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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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13 minutes ago, Doraz_ said:

while i'll defenitely miss defy, useful to play high level missions as if they were normal ones, as in forgetting about tanking damage and just having fun, the specter ability is exactly was a solo-oriented frame like wukong needed.

i'm a very happy tenno right now

Amazing so far but the clone ragdolling to the ground is hillarious

 

can he disappear in a way a little more "elegant"?

ty

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Posted (edited)

Exiting Cloud Walker with attack does not seem to happen, which currently makes it very awkward to use.

Also, Primal Fury's inputs are annoying, and building Primal Fury around toggling it badly ignores the obnoxious way you still reset our combo counter if we melee, and cancel Primal Rage for deactivating.  There is also no heavy attack, and I'm not a fan of keeping the dumb-looking "slam my fat pole base over and over" combo.  Was definitely hoping to see that go away with the "better" Fury.  Would like to see a much cooler air slam.

Doing a new Defy completely replaces the old Defy's armor, meaning the bonus armor aspect is wildly unreliable.

Would be a lot of fun if Wukong and his clone shared a mutual combo counter, so we get combo from his melee and vice versa.  Pretty please?

Also, since this is supposedly a test for melee 3, PLEASE STOP WITH THE PRESS 'FORWARD' COMBOS.  It's really annoying being unable to advance without being forced into the forward combo.  Use left, right, and back, and read diagonals on left/right so we can advance or retreat within the combo, but LET US GO FORWARD however we like.

Edited by TyrianMollusk
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Posted (edited)

wukong's twin AI needs to be improved, especially with some melee weapons, i tested it a bit, and the way he attacks is... weird.
He(the twin) attacks and when the clone finishes the standard e+e+e combo, for some reasons, he goes around the enemy, and starts attaccking again, once the combo is over, he keeps doing that all over again and again, attack---combo ends--goes around--attack--etc etc.

besides improving the Ai, it also should be able to randomly use differents melee combo, not only e+e+e, i know there is a TON of work to do in this case, bacause there are a lot of weapons(especially the melee) with which the twin has to interact, so, i'll be patient, and wait for improvements.

saying that, thx the overall rework is good and fun to play.

Edited by TheKurtiStryke
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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the rework!

One observation: it seems odd to have a passive which would seldom trigger for highly-skilled players! Perhaps it would be better if the passive's buffs triggered after, say, a certain quantity of damage had been prevented by his new Defy ability, or something like that?

Personally, I have such a talent for taking fatal damage that I frequently do it without even trying, so I'll probably get a fair bit of the sweet buffing... but I can't escape the feeling that this isn't how things should work in a game. 🤔

Edited by OmegaVoid
Typographical anomalies.
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I really like the rework. I've put a reactor on him and went straight for Arbitration and survived, even managed to resurrect other dead team members,
Only one point of feedback - using 2nd or 3rd ability cancels run toggle which makes it really annoying to press it again after using the skill, anything can be done about that?

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Hmm, seems like the dev video with Pablo still showed that Cloud Walker has a timer. 

Please DE get rid of it. I mean whats the point of having both an energy drain AND a timer on the ability?

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1 minute ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I mean whats the point of having both an energy drain AND a timer on the ability?

There isn't an energy drain.

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Posted (edited)

perhaps a bug but when i was leveling Wukong earlier at Rank 2 Defy gave me 8 seconds of invulnerability, at Rank 3 it was down to 4.

( 200 Duration )

The rework is fine, it really shows Pablo's touch there, but at this point this frame has really nothing that gonna have me play him over other frames, there's no particulary ability that i find interesting nor particulary fun

*shrugs*

Edited by arm4geddon-117

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Posted (edited)

I did not see affinity numbers from clone kills, which means my own 1 steals affinity from me.  That's awful.  If you are going to build the kit around the clone, don't steal affinity for using it.  That basically means Wukong gets reduced affinity from other frames.

EDIT: I am seeing affinity numbers now.  I am confused why I was not seeing them before.  I was specifically not attacking and watching it kill stuff, with no affinity numbers, but the last couple missions it was clearly producing affinity on kills.

Dual wielding thrown/secondary always counts as shooting.  I don't mind that because meleeing with the clone is more fun that running opposites, but it does make it very awkward to get the clone to shoot, since the only way to get into full-melee mode is to switch to primary and then melee from there.  Clone does not throw thrown melee nor dual wield, which isn't entirely unexpected but is still disappointing and uncool.

