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Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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Le 13/06/2019 à 19:59, Kylo. a dit :

Sounds good, better at least.

The passive RNG is dumb in my opinion though, nobody wants RNG while loading into a mission. 

Will see how it plays out.

Avoiding death is not RNG, RNG is the bonus

The passive seems pretty powerful actually

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Meh, I disagreed with the justification for the passive. Either putting it on an oberon-style wait timer, or linking it with having a living clone that would die in your place, would be better options that would remain useful for the entirety of endless missions, rather than being a finite resource of a passive that disappears after 3 "deaths."

His level of self-revive is found on Nidus and effectively on other frames, that keep them functionally immortal. Wukong has lost that part of his lore because it was set and forget it? Why not simply add some mechanic to sustaining it, rather than removing it entirely? (as pointed out above, clone management to keep it alive to keep you alive, or even just kills with Primal Fury, or a counter that collects damage taken through defy, or regained through cloudwalking, to fulfill a quota to restore one charge of immortality).

There are so many options that keep that aspect of the character in tact, while adding more interactivity... it boggles the mind why they'd just delete it like that (at least for the reasons they gave...  unless they're not the real reasons, and other methods of self-revive will also be disappearing from the game now in future nerfs and this is just the first.)

 

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40 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Meh, I disagreed with the justification for the passive. Either putting it on an oberon-style wait timer, or linking it with having a living clone that would die in your place, would be better options that would remain useful for the entirety of endless missions, rather than being a finite resource of a passive that disappears after 3 "deaths."

His level of self-revive is found on Nidus and effectively on other frames, that keep them functionally immortal. Wukong has lost that part of his lore because it was set and forget it? Why not simply add some mechanic to sustaining it, rather than removing it entirely? (as pointed out above, clone management to keep it alive to keep you alive, or even just kills with Primal Fury, or a counter that collects damage taken through defy, or regained through cloudwalking, to fulfill a quota to restore one charge of immortality).

There are so many options that keep that aspect of the character in tact, while adding more interactivity... it boggles the mind why they'd just delete it like that (at least for the reasons they gave...  unless they're not the real reasons, and other methods of self-revive will also be disappearing from the game now in future nerfs and this is just the first.)

 

I get you, like how Khora can do a Phoenix renewal as long as Venari takes the being killed in her place with that augment, and her kills recharge the cooldown. Good idea!

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14 hours ago, Tzarl said:

In the dev workshop they cover this, they mention that both Wukongs will use the same weapon.

Did not see that part, thank you

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To be honest I still am a bit uncertain this rework will even make people, who never had an interest, pick wukong up and play him more than a week.

They took out the first skill which is great, his defy was basically set-and-forget (so according to DE logic it gets nuked) but replaced it with a counter like Nyx's 4, I'm actually pleased with cloudwalker even if slightly since it seemed to be a faster and more mobile movement and his 4 seems less clunky.

I still don't like the passive no matter how anybody tries to justify it, if the point is to avoid death and get buffs, then I'd rather see it gone and be given a melee focused passive like old combo counter one cuz I'm not supposed to die anyway. I just don't see how a finite number can be remotely good when Nidus is a thing.

A recharge mechanic or a cooldown would actually give it some logic. Then ya see a loot dropping buff on that list of random possible bonuses ya get when ya die and I just can't make heads or tails on why I'd ever want that if I survived something that could kill my Wukong...

But at this point I'm ranting for the sake of it. I'm just not seeing this rework as much of an improvement but more of a side grade... but it's cool if people like it I guess.

 

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Posted (edited)

Very hyped by this rework. I can't wait to try it.

My only problem is with the passive: the fact that it's limited to 3 times per mission means it will be useless at some point in hard missions and long missions, when we really need it.

I would highly prefer a cooldown for his "levels of Immortality" => similarly to Phoenix Renewal: after undying, we have a period during which we cannot escape death if we take fatal damage.

This wouldn't render the passive null after some point, and would require us to be more careful when we are in the cooldown period (even in "not so hard" missions). I feel this would be way more interesting, gameplay-wise.

Edited by Yaerion
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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Yaerion:

I would highly prefer a cooldown for his "levels of Immortality" => similarly to Phoenix Renewal: after undying, we have a period during which we cannot escape death if we take fatal damage.

This wouldn't render the passive null after some point, and would require us to be more careful when we are in the cooldown period (even in "not so hard" missions). I feel this is more interesting, gameplay-wise.

Interesting idea. While his passive is on CD, his other abilities do get buffed slightly to make up for his vulnerability during this period. Or an Augment which enables this kind of mechanic.

Would make it engaging, interesting and rewarding. And somewhat reflect him being a smart ass monkey god.

