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Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Oldkong could survive that quite happily without Defy, with proper modding ofc. I ran Sorties with him and didn't use Defy.

I used Defy for sorties. I personally found it easier. Also some of the bosses have pretty hard hitting attacks. The new Senitent boss one shots you with a lot of it's attacks.

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1 minute ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I personally found it easier.

I get that, I'm just saying that via modding you were able to survive those levels just fine without using Defy. It was something that was only really useful at a Sortie level and beyond, a few bosses excluded perhaps. 

That's still not even remotely enough of the game to consider the ability well designed imo.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I get that, I'm just saying that via modding you were able to survive those levels just fine without using Defy. It was something that was only really useful at a Sortie level and beyond, a few bosses excluded perhaps. 

That's still not even remotely enough of the game to consider the ability well designed imo.

Personally I found Defy to be useful in the starchart, especially on the Corpus levels. At level 50 some of those enemies can pack a mean punch. But, you have been using Wukong more consistently than I have so you have learned to not rely on Defy that much.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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Posted (edited)

Very fun rework, still needs some team utility though. Cloud walker could heal allies or defy could be like Harrow's covenant

Edited by Ramflare

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2 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

But, you have been using Wukong more consistently than I have so you have learned to not rely on Defy that much.

I will admit to practising a decent amount, and nailing the timings and mobility with Primal Fury to reduce how often I was shot.

I wanted to prove to people that Defy wasn't the amazing or frame defining ability that many acted like it was.

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Is there a chance we can get visible cosmetics on equinox’s duality clone (syandana and armor)? Wukong’s clone has them so the technology is there.

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My first impressions from a few rounds of Hydron are that reworked Wukong is pretty fun. He feels like the intention was to create a frame with a melee focus whose powers are more like additions to his move-set, maintaining and expanding his movement and pace. The result is very fluid and intuitive, adaptable to many situations.

The clone is much better than his previous 1, dealing damage and generally looking cool 😎.

I'd say the main drawback is his cloud walker now being duration-based, especially as the duration is very short - no more laughing at sortie-Kayla's rockets for me 😞 - which also hampers its usefulness as a stealth skill. On the other hand it does work well as a fast repositioning tool, fitting well with the theme of the rest of his kit, and heals are always nice 🙂.

The new defy is reasonable, a good reactive move for when you see that big boss attack coming, but against smaller things there is the matter of oops squad killed everything before my power got to do anything (see also Khora's 2, Inaros' 4's swarm), although with experience of Nidus and his stacks this may be alleviated versus higher level enemies.

As for the staff - so much fun! 😄 It looks as cool as it always did, huge reach, better damage and the combos flow freely and intuitively. Forward takes you forward, on the spot stays more or less on the spot, and right mouse to gap-close - great! Certain current un-updated stances are such a pain when their basic attacks include a move that fires you across the room while you're trying focus on that bombard or heavy gunner that takes more than 2 hits to finish off; control over when you gap-close and when you stay put is very much needed and welcomed. Also, no more pause combos - which I find nearly impossible to execute when I wish to but often fire accidentally when I don't - is an excellent change. If it is still your intention, as per one devstream or other way back, to standardise the combos when you expand this to all melee so that certain key inputs result in similar results across all weapon types (such as walking forward executes a forward moving combo etc.), I look forward to it.

 

As for the new melee system in general - rather than just Wukong - there are three drawbacks. One is the inability to open fire in alt-fire mode directly from melee; you have to use primary fire first to switch back before you can use the alt, so you can't spit Quanta cubes or Mutalist Quanta orbs straight off. Second is the inability to manually block, particularly with regard to mods like guardian derision. Third and possibly going to be changed/fixed when the channeling side of the rework arrives is the (current lack of) ease and speed of using life strike. Also perhaps, while stance and charge attack changes are underway, you could take a look at the unnecessary half-swing before you throw a glaive/wolf sledge which renders it offputtingly slow in such a fast game (though that amalgam mod helps). Other than that, it's looking good!

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Passive - Good on paper but terrible execution, there is a few mods that allow you to self heal and all for just for 30 60 sec of buff.. making this passive unreliable.

 Celestial Twin - rip Iron Jab, this new ability is Pretty legit, pretty much perm duality, but like duality, the AI SUCKS, twin using melee is a mistake, they have to get really close to start his animation even tho my melee range is longer than the freaking galatine, sometimes he got stuck on the wall, sometimes his aim is off, sometimes his when ahead to attack the enemy then come back and fore..

and you cant handshake your twin...DISAPPOINTING 😠

(Please release an augment allow 10 tiny celestial twin with the max of 15 but a cost of 30% hp max depending of how many you want to spawn...because pulling hairs is painful )

 Cloud Walker - this one receive a good buff, like...too good, able to heal while on cloud, moving on greater speed and the stun is just insane so good job!

