes and for the 3+ years valkyr was in the game she couldn't do this so it's likely an unintended consequence that has yet to be properly dealt with rather than an intended feature. As for invisibility frames they use their forms of invisibility as an alternative means of survival considering they have less ehp at base than tanks in the game. These frames also have caveats to their invisibility. Ivara moves slow making it less efficient than using it only when necessary, Ash has a low duration of invisibility meaning it has more upkeep, and octavia not only has buffs that are given to her and teammates aside for invisibility but the invisibility has to be timed with a beat, granted with a song that spams notes this isn't hard to do but takes more effort than using wukongs current defy. Frames that can gain invisibility all have some sort of upkeep that is intended from allow them to just press a button and be functionally immortal aside from loki. And it should be noted loki is from a time when warframes weren't based around original interesting mechanics and along with a majority of the other older frames that are still good (like trinity) are likely to get some looks later down the line. Also saying these frames are gun and melee carriers due to the fact that they can't utilize abilities on mini bosses is false considering ash's 1, ivara's 4, and octavias 1 all do damage to bosses aside from eidolons. Valkyr could also damage bosses with her 4 AND has an attack speed buff. On top of all of that saying that a frame is a set and forget frame because they don't do damage to enemy bosses when 90% of gameplay is against actual enemies and not boss battles makes little sense.

1 hour ago, Urlan said:

Perhaps it is important to look at what Wukong could do with Defy that Valkyr can not? Wukong could use his ability with a Rage mod or such and his exalted stick or regular melee and guns while keeping up his death defiance on his rather low survival stats warframe otherwise. 

Yes he could. I fail to see how this disproves my point that wukong's current defy is a low interaction ability or how abilitys that have low interaction are bad. The thing wukong could do that valkyr cannot is be immortal while using a gun. Valkyr up until fairly recently was stuck using her exalted claws which while did good damage was not very efficient but was interactive and fun for many. Also if you want to take a look at things wukong did that valkyr could not thats a very short list, but switch the comparison and you see how wukong's kit as a whole was non intuitive even compared to a lackluster frame like valkyr. Valkyr has better movement, better buffs, and comparable damage and survivability. Wukong may beat valkyr in tankiness and maybe beats her in damage but as an all around frame valkyr is better.

 

1 hour ago, Urlan said:

Those other warframes can be tough, though Rhino there is again more of a hide behind his ability warframe with Iron Skin, Nidus has good innate defense and life, but mostly survives at high levels due to pulling a Trinity link and Parasitic Linking tanky foes.

Once again these frames also have some interaction and upkeep with their tanky abilites. Rhino's scaling is dependent on the amount of damage he takes when activating iron skin. On top of that with his augment he has to actually interact with enemies by hitting them to build it up to insane levels. On top of that the iron skin will eventually run out and has to be refreshed. While this is comparable to wukong needing to refresh his defy to regain that amount of tankiness rhino needs to hit enemies and take damage again after refreshing to get his iron skin back up the level it was initially at. I'm not saying doing any of these things is hard but they do require some interaction and upkeep. As for nidus his tankiness comes from his ability to build up stacks. Even with your example of parasitic link not only can he not utilize that ability until he's hit enough enemies but he has to continue hitting enemies to be able to continue using the ability. Again i'm not saying this is a hard thing to do but undeniably takes interaction and upkeep.

 

1 hour ago, Urlan said:

The logic of low interaction fails when considering any warframe that goes invisible or Valkyr invulnerability on surface checks, so the reasoning has to be deeper and less said.

The logic of interaction is one of the things that drive DE's warframe reworks and creation. Anyone who plays the game could see this with wisps recent release. All of her abilities are good but utilizes together actively they become great. This shouldn't be news to anyone who's been playing for a while as there have been nerfs because they allowed for afk farming such as banshee's 4 augment nerf and embers 4 nerf. Frames that can go invisible aside from the one made in 2013 before the game had a true identity have some form of upkeep on their invisibility. Frames that are just as if not more tanky than wukong have some sort of upkeep on said tankiness. Interaction is and should be one of the driving reasons behind changes made to warframes as one of the few things almost all of the community can agree on is that afking and doing nothing in warframe is not interesting and lowers player retention

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Posted (edited)

Reading most of the reply, lots of people don't want the passive to only have 3 stacks. 

i still want wokong to use exodia arcanes (and it would be super EZ to implement) I don't think it will happen. 

