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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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At this point I'm just not a fan of how the new passive works... having a limited number of uses per mission seems like just a hard cap while a 90-120 second cooldown period would probably be more fair and wouldn't make that passive useless after (somehow) you died all those times.

I remember a time when we had a couple revives per day in warframe... that didn't end well, it feels to me that they're repeating it here. Hopefully they look at it again, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

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58 minutes ago, _Kiro said:

At this point I'm just not a fan of how the new passive works... having a limited number of uses per mission seems like just a hard cap while a 90-120 second cooldown period would probably be more fair and wouldn't make that passive useless after (somehow) you died all those times.

I remember a time when we had a couple revives per day in warframe... that didn't end well, it feels to me that they're repeating it here. Hopefully they look at it again, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

A 90 second cooldown sounds solid, I mean it works for Oberon's augment after all. Good reasoning.

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On 2019-06-16 at 12:57 AM, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

Um, the cloud, while yes, he does technically ride on it and not transform into it, the could is just a reference to his nimbus. Also, the armor buff is nothing without health, and needs survivability so it most definitely fits his kit. The stealth mechanic is just so you can go through doors it's nothing serious, it's just a bonus, it's purely better. 

No the cloud is not a reference to his somersault cloud which he technically does not ride on but uses to somersault off of,  DEMonkey said it references his ability to transform which like I said in another comment above that I could not find any instance in the stories that he explicitly changes into a cloud himself. And yes it is true he needs health but there are ways to get the health back without taking you out of the battle like lifestrike. Plus the heal is not stated what type of heal it is, it could be a heal over time, an instant full heal, or even like the operator arcane the going in and out a few times and you're healed. And yes it is helpful about being able to go through lasers and all and be stealthy, but as a character that is not know for hiding or having to heal because he's immortal I still feel that  this ability does not fit and is still going to just as unfun as hydroids puddle because while it's faster you can still all you can do in that form is float not hack consoles and once you stagger enemies with this ability I'm pretty sure that put's them into a minor alerted state which takes away the ability to use the melee stealth multiplier. I do hope that like  DEMonkey said earlier that he can turn the ability into a transform ability incorporating more of the other 72 earthly transformations that wukong has mastered.

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Just now, (PS4)jman10089 said:

 DEMonkey said it references his ability to transform

No no, I said it references his boots, literally named Cloud walking boots.

My comment regarding him transforming into one was based on what I thought I read, apologies if I was mistaken, but the main point being that in game he actually transforms into a cloud as opposed to riding on or somersaulting with it.

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В 13.06.2019 в 20:38, [DE]SpaceySarah сказал:

Calling all Tenno and Wukong lovers!

Released in 2015, Wukong entered the Arsenal as an homage to Chinese folklore. Since his initial inception, we’ve undergone changes to Melee and beyond which have made this Warframe feel a bit left behind. As highlighted in our latest Devstream, exciting developments are in the works for Wukong - and we are not monkeying around. Read on to see how we plan on making all his abilities a bit more active and meaningful:


Statistic Changes

  • Health will be increased from 100 to 150 (at max rank increased from 300 to 450).
  • Shield will be decreased from 125 to 100 (at max rank decreased from 375 to 300).
    • Why? Since Wukong’s new kit now involves an armour buff, relying more on his health will enable a better synergy.
  • Energy will be increased from 100 to 120 (at max rank 150 to 180).
  • Sprint will be increased from .95 to 1.0.


Celestial Twin

  • Replacing Iron Jab, Celestial Twin will allow for Wukong to shed a part of himself to call a supporting clone into action. The clone will attack from range while Wukong uses melee, or will use melee while Wukong uses range.
  • Press ability again to command Wukong’s clone to attack a specific target with increased damage.
  • Wukong’s clone will remain until it runs out of life.

Reasons for changes: Iron Jab is being replaced as it essentially exists as a weaker version of other powers. Wukong’s Ultimate can fulfill and surpass the role of Iron Jab, while fulfilling more of Wukong’s lore and creating a more powerful, synergized kit.

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Cloud Walker

  • Wukong evaporates into a fast-moving cloud of mist that will temporarily daze and paralyze enemies in his path. While in his cloud of mist, Cloud Walker has the additional mechanic of healing Wukong and his clone.
  • His movement can be interrupted by attacking at any time.
  • Cloud Walker has a much faster cast time which will no longer hold Wukong in place.
  • Wukong will no longer trigger laser traps or doors while using Cloud Walker.
  • Energy cost for Cloud Walker has been lowered.