 Defy - rip, i kind of like this, but oh well, rework of defy wasn't great, it's pretty much banshee 4 panic button, doesnt get the damage i need, taunt the enemy is a joke

 Primal Fury - Doesn't need to explain, it great, but once again, friendly AI cant melee S#&$

 

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From reading Wukong`s rework, it`s a big improvement. I glad that some ideas I had for him has been added to wukong.

Some of my idea sugesstions;

·       Wukong having the ability to use clones.

·       The clone’s survivability is based on wukong`s health shields and armour plus power strength.

·       The damage the clones can do to enemies will depend on power strength and melee mods.

·       (Synergy) You can increase the clone’s survivability by using the 2nd ability before you cast the 1st ability

·       Make it able to go through lasers, door barriers. (it won`t set off alarms)

·       Wukong does a wide range attack affecting enemies.

 

This is all well and good but I have more suggestion to add to him;

 

1st ability:

·       I think Wukong should spawn two clones or if clone dies, the clone splits to produce another clone. When this happens, they are very fast and powerful but have really low health.

·       Clones can use whatever stance you have in your melee weapon and stance from the 4th ability.

·       The movement speed can be increased by speed mods.

 

2nd ability:

·       You should be able to move while using this ability.

 

3rd ability:

·       If an enemy sees you while activating the 3rd ability, attack at your last location.

·       Sentinels and companions are invulnerable while activated.

·       The deactivation slam can brake crates.

·       You can go through grates.

 

4th ability

·       Holding the attack button will make wukong do 360 spin knocking enemies down.

 

Fix: When performing the animation, you can`t see the staff. (this has been like this ever since he was released)

Fix: Make the growing range of the melee weapon noticeable and effective.

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7 hours ago, Agayek said:

When Wukong takes fatal damage, his Celestial Twin takes the damage instead

Cute idea, but I think when it happens you should also swap places with the clone, in proper "ha, that was really me over there" trickster fashion.

Also, I get why you want the clone using your guns during your 4, but I strongly prefer the clone 4'ing alongside me, because that feels more right and fun.  If the 4 isn't good enough for that, then the fix should be making the 4 better.  Either way, the clone AI needs much better melee skill, especially with the combos doing ranged point attack, local crowd slam, sweeping through, etc.  Clone needs some situational triggers and to gratuitously use just the first move from a different combo here and there (or buff it by letting it use combo moves entirely independently, much like how it isn't subject to player gun rules).

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Really nice rework! However, I think his non iron staff melee attacks need tweaking. He does very very short melee combos before pausing. He also takes long to reach enemies whilst using melees. This allows enemies like heavy Gunners etc to constantly knock it down before it gets close. 

Change:

Wukong doing a longer melee combo or repeating the combo twice before taking that odd pause.

Having wukong teleport close to enemies when using melee. This way he won't take so long to attack and wouldn't simply be knocked down a thousand times whilst trying to run close enough to attack an enemy. 

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2 hours ago, Cyba_Zero said:

(such as walking forward executes a forward moving combo etc.)

This is not actually good.  You walk forward a lot when you're sweeping through enemies, and this design seems ok on the surface, but what it really does is lock you into forward combos if you want to advance.  Better to use side directions and let you use the diagonals to trigger the combo while moving forward if you choose, or to move forward while doing some other combo of your choice.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

Cute idea, but I think when it happens you should also swap places with the clone, in proper "ha, that was really me over there" trickster fashion.

Also, I get why you want the clone using your guns during your 4, but I strongly prefer the clone 4'ing alongside me, because that feels more right and fun.  If the 4 isn't good enough for that, then the fix should be making the 4 better.  Either way, the clone AI needs much better melee skill, especially with the combos doing ranged point attack, local crowd slam, sweeping through, etc.  Clone needs some situational triggers and to gratuitously use just the first move from a different combo here and there (or buff it by letting it use combo moves entirely independently, much like how it isn't subject to player gun rules).

The clone location swap was actually my original idea, but I have a feeling it would be difficult to implement on the technical side, and more than a little disorienting for the player, given where spectres can go/get stuck.  I'd certainly like them to try to build it and playtest it, but as awesome as it is conceptually, I have some serious practical concerns about it.