Also it seem people don't know the lore of wokong so to help put here is some help.

https://youtu.be/61nuXrvqNgI

Edited by (PS4)Omega_Zero_

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I like the rework direction overall but I am not entirely sold on the Defy changes. Reflected damage back to the enemy will not be very useful because enemies tend to have high defenses which also scale up each level while their damage numbers in comparison are much smaller as are Warframe shield and hp pools as well. It will do nothing for Wukong the same way it does nothing for Nyx even though she is able to boost her mind controlled targets greatly and why she is known for her CC, not her damage. Thematically and on paper the idea is cool, but mechanically and functionally it just doesn't work in the current way scaling in the game works. Maybe one day there will be point in reflecting damage back to the enemies but not in the current iteration. Here is hoping for a long needed proper balancing and fine tuning of the game.

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Posted (edited)

I'd rather they make his passive work on a 90 second timer like pheonix renewal than have 3 charges of it. That way it stays consistently useful in endurance runs  especially arbitrations, as well as short missions. It also just feels S#&$ty to have a part of your kit be a completely finite resource. Imagine if nidus could never gain back stacks that he uses when he triggers his passive.

Other than that it depends on the clones AI being capable, and defys nuke being able to actually kill enemies at levels that actually matter, because DE has a bad track record for damage reflection abilities. Look at nyxs rework her 4 is the same concept and it's still complete and utter garbage ability for killing anything 

Edited by Wet_Tenties

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Posted (edited)

This new defy is going to make Wukong way too squishy and tbh i don't think that spamming defy will be that fun gameplaywise nor relevant energywise. He really needed that rework but defy was far from being the power to be entirely reworked/nerfed.

Plus armour only will make us spend too much time in cloud form to get health back since it's his only way to not die now, which is still an awful power so that's it ? We'll have to watch wukong spin around and then watch him in cloud form ? I don't think you'll make Wukong more fun tbh, which is one of his main issue for now. Some frames are using one power to clean the entire map when Wukong will basically have to use two different powers to not die only. Pretty meh if you want my two cents.

And we'll get tons of issue too, clone awful AI, awful retatliation mechanics and what will happen when we'll see nullifiers all around, especially since this clone will definitely not try to avoid them etc.

So far this rework isn't necessarily better and Wukong power are still lacking of interesting synergies. I only see separate active powers that lock him into spinning or clouding animations way too long for too few results. 😕

Edited by 000l000
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6 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

This new defy is going to make Wukong way too squishy and tbh i don't think that spamming defy will be that fun gameplaywise nor relevant energywise.

So don't spam it? We don't know the stats of it, so it's too early to accuse it of being an ability that requires spam.

7 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

make us spend too much time in cloud form to get health back since it's his only way to not die now

Because it provides healing? You're right, we really need other ways of healing ourselves. If only there were arcanes or mods or allies that could do that so that we weren't completely reliant on Cloudwalker. Oh well.

9 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

clone awful AI

Whilst AI is a problem, DE listened and we do actually have some control over the clone, namely you can target an enemy that isn't a nullifier for it to attack, remains to be seen how useful that is ofc.

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Posted (edited)
il y a 36 minutes, DeMonkey a dit :

So don't spam it? We don't know the stats of it, so it's too early to accuse it of being an ability that requires spam.

No offense but active powers are to be spammed, that's how they're designed. So far Wukong needs now two active powers to fully enjoy some tankiness, which is a huge nerf to how he was designed previously. And tbh i don't want to spam two different powers to not die, that's just not fun at all - This resumes half of its new kit, that and clones with dumb AI plus some already existing exalted weapon.

I'm just giving my two cents cause so far DE tends to do the same mistakes even if some feedbacks tell them what's wrong design wise. Wukong really needed to be more fun and i don't see what's funnier in his whole new kit.

Edited by 000l000

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5 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

No offense but active powers are to be spammed, that's how they're designed.

I have genuine concerns about how you play the game.

5 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

And tbh i don't want to spam two different powers to not die, that's just not fun at all

Again, so don't. There are other methods of sustaining your frame.

Stop pretending like you're going to be forced to play a certain way.

6 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

clones with dumb AI

Did you miss the bit where I pointed out we actually have some control over it? Sure the AI will be dumb, but if it decides to charge across the room into a nullifier bubble then that's on you, not the AI.