Reasons for changes: Previously, Cloud Walker did not have many use cases as it was a slower and lesser stealth option than that of other frames. These changes make the Ability good for repositioning, more well-rounded - and WAY faster.

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Defy

  • Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.
  • Based on the amount of damage prevented by Defy, Wukong and his clone will receive a temporary armour buff.
  • Press ability again to trigger spin early.

Reasons for changes: Previously, Defy’s invulnerability was not very interactive. This change features invulnerability while encouraging more tactical, active, and interesting gameplay techniques. As many of us used Defy to be immortal, it simply was too much of a set-it-and-forget it ability. Changing it to still offer invulnerability is important to us, and strengthening the rest of his Abilities makes up for the loss of complete god mode.

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Primal Fury

  • Primal Fury will feature a new specialized and streamlined combo for Wukong’s legendary Iron Staff. As a preview of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system, Wukong’s Primal Fury uses new combo routes with simplified inputs providing a safe, limited space to try out coming releases.
  • Damage for Wukong and his clone is redistributed for a more powerful feel, with a much higher status chance, larger base range, and some slash.
  • Casting no longer holds Wukong in place. With new energy requirements, the cast cost of Primal Fury was lowered but cast drain was increased to be turned off and on as desired.
  • Animation has been trimmed.
  • The range of Wukong’s Iron Staff is always long, comparable to top range Zaws, and no longer needs to build combo to scale range.

Reasons for changes: When Primal Fury was initially used previously, it felt weak due to short range and after some use felt strong. These changes will enable a stronger, more exciting play while featuring a taste of the upcoming Melee 3.0 system.

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Passive

  • 5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.
    1. Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
    2. Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
    3. Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
    4. Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
    5. Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds


Augments

  • Celestial Twin Augment: Replacing Iron Vault, Wukong will command his clone to perform a wide radius slam, suspending enemies.
  • Enveloping Cloud: No planned changes.
  • Primal Rage: Increased cap from 100 to 150%, increased bonus per kill from 10% to 15%. Drain now scales with duration, so the higher Wukong’s duration, the slower it drains, and when Wukong gets a kill the drain stops for 5 seconds.


Right now, Wukong is one of our less utilized Warframes. We hope that these changes will create a more interesting and engaging playing experience for current Wukong mains while helping this trickster find his way into the hearts of future fans. To celebrate the changes, all players who currently own Wukong will receive 3 Forma!

We’re really excited to share these early stages, but keep in mind that everything listed is still subject to change prior to release! Please feel free to share your constructive feedback and thoughts below on the developments coming to The Monkey King. As Lotus once said, “Everybody's got something to hide, Tenno. Except Wukong.”

*Wukong will be disabled in Conclave after his Revisit has launched until the team can properly balance him for the Conclave gamemode.

Please don't change anything, except passive because i think that it should be 5 buffs after taking fatal damage instead of 3 per mission.

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8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No no, I said it references his boots, literally named Cloud walking boots.

My mistake I was trying to go from memory instead of rereading the comment's and ultimately still had to go back and reread. *insert you played yourself meme*

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-06-13 at 6:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Cloud Walker

  • Wukong evaporates into a fast-moving cloud of mist that will temporarily daze and paralyze enemies in his path. While in his cloud of mist, Cloud Walker has the additional mechanic of healing Wukong and his clone.
  • His movement can be interrupted by attacking at any time.
  • Cloud Walker has a much faster cast time which will no longer hold Wukong in place.
  • Wukong will no longer trigger laser traps or doors while using Cloud Walker.
  • Energy cost for Cloud Walker has been lowered.

Reasons for changes: Previously, Cloud Walker did not have many use cases as it was a slower and lesser stealth option than that of other frames. These changes make the Ability good for repositioning, more well-rounded - and WAY faster.

 

-_PDvMf3FVSp_YhqUYjwTYiAHDnOZCJt0esRC0V2

  • Enveloping Cloud: No planned changes.

Just wanted to add some specific feedback regarding Cloud Walker and its augment.

In regards to the ability, can you guys please remove the timer? Having both a drain and a timer on pre-rework CW just made it even less worth using. Remove the timer and reduce the energy cost would be much better. I hope the new Cloud Walker will fast enough that it would be worth using as a means of travel in the Orb Vallis or Plains.

For Enveloping Cloud, please change it so that allies can fire without breaking the stealth. That would make the augment worth a mod slot and perhaps a dedicated build for squads. I can see how Wukong would be a good choice for late game squad-missions with this augment.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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Posted (edited)

As a Wukong main, I'm not really sure how I feel about these changes. I'm not really sure what DE is trying to do, as some of these changes seem to be a step forward, however some of them seem to be regressing, a step backwards. Of course, I can't say much as the changes aren't released yet and are still a work in progress, but these are just my initial impressions. 