Primal Rage should DEFINITELY count clone kills, which it does not do, and should benefit the clone (can't tell on that, just saying it should).  Clone stealing kills keeps you from ramping up Primal Rage as quickly.  Turning off 4 still kills Primal Rage, which still sucks.  Also, Primal Rage still feels really meh.  Consider making is Blood Rush-y, since we're denied fun combo stacking on exalteds without annoying build lockdown.

Celestial Stomp feels really slow, since we have to hold to get it and then it's slow to act.  This should animate way faster or slotting it should switch Celestial Twin to hold-to-cast and quick-press-to-slam.

Edited by TyrianMollusk

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I feel like cloudwalker is supposed to cost 2 base energy per second, not 2 base seconds.

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Did anything from this discussion atually get to any Dev and got aplied to the rework?

Or is it like with the rework from Titania and Nyx?

Will anything, especially regarding Wukongs passive from this thread get picked up and looked at again, maybe even applied to another iteration of adjustments?

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"Set-it-and-forget"
Ember had it rough, still screaming from the nerf.

About Wukong:
1) Absolute win, might need some tweak according to the feedback from the community, but this is a welcome change.

2) Binding the healing factor to moving feels bad. I found myself in situations where i would like to stay in a position, heal myself and the specter but not furiously bump everything around me coz' the high speed of the ability (the speed is welcome tho). Also, giving the player the opportunity to utilize "sprint" as a speed modifier would be nice to have. This way we could better finetune the movement in this short timewindow.

3) I don't really get this one yet. What was the intention? Like: as Wukong, I notice  my HP is low and in deep trouble, press button, to prevent death. Duration ends, medium sized CC, armored enemies still alive, get shot, die (the extra armor wont help).
BUT! Here I have an actual idea how to fix these: damage stored and dealt back should be TRUE damage maybe? Maybe? Also, give this ability an AOE percentage based heal based on the armor buff gained, eg.: max armor value reached ( 1500) = heal every ally ( pods, kavats, def targets) back to 100% Hp in AOE, eg2.: 750 armor value reached ( 1500/2) = heal 50% in AOE.
This way Wukong could have a proper taunt-save-and-heal teamplay aspect, also removing the need of using his 2's heal every time after using defy.(Assuming you survived, and not got oneshot from an out of range heavy gunner/bombard).

4) Is dope. Feels good list: new combos(praise melee 3.0), new damage distribution, always long stick **furiously lifting eyebrows**.
The exalted weapon actually feels powerful now, and worth using.

Got nothing else in my mind. Further testing is required.

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There is a way to get the clone stuck in Primal Fury.  I don't know what did it (really, I don't even know exactly when it happened, and the things I tried next mission didn't reproduce the bug), but once it happens the clone will stay in Primal Fury for the entire mission with no way to get it to switch or shoot.  I did not see if it stayed after dying, as the enemies weren't threatening enough, but even switching in/out of PF did not get it to switch.

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Nice, I really like these changes! I'll definitely rebuild Wukong now  😉

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Posted (edited)

I've got to say that the rework feels pretty underwhelming compared to how it sounds on paper. I was actually hoping for more than this considering we'd lose the true Defy. Most frames can at least do something, even just 1 thing other frames can't do better. That doesn't seem to be the case here other than MAYBE Cloud Walker mobility on small maps. And most of those exceptions apply to frames like Vauban that need a proper rework anyways. This would be the first time my trust in Pablo has not met expectations because he's done GREAT work in the past.

Literally Gara with just 1 mod (Intensify lmao) can achieve better Damage Reduction than Wukong's 1500 + modded armor max (which is 85% DR but only in armor). Of course, armor doesn't even apply to shields OR armor while TRUE DR does. Old Defy could've at least been used to fuel the rest of Wukong's new kit including his new 4th ability even with some nerfed tweaks! IN FACT,  Gara's Splinter Storm would  NOT be interactive if it weren't for the rest of her abilties! With Intesify alone it is a FLAT 90% damage reduction that applies to shields, armor, and health. That's it straight up. Let alone the damage it can do provided you use OTHER abilities.It's not even close! At all!