8 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

and i don't see what's funnier in his whole new kit.

Evidently, your entire post reeks of glass half empty. At least wait until it's released before deciding.

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Posted (edited)
il y a 8 minutes, DeMonkey a dit :

I have genuine concerns about how you play the game.

I would be way more worried about your own cynism than that. No worries i play the game perfectly fine.

Concerning the clones i don't think that most players will spend decades targeting new enemies over and over again. dumb AI is dumb AI. Being arrogant or cynical won't change that unless you're making up your own reality here.

Edited by 000l000
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9 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Concerning the clones i don't think that most players will spend decades targeting new enemies over and over again

But I thought spamming abilities is how you play the game? Tsk tsk.

Also, "so don't". Play however you want. I didn't say you'd have to target new enemies over and over, I was just responding to your comment regarding it running into a nullifier.

If you see it running towards a nullifier, target another enemy and it should target that one instead. Simple af.

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@toyetic The point in general, is that what is non-interactive is essentially no-play between enemies and player. This seems to be a detail you miss, but that is fine. If I am going invulnerable as Valkyr, enemies can not hurt me, there is nothing they can do to me as long as I can kill them first or walk away from them, as I identified in the useful bit you reiterated from my paragraph earlier. If I am invisible, enemies are not fighting me, and I am not getting attacked; and the fight becomes a match between my energy duration and my available energy with a small risk - if I don't bother even pretending to be sneaky - of being seen and shot if I don't pick folk off while invisible not being attacked back, or avoiding them entirely. Wukong is getting damaged, and resisting death with reduced effectiveness each time, now he can do similar to that Valkyr or invisible warframe (which Wukong can sorta do himself admittedly poorly) and assure that he is in a relatively safe spot to toggle his Defy. Same goes for the other examples you missed. Their requirement to interact with the enemies is largely even less than a Wukong and mind that requires Wukong to be picking fights and getting into attrition to care about Defy, otherwise it goes back to the same situation with the invisibility which he can still do to arrange himself for silent take-downs - worse than them but its there - while Valkyr can either just go invulnerable and walk past everything, kill them without much retaliation, or just rely on the fact she has the most innate armor of any warframe. Its not really pertinent to my main point, but it seems to be something you feel is important and it is there for those that need it.

Upkeep, as you said is something built in to Defy, as it reduces the energy return and life returned as we both identify, Wukong like the Valkyr and Ivara example we both used have the same ability to toggle on and off their ability to not be killed and each pay costs for the moves to work at their best. Ivara will usually be using an Augment - Ivara for her spy room easy mode it seems for many - while Valkyr will often but not always have a Rage similar to Wukong toggling out of her move temporarily to easily face tank a second and then get back to the invulnerability - there is very little difference mechanically in these requirements for best usage but in this case, Ivara doesn't need the augment outside of spies while Wukong would be reckless, though not impossible with good Arcane Energize and energy orb maintenance; to go without a Rage or Hunter Adrenaline while Valkyr likes going with Rage she can do the Arcane Energize method even easier than a Wukong with far less risk. I identified weapon availability as a concern here in comparison as Wukong is largely more flexible in what he can do while resisting death and identified that Valkyr now can switch, those this disables her invulnerability while active, it can be handy to rebuild her Energy through Rage or shoot enemies that her powerful claws can not. Wukong does two active drain toggle abilities to do something similar and while it isn't always a problem, the drain can grow to the point in repeated near-death scenario situations to deplete the quickly diminished energy before Rage can recover it. This isn't something Valkyr or Ivara would be worrying about in their situations. Valkyr do to being completely invulnerable and Ivara from not having aggro and picking off enemies without or very little interaction. The costs of this upkeep though can be troubling, Valkyr does increase in drain as her ability is held active, something that was changed to work that way with her last rework, while Wukong's Defy currently does not; though it seems like his Primal Fury will be getting that treatment per this rework if I am reading it properly. These are all toggle abilities, and have the same kind of activation maintenance, just as an Oberon might toggle his Iron Renewal on to heal allies. In this case, the level of interaction and button presses if that is what you consider "upkeep" is largely the same as stated.

