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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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I don't play Wukong much but I'm keen to give the new version a try.

I think to keep with the Monkey King theme it would be good to have a bit more mobility - maybe 25% extra jump distance, 25% more wall latch, and maybe able to do 2 double jumps.

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I'm gonna put my opinions on this.
Haven't played Wukong much but i've mastery ranked him and some more.

Power 1.
Good riddance, the crappy bolt spell was worthless and just to fill a power slot, this power seems more fun and interesting.

Power 2.
The cloud was freakishly slow, so a speed buff is welcome. The other things mostly feel like things that was forgotten initially and/or new objects and tilesets interact in unexpected ways.

Power 3.
I barely used it before. Apparently it's wukongs best ability but i never used it. Mostly since it ATE energy.
I am a bit 'eh' on the whole timing abilities to soak damage idea, but some people like such abilities so this ability simply isn't for me.

Power 4.
I like running around with the silly staff and whack people, but it had very little range and doesn't do much damage anymore. So the longer range and better damage scaling sounds good to me.

Passive.
I am cloven on the passive. On one hand it is a fun ability which adds survivability without adding invulnerability. So that's a good thing.
On the other, a passive that is activated only when you die. Seems counter intuitive, especially since Wukong will have decent defensive stats and an immortality power.
So if one builds even a decent build one will be difficult to take down with Wukong, which works against the whole getting buffs from dying.
But the passive isn't really meant to be the dealbreaker of the frame so i won't diss it completely like some other. I however think DE should consider the power again and decide upon changing it or not.

The old passive was crappy in comparrisson to this though, so this one is way more interesting.

Augments.
Sadly i didn't get into the augments so i have no worthwhile input on them.


One thing i am a bit iffy on is the whole toggle ability idea. Many toggled abilities are just not worth it because of their high cost and those that are worth it often suffer compared to other frames who just have activate abilities.
Not to mention how much better a gun can be compared to Wukong trying to smash his enemies with his staff.

 

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Posted (edited)

Not really a Wukong user, but from the 100+ hours spent with him (Loki scrub here, FYI)

Passive: Well, the passive should never be RNG-based in the first place. Imagine rolling a 4x orb booster or item booster during E/SO. There should be a way of sorts to trigger what.

Celestial Twin: Just make a proper AI and we should be fine. Off topic: Umbra, duality, specters, etc."Tagging" a target sounds good for killing high priority mobs assuming said clone can survive.

Cloud Walker: Was a panic button. Still a panic button.

Defy: RIP immortality. Would suggest damage reduction honestly over armor. Otherwise, welcome change.

Primal Fury: More range is always nice. Being able to "pick your attacks" is awesome. Good change.

Augments: Not gonna touch on the matter. Majority of augments don't fit in/gimmick.

Edited by p3z1
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Something tells me that 1500 armour for Defy isn't going to be enough and will have the same issue as Atlas. For something that is time based it should be capped way higher. 

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5 hours ago, AntiMomentum said:

It's not scaling damage, despite the damage absorbtion multiplier. People are mistaken on this similar to Octavia.

You're mistaken in assuming I'm referring to Defy, I was in fact referring to the game as a whole.

5 hours ago, AntiMomentum said:

And yes, DE does design at these levels hence the bug fix to Ivara to keep her from soloing wave 565 Hydron

That's not "designing the game at that level", that's fixing a bug.

Come on...

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Posted (edited)

I feel like it'd be great if Wukong could somehow do a difficult task to regain a charge on his revives, since 3 for a single mission seems a bit limiting when some missions may go longer, and ik DE doesn't like when players go super long like in survival but there are some players who do play like that (me), especially because certain survival missions reward you immensely with constant radiant relics every 5 minutes once you go past 80+ minutes.

So maybe give him some way to regain revives, but with extremely hard tasks, such as kill 750 enemies or kill 100 eximus's, or sustain 200,000 damage from enemies. You could even make it RNG to spice it up, since the passive is sort of RNG based rn anyway.

Edited by birdobash

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1 hour ago, birdobash said:

I feel like it'd be great if Wukong could somehow do a difficult task to regain a charge on his revives, since 3 for a single mission seems a bit limiting when some missions may go longer, and ik DE doesn't like when players go super long like in survival but there are some players who do play like that (me), especially because certain survival missions reward you immensely with constant radiant relics every 5 minutes once you go past 80+ minutes.