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I am one of those who get hyped by this rework. The only thing I don't like is the passive. I just hate the feeling that you could run out of PASSIVE. Please change it to be rechargeable. I think a 5min cooling down or even longer would be very acceptable. I am not saying that this passive is not strong enough. It just feels wrong and imperfect, not matter it's 3-times revival or 1000-times revival. A passive should always be there.

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On 2019-06-13 at 9:39 PM, DeMonkey said:

Buffing it's damage, status chance and giving it slash damage makes absolutely no sense to me to be honest. It does more than enough damage already, and how exactly is a stick going to do slash damage?

Adding blades on the sides of the staff like on a mace.

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On 2019-06-13 at 9:01 PM, moostar95 said:

good, many of us can enjoy playing what we want. I'm getting getting tried of people S#&$ing over frames I like because they're aren't nukers or that they have preferences so high they're ok with removing frames from the game because they don't like them.  If I was S#&$ting over saryn/mesa and asked them to be removed. people would be salty. people want to have hildryn removed, everyone is ok with that but me.  Also hildryn does more then nuke with her one. she buffs teams, tanks, cc and gives energy.

Hildryn is insanely good and fun to play, people just have no idea.

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10 minutes ago, Biosko said:

Adding blades on the sides of the staff like on a mace.

That hasn't happened though.

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Will there be a method to immediately end the clone, without  generating a new one and what are the consequences... such as cool down, duration? If you choose from a limited  weapon arrangement, such as a sortie requirement how will that proceed. Could the clone be used as a teleport ability, if not, could it be rigged to do so, at least for an an 'unstuck situation, whereas currently an operator and often unstuck itself cannot resolve. I scanned the above for duplicity and could not connect during the event, i will also be gone for a day, so I just wanted to have my say. I appreciate the homage but I hope that it is not a limitation on a power kit.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)jockhotty said:

Will there be a method to immediately end the clone, without  generating a new one

Hold #1 if you don't have the augment. If you do have the augment then you can't get rid of him, as holding #1 performs the slam.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)jockhotty said:

what are the consequences

Consequences? You have to recast.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)jockhotty said:

If you choose from a limited  weapon arrangement, such as a sortie requirement how will that proceed.

The exact same way it will in a mission if you were to only equip a single weapon. You both have that weapon.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)jockhotty said:

I scanned the above for duplicity and could not connect during the event

Spoiler

nick-young-confused-face-300x256-nqlyaa.

 

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I'm still so annoyed that there was no talk or anything on why the 3 augment wasn't touched. I'm liking the rework, just feel like his 3 augment could have easily been brought to give either the "improved invisibility" of the other stealth frames or given his allies a damage mitigation buff or have it give a weaker radial blind

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I rarely play Wukong, but the rework seems pretty good overall. 

It look like most people are concerned about his new passive. However, my main complaint is the 1500 armor cap on defy. Sure, 1500 armor + invisibility and heal from his cloud is more than enough to survive 99% of normal content in warframe. But at some point, one shot deaths become a issue.

Right now, most strategies to survive higher levels on endurance runs involve mostly invisibility or some kind of invulverability. So, if Wukong could have scaling armor on defy, without a cap, it would be a different tactic to survive on endurance runs. Basically, Wukong would always have enough armor to survive regardless of enemy level, assuming the player uses Defy wisely.

 

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10 minutes ago, Agropeu said:

one shot deaths become a issue.

Disagree on principle. One shot deaths happen at levels far beyond anything the game is balanced around. The whole point of increasing enemy levels is to eventually make them so tough we can't keep fighting. If we have scaling damage and scaling tanking we might as well do away with enemy levels altogether and just fight level 1 enemies all day.

There has to be an upper limit to what we're designed to fight, if we can push past that then great, if not then it's not an issue.

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19 hours ago, SecretDragoon said:

I will never play this game again due to the changes to Defy.

Have a nice day ^.^.

We don't want players like you in Warframe anyways. See ya 🙂

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I am excited for all the coming changes to wukong with one exception. the passive, while i love the idea of it, the finite 3 times defy is going to  make me not want to play him on endurance runs, or even arbitration for that matter.

 

My solution to this, while keeping in mind that you don't want people killing themselves for random buffs, is to put a timer per passive and have them regenerate over time, so lets say 1 charge of passive per 5mins or even better, make it work like venari bodyguard where kills reduce the timer. I just dont want him to only have a passive for his 1st life of potentially 5 revives(with arcane revives)

 

Other than that, its looking really fun and I cant wait to try him and his melee changes out! 