Warframes like Rhino and Chroma, while I can understand why you might compare them to Wukong, Valkyr, or Ivara are not really mechanically similar; but rather sharing themes in function here and there. Rhino and Chroma are mostly trying to do some of the same deals; enduring damage but mostly focus on using their weapons or pumping short bursts of stat based resistance. Rhino boosting damage, slowing enemies with stasis stomp, or using Iron skin to essentially block short instances of damage while getting what amounts to overshields before we had overshields to give temporary life and status resistance. Chroma plays this similarly but has direct tricks, and more blunt instrument. Chroma pumps in a very short radius himself and allies with Elemental Ward and Vex armor to enable truly intense levels of armor based damage resist, and weapon based damage but has a toggle based low damage effigy that can stagger or status enemies, mostly acting as a distraction, while lowering Chroma's armor but boosting speed slightly. While Chroma loves Rage/Hunter Adrenaline like Wukong and often Valkyr (some builds totally forgo it of course) he isn't going invulnerable preventing damage outside of armor, or defying death if downed he stays down and without those Vex boosts which are not a toggle, he goes down much the same as any warframe might not using abilities. Rhino still sometimes uses Rage, but due to his trying to prevent himself from taking life damage at all, it doesn't have as much synergy, but can be used on builds that don't utilize Arcane Energize and the Iron Shrapnel augment, essentially working to move between high attrition zones and absorb punishment while dipping in and out of cover with the Rage version. Rhino in particular relies on this as his base stats are actually geared more towards shields and he has innately only average life and around average range of armor. Chroma also have average life, but has more innate armor, though not as high as Valkyr; but relies on those innate stats more without active maxed Vex Refreshes.

Logic is the point of what my little snippet was about, you have existing warframes who have received reworks since; that maintain the same level of interaction or have less, like invisible warframes in general. What you might be thinking of is the term, player involvement. This is the kind of subject that DE Steve brought up when you talk about the internal reasoning for Vivergate, E-Gate, and other "loot cave" nukes. You want the player playing the scenario, whether that be sneaking, punching people in the face and laughing as you refuse to die, or fighting folk and constantly playing a game of trying to heal inbetween Bombard blasts and those constant ability spam nuke warframes like Saryn and Equinox. Each have playstyles that are baked in so to speak, when DE puts together their moveset, that one warframe has a targeted nich or playstyle isn't a problem and didn't officially result in the changing of their abilities or the mission nodes; what did was that players were boiling the matches down to what DE Steve referred to as drinking bird game-play. Similar to Homer using a drinking bird to push his terminal buttons at the nuclear plant in an episode of the Simpsons - his main job boiled down to pushing a button if the plant was experiencing a problem, and the button would help stabilize the plant if pushed during this time, but didn't do much outside of it - the game/power plant plays itself! Or at least that was how it was starting to seem, so it was changed. The problem there was that the players were not being involved in the mission, DE didn't care too much how players were doing it, as long as they were still running around the mission doing the objective and collecting that stuff. When even moving to pickup rewards or capture points wasn't important to the core reason to play those missions, they were changed. AFK timers, line of sight, moves changed to new effects whatever works.

Case in point, many toggle effects disable as do Sentinels assisting the player if the player goes AFK, while non-endless missions will fail after a time if someone doesn't at least move a certain distance or shoot enemies. Wukong's play style pushes to weapon usage while resisting death, and then toggling off when out of combat, much like any protective move while killing primarily through weapons as any warframe might before abilities, which direct damage ability warframes would have to do on Elite enemies or bosses similarly immune or sporting cumulative resistance to such moves. This suggests, as stated before, that Wukong's suggested changes per this thread are not due to a lack of interaction, but rather fears his counters (nullies, comba, isolator bursa, and magnetic damage) are too narrow or that it no longer encourages a playstyle desired; which would necessitate changing Valkyr and many invisible focused warframes to avoid them simply suffering the same.

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I find it a MISSED opportunity if you don't make his 3 Cloud Walker a cloud-like K-DRIVE that provides a speed and evasion buff to him and his allies.

Maybe let him also hover with it above ground up to a certain distance like hyldrin's 4,an effect which could extend to allies and that they can remove it if they wish via bullet jumping or something, though this might conflict with basic K-DRIVE functions, either way works. Allowing for some synergy with his 4 where slam attacks while on the cloud and with his 4 active paralyze/suspend nearby enemies in a mist and charge attacks while on the cloud with his 4 active extends the staff in a super wide sweep attack.

Using Defy while on the cloud could also gain an increased damage boost and range for the sweep attack.

 

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