First of all, I think DE needs to make a test server to gather some real feedback and opinions on these changes, and whether they work well or not. It would help in regards to tweaking and bug squashing as well as to gather the community's opinions in addition to their own. It'd give players the option to test out new/reworked content, and I'm sure that'd make players happy, a win-win situation for both parties. It'd also prevent to an extent issues that have come up previously with reworked frames, issues that I'd say could of been easily fixed had they gathered this feedback beforehand.

Celestial twin is a nice addition. I'm happy they changed his iron jab and are trying out something new, that fits both lore wise as well as having been requested by players before. Whether or not the Clone AI is any good or not is yet to be determined, my personal opinion in regards to spectre ai isn't very good initially, but hopefully that's not the case.

Cloud Walker. Just why, honestly? Yes, DE fixed some of the issues players had complained about, mainly the speed, but why not just ultimately decide on a new ability entirely like Celestial twin? Currently cloud walker serves niche purposes, and even the proposed rework right now seems honestly pointless. There's still practically no use for the ability, it's got extremely niche uses even now. Some of the complaints about it is you're stuck in a cloud literally not able to do anything, whilst really, I could either pull out my gun/sword and kill enemies being more productive than hovering in a cloud being useless effectively. A waste of time really, where I'm unable to do anything. Sure yes, I can jump out now of it by attacking but what's the point? Why even have it up in the first place? I honestly think they need to just pick a new ability like they did for his 1. 

(Also, I could just bullet jump, parkour to get around like I've already been doing that doesn't consume any energy whilst also being able to attack...)
(Triggering laser traps and doors? Not really all that game changing, maybe for spy, but there's some seriously better frames you probably SHOULD take...)

Defy. Can we get some more additional information like numbers on these changes? Potentially some more indepth gameplay of his abilities in actual content? Just how much armour percentage buff are we getting and for what duration is it going to last for? If it's too low of a number of armor percentage or vice versa with duration times, then Wukongs literally going to die to a papercut, especially in the case of higher level content and scaling.This also applies to the damage reflect. What percentage of damage will it reflect? What's the range of the melee staff spin? If it somehow doesn't hit anything, does that mean I've effectively wasted my "stored" damage and need to recharge again? Etc, so many questions...

(You know, there's this frame called Rhino and his Iron Skin more or less does the exact same thing as defy currently. Pretty much same concept but whatever. Of course breaking iron skin is a joke )
(In addition to that there's also frames like Inaros, etc that still do a similar role/concept)

Primal Fury. I'll keep it short. Whilst I like the ability in general, I don't really see a point of using it apart from a few laughs. Exalted weapons are outshined by zaws in general. Why would I waste my energy and whatnot on using my "ultimate" when I could use my melee/zaw? (Also, in all seriousness, how does a stick do slash damage?)

Passives. This is going seriously backwards in progress. Why should any of his passives be RNG dependant, in addition to only being able to use 3 of his abilities out of the 5 he posses? In addition, why is it only limited to 3 times in a mission? I mean, in all honestly, that's 3 minutes worth of buffs the entire mission duration at best. Let's assume that RNG gives me 3 cosmic armour's. That's 90 seconds of invulnerability (not including the initial 2 seconds) the entire mission duration. That's pretty pathetic, especially if you're in a long mission like survival or whatnot... 

(In addition, whilst players won't be intentionally killing themselves for the limited buff, at least I hope not, you never know... In all seriousness, I don't really see why the buff only takes effect on "death". It's not like people will intentionally die, but it's still a sour taste to know you have to die to even get the passive buffs to activate...)

 

I really hope DE shows some indepth gameplay with Wukong and hopefully takes into consideration players thoughts, suggestions, criticisms and feedback whilst tweaking and working on Wukong.

Of course I'll have to wait until the actual release to know anything, but as I said before, these are just my impressions.

Edited by Fangerzz
Fixed the blank space of nothing...

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The rework is looking good! I have one issue though... the passive can expire? This would be unfair for Wukong; he would 1) be the only Warframe that loses its passive after too many uses and 2) there is Nidus that has a similar passive, but can recharge its effectiveness after just a few stomps to a mob.

I think instead of giving him only three death-cheats, it should be a cooldown for at least 2-3 minutes.

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16 hours ago, Urlan said:

Fair enough, what should the invisibility on many warframes, or the Invulnerability of Hysteria be replaced with?