To take this one step further old Defy could've at least been used to fuel Wukong's NEW abilties such as his 4th! Just because old Defy had a terrible kit to go with it does NOT mean the ability could not have been more interactive than it was, especiallialy with a kit to go around it! I recall the first Devstream of his rework annoucement saying Defy would not be reworked. Now it's been so nerfed around a lackluster kit that it is not worth it any sort of extended endless mission. Pretty much any frame other than Atlas, Vauban, and one maybe two other frames would be more useful.

If we really want to break down some stats, not including Inaros channeled Invincibility or Baruuk's channeled evasion, Baruuk still achieves a much higher ehp than Inaros and ESPECIALLY reworked Wukongs.

Is it better for completing missions on the starchart? Yes. Does the new Defy with rest of kit make any sort of pivotal difference doing so? no. Does the new Defy or the rest of his kit make a pivotal difference in extended endless runs compared to most other frames? Absolutely NOT. 

Edited by AntiMomentum
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Posted (edited)

Could there be some way to make Wukong stick to his gun while you use Primal Fury?

 

Perhaps tapping 4 makes you both pull out the staff, and holding it only makes you pull it out, and so the clone can keep shooting? I would like my clone to provide fire support for me wildly waving my stick around.

Edited by Tallgeese
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On 2019-06-13 at 1:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Press ability again to command Wukong’s clone to attack a specific target with increased damage.

Has anyone pointed out that people have been asking for this from kubrows since their release? 

If not, can we get this for pets? We have been asking for this for years. 

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Can you please make it so that Primal Fury (All melee Exalted Weapons, really) stance gives mod capacity the same way normal melee weapon does!

Thanks.

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Used Augment for Twin, cannot dismiss the clone as the binding remains same.

Hold 1 to dismiss without augment

Hold 1 to cast stomp with augment

Or maybe I am missing something, please enlighten me

 

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As expected, no obvious changes from feedback prior to release...

Abilities

1 - AI was all over the place and kept 'stopping' n random places like between lockers... so about as good as any other spectre then.  Only good thing over a spectre is it can be healed but considering my spectre is inaros it's not 'that' big of a deal.

2 - 2 second base duration on cloud walker is just comical in all honesty, I ran my old build and I managed to get 3 seconds.  I actually prefer the old drain based cloud walker over this short duration version.  Needs to be drain based not duration based, but keep the faster movement imo.   Heal needs to be separate from movement.

3 - a 3 second (with my 150% duaration) isn't enough to even give me a decent armor buff at hydron and I was standing in the middle of a dozen grineer.  Honestly it's just seems like an excessively convoluted way of trying to hide a huge nerf of his old ability. 

It's also a huge downgrade from other 1 button press 90% damage reduction abilities let alone the old defy in terms of survivability, even with the 3 single use per mission revives from the passives.  I still feel this is a completely unnecessary change to the one ability that I can't remember anyone having any complaints about, it was the rest of his kit that was the issue... I wasn't keen on the idea originally and I'm still the same now - In all honesty I'd like the old one back over this.

4 - not too bad, slam attacks are buggy and you can get stuck in an animation.  Seems stronger than the old one and seems to be 'fairly' successful at least at level 30 enemies.  This isn't actually that bad, it would actually make wukong a pretty good melee tank frame if we still had the old defy.  As it stands now, I might as well just grab a staff melee weapon and a tank that has a lot less convoluted way of being tanky.

 

As to making players play it more and be more interactive - I literally took it out for 2x5 rounds on hydron and then put it away for something which was more fun.  This new 'interactive' wukong playstyle was literally press 1 for the clone, watch it get stuck in scenery, press 3 when surrounded by enemies, become blind due to the energy design, and see next to no armor buff (yes there were plenty of enemies), repeat it a few more times and see the same outcome.  End up saying sod it, lets get the rounds over quick as possible then and just pressed 4 so I could melee everything with it's increased range...

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41 minutes ago, mrbubblepants said:

So I tried the wukong and cant figure out what they melee 3.0 part is. Like what is different?

The combos, primarily.  Instead of the old standy of hitting buttons with pauses spread between to differentiate the combos, it instead relies on you using movement and aiming keys to determine which combo you're performing.

Personally, I like the new combos with Primal Fury.  There's a bit of jank where the right-click combos end and then you pull your gun out which feels kinda weird, but with the way melee works now that doesn't actually get in the way of anything so it's a relatively minor issue.

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