So maybe give him some way to regain revives, but with extremely hard tasks, such as kill 750 enemies or kill 100 eximus's, or sustain 200,000 damage from enemies. You could even make it RNG to spice it up, since the passive is sort of RNG based rn anyway.

To wit, it could just be duration based, as with Phoenix Renewal, or Khora's Venari Bodyguard, that give a long cooldown, that is quickly diminished for each kill Khora does during the cooldown.

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I love his theme and style, but never really got all that into the Defy build, so I really like what I've seen of the new Wukong.  All of the ability changes seem to be pretty good.  I'm mildly concerned that there'll be some consistency issues with Defy, but at the same time, it doesn't have a cooldown and the only time you'd need the max armor reduction is when you can pretty easily get it, so as long as the energy economy isn't a huge issue it shouldn't be a significant problem.  Only way to tell would be to try it though.

That said, I'm not a fan of the passive.  I like it on a theoretical level, it fits quite well thematically, but the core mechanic leans far too heavily into RNG IMO.  It ranges from amazing to completely worthless, without much in the way of middle ground, and that just doesn't sit right with me.  I'd much prefer instead something with more consistency, and I'd gladly sacrifice the potential highs for it.

And really, the perfect solution is right there.  All it'd take is to ditch the buffs entirely and replace it with something like "If Wukong dies with a Wuclone active, the Wuclone swaps location and health values with Wukong, up to Wukong's maximum health.  Afterwards, Celestial Twin cannot be used for 20 seconds."

Basically, make it so that Wukong can't die if he has a clone up, as the clone would swap places with him and take the hit instead, but then leave Wukong vulnerable until the cooldown's finished.  Doubly so since it would drop Wukong at wherever the clone was, which could very easily be elbow deep in a big pile of enemies.

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So, I didn't notice them trying the wuclone with a specter, can we just make sure it's possible, cause I want that, so bad. A specter that gives a second specter f yes please.

The reason that would not be possible is pretty clear though, player gets a clone, specter gets a clone, times 4 players, that's a lot of monkeys. But c'mon give us this. Give me a squad of 16 monkeys.

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1 hour ago, Agayek said:

Basically, make it so that Wukong can't die if he has a clone up, as the clone would swap places with him and take the hit instead, but then leave Wukong vulnerable until the cooldown's finished.  Doubly so since it would drop Wukong at wherever the clone was, which could very easily be elbow deep in a big pile of enemies.

This, this is a great idea.

As for the buffs themselves i will give each a thought. Trying to be objective about them.

Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
This one has potential, but not all builds are elemental builds, so while it will potentially be awesome, it can also be a blank lottery scratch and most of all, you probably won't notice this power if you are elbow deep in enemies.

Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
This one will be noticed for sure, but two questions. Will the invisibility stop for some circumstances? Like attacks or damage? Will the clone be invisible? I'd say the clone should also be invisible for the duration.

Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
This one is powerful, probably the best. It should have some sort of good particle effect/coat on Wukong though.

Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
This one is fun but is it really any good? Extra also sounds veeeery vague. How much extra? 10%? 100%? 1000%? Every enemy killed automatically trigger loot drop? Will it be their usual loot or from a special Wukong drops list?
I'd say it should be a lot, probably even automatic loot drop. It should also be from their usual list to make wukong potentially good for farming stuff. This will also need a good effect to show it is active, i suggest a nice constant drumroll with sparks that swirl happily around, yellow as standard. Perhaps coin plinking sounds thrown in.

Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds
This one honestly feel Meh. On its own it feels like the biggest blank of them all. Sure one likes a lot of energy, but after 2-3 orbs energy is full and you already get up with a lot of HP so the health orb will be redundant as well.
I'd say give some weird effect on picking up orbs. Perhaps make it so that running over orbs (not even picking them up for extra mayhem) triggers a bomb with decent, perhaps 5 meter radius blast with random status effects on enemies hit. Perhaps even having random effect on every enemy but probably easier to give each blast an effect, but every enemy is funnier.
It should be a sound, not the same as monkey luck when this effect is active. Perhaps a bubbly sound?