Discussion for another topic. Feel free to start one, I do not care for those frames. Always found invisibility that doesn't break when you attack to be the absolute cheese. If at least you had to stay within smoke clouds AOE or had to do something to keep it. Anyways I don't play those frames, and bad designs on other frames do not justify keeping invulnerability/immortality on wukong.

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17 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Discussion for another topic. Feel free to start one, I do not care for those frames. Always found invisibility that doesn't break when you attack to be the absolute cheese. If at least you had to stay within smoke clouds AOE or had to do something to keep it. Anyways I don't play those frames, and bad designs on other frames do not justify keeping invulnerability/immortality on wukong.

I think its fair to not really care for some frames over others, but I think its quite valid to compare warframes that had reworks recently or simply have similar levels of mission interaction.

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22 minutes ago, Urlan said:

I think its quite valid to compare warframes that had reworks recently or simply have similar levels of mission interaction

Having similar interactions don't necessarily means it's good. They are moving away from invulnerability and there's a reason for it. It's a complete braindead mechanic, specially when the game hardly has any difficult content in it.

I wonder what are people struggling with that they want a godmode on so they can complete it.

Yes I think hysteria should be different as with the invisible mechanic on some frames. Just because those still have those doesn't mean I want wukong to have them. 

Depending on the armor buff he won't need it anyways (never needed it before, a umbral build with arcanes makes him tanky enough for all content), I'm just hoping for a better passive that doesn't incentive us to kill ourselves and is spent. %armor buff on death cheat so it combos with defy armor buff, making you more tanky as you die more and more.

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Just now, MonkeyKV said:

Having similar interactions don't necessarily means it's good. They are moving away from invulnerability and there's a reason for it. It's a complete braindead mechanic, specially when the game hardly has any difficult content in it.

I wonder what are people struggling with that they want a godmode on so they can complete it.

Yes I think hysteria should be different as with the invisible mechanic on some frames. Just because those still have those doesn't mean I want wukong to have them. 

Depending on the armor buff he won't need it anyways (never needed it before, a umbral build with arcanes makes him tanky enough for all content), I'm just hoping for a better passive that doesn't incentive us to kill ourselves and is spent. %armor buff on death cheat so it combos with defy armor buff, making you more tanky as you die more and more.

I didn't see Hysteria remove from Valkyr during her rework, nor do I see warframes losing invisibility, including with Wukong here. So that statement isn't based in former or current events; DE could state that is the intent going forward starting here, that would have quite the feedback spike on the forum! I can totally feel you on personal calls here, and they are perfectly valid for how you would prefer the game go, or how you think the winds are moving, but that doesn't mean its logically shown here. If you would want more chance of death with Defy while keeping it as it was, Quick Thinking has examples of making it less reliable as it repeatedly triggers for overkill damage for example.

I can understand situations where Godmode, as you put it; might be required in the current enemy balance situation. Take for example getting hit by the rapid fire laser shot from the Ropalolyst in the central arena area of its boss encounter. Any enemies with elemental or physical enhancements - particularly corrosive, radiation, and puncture - can one-shot any warframe playing normally outside of what some might call 'cheesing' or ie, playing either around the scenario mechanic limits or avoiding the enemy interaction entirely, as with Riftwalk, invisibility, Valkyr Hysteria, or other invulnerability or complete avoidance mechanics. Pure Crowd control could also fit into this category, as DE has at least considered it, per changes to enemies with Trials, giving them cumulative resistance to powers; and more recently with pure immunity most but a select subsection of power and statuses!

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6 minutes ago, Urlan said:

can understand situations where Godmode, as you put it; might be required in the current enemy balance situation

My experience with the ropololyst is short, RNG was on my side and I farmed the mods and wisp absurdly quickly, but I actually enjoyed the boss and specially the laser you mention. It's the first time you actually have to dodge a boss hit instead of just bringing a tank and facetanking everything.

Yes in general personal feelings dictates much of what I said, but I think powercreep has gotten to the point of not having challenge anymore. Invulnerability is the most extreme case. We are giving a staff slashing damage for the sake of effectiveness instead of fixing the IPS and enemy scaling. 

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We will be going live shortly to review this on our Test Cluster:

 

 

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We will be going live shortly to review this on our Test Cluster:

 

happy and boastful Wukong noises 

Edited by Sajochi

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9 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We will be going live shortly to review this on our Test Cluster:

If all goes well, how close do you think you are to a release?

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Posted (edited)

Wanted to ask the same as Monkey, do you guys have an estimate regarding combo and Wukong rework shipping? Or too early to want to venture?

EDIT: So this week...

I wonder if they decided to get Monkey'd rather than Rubble'd for the next gilded warrior...