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6 hours ago, 1thurts said:

I am one of those who get hyped by this rework. The only thing I don't like is the passive. I just hate the feeling that you could run out of PASSIVE. Please change it to be rechargeable. I think a 5min cooling down or even longer would be very acceptable. I am not saying that this passive is not strong enough. It just feels wrong and imperfect, not matter it's 3-times revival or 1000-times revival. A passive should always be there.

Yes you are 100% 

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I may have miseed it if it was already answered so apologies : What happens for the clone if you don't have a melee equipped ? (or reciprocally if you don't have a primary nor secondary)

 

cheers !

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I'm super excited for this. I love the Wukong myth and have always been disappointed with how ineffective Wukong was compared to other frames.  

Passive: I think the passive is fine. No complaints. I think the random nature suits Wukong. I totally understand it's limitation, and it feels on flavor.

Wuclone: my only feedback here is that i wish pressing 1 again while he was out switch teleported you with him instead of made him focus. I'm never not 1-Shotting things so a targeted damage ability isn't useful against 99% of enemies and my guess is the 1% it would be useful against (stalker/wolf) it won't work on. A switch teleport would be a lot more fun and more on flavor.

Defy: looks perfect. I saw that it taunts, that's the only thing i was worried about but that's perfect. I love that your clone does it to. 

Cloudwalker: I love the changes to Cloudwalker the only thing i think should change is that shooting shouldn't break the augment. That makes it almost useless. Cloaking a team who are actively engaging means 99% of the time they will break the cloak instantly on accident just by having been pressing the trigger when it activated. I just don't see how that augment is supposed to be useful in any circumstance. 

Ult: Love the 4. Feels on flavor. Combos look good. Love that your clone gets the weapon too. 

I do have a couple of questions.

1. Will the Wuclone deal normal damage to Stalker/Wolf and other "ability damage immune" enemies?

2. Is it possible to get the Wuclone to use your secondary while you use your primary?

3. How does Wuclone decide which fire mode to use on things like the Fulmin?

4. Is the Wuclone affected by Dragon Keys the player is carrying? 

5. Will the Wuclone Target weakspots like the Lephantis heads while they are targetable?

6. Can Wuclone receive buffs like Rhino Roar and the like, and does it copy your buffs when you cast it?

 

 

 

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The passive sounds nice but the RNG factor isn't really that appealing, I would like to control what buffs I can have and which ones I can't have. The Celestial Twin augment is pretty interesting though! 

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5 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Disagree on principle. One shot deaths happen at levels far beyond anything the game is balanced around. The whole point of increasing enemy levels is to eventually make them so tough we can't keep fighting. If we have scaling damage and scaling tanking we might as well do away with enemy levels altogether and just fight level 1 enemies all day.

There has to be an upper limit to what we're designed to fight, if we can push past that then great, if not then it's not an issue.

True. Even Inaros would eventually fall to the games scaling. So no frame is truly invincible in the long run.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Disagree on principle. One shot deaths happen at levels far beyond anything the game is balanced around. The whole point of increasing enemy levels is to eventually make them so tough we can't keep fighting. If we have scaling damage and scaling tanking we might as well do away with enemy levels altogether and just fight level 1 enemies all day.

There has to be an upper limit to what we're designed to fight, if we can push past that then great, if not then it's not an issue.

It's not scaling damage, despite the damage absorbtion multiplier. People are mistaken on this similar to Octavia. Enemy damage scales slower than enemy health in endurance runs. And that's before something like enemy armor or shields are even factored in as well.

The closest thing to scaling damage are status procs (with some single-target exceptions). To last in endurance runs it requires teamwork. There is no going forever because eventually people have to sleep, use the restroom, ect and unless you're playing solo you can't pause the game. That and requiring at least another frame are the ONLY reasons you can't go forever. A frost or Limbo in defense would theoretically protect a pod forever IF it didn't have to actually kill enemies. Equinox can nuke scaling damage IF 3 to 4 corrosive projections are stripping all armor (or shield disruptions for Corpus), but can't survive one-shots from the increased enemy speed and damage. Nor can it protect a defense pod at those levels. 

Wukong won't actually bring any of that to the table. A simple tweak to the new Defy could help since the new Cloud Walker can already be interrupted. Allow Defy to be interrupted by Cloud Walker. Simple. At least Cloud Walker can still bring some cc to an endurance run (and possibly finishers?) if that's the case, without getting one-shot as the Last Immortal. 85% damage reduction isn't impressive to people who like to do endurance runs and not just clear the starchart. And yes, DE does design at these levels hence the bug fix to Ivara to keep her from soloing wave 565 Hydron. Their intention is if you want to do something even similar you'll need to do it with teamwork.

Edited by AntiMomentum

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