A problem i have with some warframes is that you don't know what your powers do. I know i can read them but not in mission and a lot of powers are really out there so one needs more than mastery rank on the frame to really get a feel for it.
So i'd like to mitigate the feel i have when trying a new frame and using a power, that it goes all. "Poof, i used a power. The enemy now has a particle effect..... perhaps i get a symbol on my UI but i will probably miss that, not missing that will net me a symbol..... what does that symbol mean? It's probably a buff..... neat?"
With these potential new powers, wukong will be easier to figure out what the powers do through experimentation, which is how i learn new frames since i happily forget to read the ability descriptions and if i read them i forget them within seconds.
With that in mind i can describe what i felt with wukongs powers the first time i used them.
1. Crappy bolt power. Useless.
2. I'm a cloud now.... neat? Honestly his funniest power. I liked it a lot.
3. I read its some sort of invurnerability..... well it's useless since it costs too much. Never use.
4. Large whacky stick. I use to whack enemies! WHACK WHACK :D!

What i would feel with new set.
1. "This is getting out of hand, now there's two of them!" It would be fun.
2. Same as before.
3. Some sort of boost? It doesn't seem to do anything. Meh, never use.
4. Long whacky stick. I WHACK WHACK WHACK!!! :D!

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4 hours ago, IzzyTH-I51 said:

So, I didn't notice them trying the wuclone with a specter, can we just make sure it's possible, cause I want that, so bad. A specter that gives a second specter f yes please.

The reason that would not be possible is pretty clear though, player gets a clone, specter gets a clone, times 4 players, that's a lot of monkeys. But c'mon give us this. Give me a squad of 16 monkeys.

In the devstream they specifically said that wukong specters from deployables wouldnt spawn their own wukong clones, sadly. Somebody in chat had asked that question during the stream.

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En 17/6/2019 a las 14:37, Urlan dijo:

Seems to look a lot like some of the Ash rework suggestions @Nazrethimm had a while back. Particularly the one that had Smoke giving bonuses like healing or damage; and markers ordering Ash's specters which would have been specter clones versus just being attacks like prior and before. Defy's replacement didn't seem particularly functional as far as I could tell from the video feed I am afraid, but I wouldn't mind seeing stats for how it converts, ranges, and such though personally I am not optimistic in it finding a solid role in Wukong's kit; I wouldn't mind seeing more selling points.

wow... someone remembers me. I feel honored. Thank you.

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49 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

wow... someone remembers me. I feel honored. Thank you.

I remember those threads too. I'm guessing you gave up on the Ash campaign for meaningful changes?

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hace 8 minutos, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru dijo:

I remember those threads too. I'm guessing you gave up on the Ash campaign for meaningful changes?

I gave up on DE, not on Ash. I still have an Unreal Engine demo I made with it so I can play that rework. But alas it will never come to WF.

Currently I'm not playing much warframe, went back to WoW on a 3.3.5 server with a friend, and I'm getting into AoEII modding too.

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I've mained Wukong for a few years, until I quit somewhere in february, and this rework seems interesting to say the least. However, it can still be improved.

As the discussion implies the subject of contention seems to be the passive. I agree with that RNG isn't a good mechanic for a warframe, even for a passive. I do like the fact that there are 5 different buffs that you can get. So, instead I think the passive could get stronger with each death. So here's my iteration, inspired somewhat by Guy's Eight Gates from Naruto. I do admit that my iteration for the passive is a bit stronger in its defensive capabilities, but for me that's Wukong's whole shtick. I would also say that Level 2 and Level 3 could be interchanged with one another. The Level 5 buff is a stopgap measure to prevent mission failure, don't want that hour long survival go to waste due to some unfortunate series of events. I also thought of his passive giving permanent buffs after each death, but felt that it would have the same problem as the RNG buffs where people would kill themselves for the loot bonus.

5 Levels of Immortality
Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. These techniques build on one another, giving a hierarchy. If the level 1 technique fails, i.e. Wukong takes fatal damage for the second time, then the level 2 technique activates. This continues until the level 5 technique fails and Wukong dies. These techniques give him invulnerability, restore his health and empower Wukong further.

Level 1 Sly Trickery
Grants 3 seconds of invulnerability, restores 60% health and grants Wukong and his clone 20% evasion for 60 seconds. 

Evasion fits well with him both thematically as mechanically. Thematically he's quite the trickster, as the story where he drinks the Heavenly Wine tells, and, as a monkey, he's nimble. Mechanically he will be tanky enough to take multiple hits, granting evasion a chance to help out, and he can self-heal. His resilience increases decently but his effective health is unchanged.

Level 2 Earthly Transformation
Grants 4 seconds of invulnerability, restores 70% health and grants Wukong and his clone an additional 500 armor for 60 seconds.

Gives more survivability than Evasion, but is susceptible to corrosive damage. Thematically follows the story of him being a disciple to Subhuti.