Edited by NightmareT12

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Just now, MonkeyKV said:

My experience with the ropololyst is short, RNG was on my side and I farmed the mods and wisp absurdly quickly, but I actually enjoyed the boss and specially the laser you mention. It's the first time you actually have to dodge a boss hit instead of just bringing a tank and facetanking everything.

Yes in general personal feelings dictates much of what I said, but I think powercreep has gotten to the point of not having challenge anymore. Invulnerability is the most extreme case. We are giving a staff slashing damage for the sake of effectiveness instead of fixing the IPS and enemy scaling. 

That is all good, I am glad RNG was on your side truly. I got the parts myself as well but for me every moment of it was just running it out of stubbornness instead of fun due to my first encounter being something of a "Wtf" one touch being capable of downing my Oberon modded for armor, life, and Phoenix renewal while being perfectly capable of firing those things rapid fire during the cinematic - which was embarrassing for my pride there to be honest! I use it as an excellent example of an attack or challenge for a player being scaled way outside the reasonable level - I figure accidentally to be fair - the heavy focused laser the Ropalolyst does when you are on the Generator platforms does far less damage if you face tank it, though it hurts pretty well for the level. I know this is sorta sliding into off topic here about that, but testing how much damage, it seemed to be at least 15k per rapid fire laser!

Powercreep isn't really the issue for most gear in the game, at least on the player side, as we do plateau rather quickly. One could say though, that if we do have fully ranked mods and reactor/Catalyst, forma to fit those mods that we are often going to be stronger than the starchart except in endless missions, particularly in nightmare or t4 Void due to their innate nightmare damage boosts. Enemies scaling goes like leveling in an rpg, but unlike ours, doesn't have as early a wall. Powercreep in the specific sense is more akin to getting a prime for a regular piece of gear, or the same weapon stats and firing mode but just a better attribute or stats; to use a Magic the Gathering analogue, a Grizzly Bear is strictly worse than a Nest Invader as long as Creature type is not an issue like with tribal themed decks. Are we stronger than when the game started? Of course, the game has grown, and when a game grows, the players have more options and have progression (for us that is embodied by getting improved versions if only slight of existing gear; improved mods (primes or Umbra for example); and Focus/amps for the Tenno. Conditional though not true progression can also help us go farther than previously possible. That is not innately powercreep, not innate to a healthy game system with progression elements.

Fixing IPS was a muddled kettle of fish to pardon the phrase; as we saw with the workshop thread before Khora was originally supposed to ship. Status 2.5 was going to be a pure nerf to slash damage, while making Puncture have to build up to reducing the enemy damage (10%, 20%, 30%, upwards) and Impact would have depending on the level of base impact either staggered, knocked down, or pure out and out ragdolled enemies which per example would have been if you used a high impact sniper thus making it actually harder to land repeated sniper head-shots with that gun if it had status! I figure the idea will be ironed out eventually, but that was the at the time presentable version, much like with Wukong in this very thread.

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@[DE]Pablo I know I offered to bribe you with my original pokemon card stash in my thread several months ago, I hope you aren't planning on taking me up on that offer.

I'm liking the looks so far, the cloud speed looks faster than bullet jumping (as it should be).

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Seems to look a lot like some of the Ash rework suggestions @Nazrethimm had a while back. Particularly the one that had Smoke giving bonuses like healing or damage; and markers ordering Ash's specters which would have been specter clones versus just being attacks like prior and before. Defy's replacement didn't seem particularly functional as far as I could tell from the video feed I am afraid, but I wouldn't mind seeing stats for how it converts, ranges, and such though personally I am not optimistic in it finding a solid role in Wukong's kit; I wouldn't mind seeing more selling points.

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The description provided by Pablo for the combo system streamlining sounds like a huge nerf in damage if you only get the multiplier in 1 combo.

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Well, I'm excited to play that. Main criticism for me right now is that not moving combos are... kinda counter intuitive.

The slam combo that I adore has tragically tiny range and will stagger enemies backwards. In order to ensure they're hit reliably by the actual weapon you kinda need to be moving. It's currently possible to even throw in a slide mid slam to close the distance. Having to stop moving to initiate will likely kill quite a bit of the flow.

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5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The description provided by Pablo for the combo system streamlining sounds like a huge nerf in damage if you only get the multiplier in 1 combo.

That is a good point. The dev workshop post mentions this is being used as something of a test bed for melee 3.0 so that would suggest such changes might be for all melee if successfully accepted.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We will be going live shortly to review this on our Test Cluster:

 

Leave the video up, that way everyone who missed it can see it

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