Level 3 Path to Immortality
Grants 5 seconds of invulnerability, restores 80% health and grants Wukong and his clone regeneration equal to 100 hp/s for 30 seconds.

Thematically hard to connect through one of his immortality stories, though I linked this one to Laozi's pills, but we can't have everything.

Level 4 Radiant Visage
Grants 6 seconds of invulnerability, restores 90% health and grants Wukong and his clone a blinding aura of 5 meters for 60 seconds. The blind has a chance of activating every second and its range is affected by ability range mods.

Again more survivability without touching his effective health, while thematically being tied to the third peach from the Heavenly Peach Garden.

Level 5 Monkey Panic
Grants 7 seconds of invulnerability, restores 100% health and Wukong's abilities cost no energy for 30 seconds.

Time to end the mission. Thematically tied to Sun Wukong's fight through the world of darkness after his death; you have to have some stamina to fight for a long time.

I would show the next technique to activate upon taking fatal damage inside the Defy UI element, or through some kind of visual effect on/above Wukong itself. Though it might not be necessary as the main benefit of the passive is having that invulnerability and hp recovery.

These techniques could also level based on the warframe level, granting only the first level from warframe levels 1 to 5, opening the second technique at level 6, etc. At level 30 Wukong learns his final technique.

 

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14 minutes ago, MixMad said:

5 Levels of Immortality
Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. These techniques build on one another, giving a hierarchy. If the level 1 technique fails, i.e. Wukong takes fatal damage for the second time, then the level 2 technique activates. This continues until the level 5 technique fails and Wukong dies. These techniques give him invulnerability, restore his health and empower Wukong further.

All passives to help survivability is much better too imo. Honestly i think it should be only 1 charge with a 30s duration buff, and a 90s refresh on the charge. Keep the randomness, make it refreshable so you dont run out. No loot buffs so i dont need to kill myself a few times and try to get it for the sweet kuva.

 

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Yea, but that idea had already been talked about and it wouldn't add much to the conversation so I went at it from a thematic approach. The recharge is a good mechanic as it simplifies the passive. Yet with the amount of warframes in the game, I felt that a fleshed out passive akin to Nydus' passive would be a good addition.

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1 hour ago, MixMad said:

Yea, but that idea had already been talked about and it wouldn't add much to the conversation

Yeah I get ya.

My thought is that we are gonna shoot ourselves for the loot buff from time to time. Any other time the passive is worthless just like old one. We either will never trigger it because we tanky enough or we will burn all 3 and it won't matter anyways. If we are farming affinity or loot there's no content that will kill us, while if you go endurance we will burn all 3 and it won't make a difference. Had it been one charge and refreshable we could try and survive for 1m and keep going if we have defensive buffs.

 

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1 minute ago, MonkeyKV said:

My thought is that we are gonna shoot ourselves for the loot buff from time to time.

Oh? Based on my interpretation of "Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds" I read that as "enemies will drop more loot", or rather "enemies will drop loot more often". I've seen a few mentions of Kuva in the thread, but on the basis that this reads to be more like a resource chance booster than a simple resource booster, I'm not so sure.

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1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Based on my interpretation of "Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds"

Could be. My interpretation was like the resource booster which doubles for 60s. My guess is it uses the smeeta mechanic.

 

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Just now, MonkeyKV said:

Could be. My interpretation was like the resource booster which doubles for 60s. My guess is it uses the smeeta mechanic.

 

Guess we shall see. Not sure I'll be able to fully test right now since I have work in... 7 hours... and haven't slept yet... but I'm obviously going to screw around a bit right now.

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Just now, DeMonkey said:

Guess we shall see. Not sure I'll be able to fully test right now since I have work in... 7 hours... and haven't slept yet... but I'm obviously going to screw around a bit right now.

Yeah I'm at work, just saw it's out. I'll have a go and fiddle with it once I'm at home.

Excited

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5 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I gave up on DE, not on Ash. I still have an Unreal Engine demo I made with it so I can play that rework. But alas it will never come to WF.

Currently I'm not playing much warframe, went back to WoW on a 3.3.5 server with a friend, and I'm getting into AoEII modding too.

Hope it goes well in Azeroth Nazrethim.

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while i'll defenitely miss defy, useful to play high level missions as if they were normal ones, as in forgetting about tanking damage and just having fun, the specter ability is exactly was a solo-oriented frame like wukong needed.

i'm a very happy tenno right now

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Finally some one says in DE says melee 3.0.  Really hopefully of a manual block button. Or at least a fix for block mods.

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