As for the 4, it's not a matter of Primal Fury not being good enough (because it is; I wreck 70+ enemies with the big stick without breaking a sweat).  It's that the clone using the stick at the same time removes one of the most interesting elements of Wukong: the synergies you can build for with your clone using a gun and you using melee, or vice versa.  One of, if not the foundational idea for the clone, from a game design perspective, is to open that space to the players to design a build to leverage it.

Unfortunately, that build space then goes away almost entirely when players active Primal Fury, as it forces players to either activate it and then not use it, or lose the new and unique build space.  Neither of these options are good from a game-design perspective, and it really should be addressed.

Edited by Agayek

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even more reason to provide more loadout slots... more buyable loadout slots WHEN?

i really would like to be able to switch from one frame to another, even if i havent played it in weeks. sitting there some minutes to sort out the loadout, when i wanna play a less used frame is NOT FUN for me.

PLEEEEEASE let us buy more loadout slots.

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1 hour ago, Agayek said:

The clone location swap was actually my original idea, but I have a feeling it would be difficult to implement on the technical side

Well I'd argue the technical side is pretty much sorted already... loki safeguard switch/savior decoy, the grineer commander and arguably operator switching.

I doubt they'll add another augment from another frame into wukongs gear, he's essentially already got nyx's assimilate and equinox's duality as built in abilities.   It may end up as an augment though. 

I still feel it would be better to just revert to the old defy though rather than essentially trying to get the same function via another 'add on' to an ability but it's not going to happen, this is wukong now....

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27 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Well I'd argue the technical side is pretty much sorted already... loki safeguard switch/savior decoy, the grineer commander and arguably operator switching.

I doubt they'll add another augment from another frame into wukongs gear, he's essentially already got nyx's assimilate and equinox's duality as built in abilities.   It may end up as an augment though. 

I still feel it would be better to just revert to the old defy though rather than essentially trying to get the same function via another 'add on' to an ability but it's not going to happen, this is wukong now....

Huh, sounds like the technical side is covered then yeah. 'swhat I get for not getting around to playing Loki yet.  I've still got some usability concerns, but the only way to know how serious those are is to try it.  Would be nice if DE went for it.  Fingers crossed.

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17 hours ago, Zelmaya said:

Used Augment for Twin, cannot dismiss the clone as the binding remains same.

Hold 1 to dismiss without augment

Hold 1 to cast stomp with augment

Or maybe I am missing something, please enlighten me

 

They mentioned that you wouldn't be able to dispell it if using the augment

 

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To be fair, you can dismiss the clone with the augment, you just need to find a pit to jump in to do it.

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11 hours ago, KittySkin said:

Umbral Ember its not beefy. Umbral builds helps frames with already high armor. Wukong gains 1500 armor from his defy, that combined with adaptation makes him absurdly tanky, specially considering that he can heal with just a button and a few steps and his clone draws insane ammounts of aggro out of him.

his clone does not draw agro, every dam missiosn iv done they focus fire me, over my dam clone. Only time it aimed my clone was when i hid behind things. as for umbral builds making things tanker you proved my point. o and dotn forget if you forget your armor buff and dont "reapply it" or forget that its short as #*!% cd. woops ho armor. o an recasting defy loses your last armor buff.which armor falls off for us at lvl 75+ enemies

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Posted (edited)

A little bit of constructive criticism after the update has dropped...

Most importantly and, I believe, highly requested: Being able to auto cancel cloud walker should extend to melee weapons the same way it interacts with primary and secondary weapons. I.e. melee attacks should auto cancel cloud walker. It would add to the fluidity of the kit.

My personal thoughts...

The armor cap on defy should be increased (or changed to work like nezha's halo or maybe dmg reduction like mesa 90-95%???) and possibly a slight increase to base duration for longer armor uptime and increased time to charge to current cap w/o sacrificing a mod slot.

The clones attack frequency should be looked at... searching for targets could be improved, but the clone should keep attacking as long as the current target is alive.

Bugs?

The clone sometimes uses ranged weapons when Primal Fury is being used. Intended? Also, clone is unable/refuses to use certain secondaries i.e. pox.

Stuck in slam animation while using Iron Staff. Most notably happens when slamming on or near defense target in Helene. (Apologies for the lack of video example)

Questions:

Does the clone benefit/add to the Primal Rage augment and if not, can that be added? Maybe he can have his own Primal Rage crit counter or maintains the counter if Wukong switches to ranged weapons while still channeling Primal Fury.

Positive note: Great rework all around! Wukong is no longer a one trick pony. His clone is a great change from is former 1st ability, cloud walker health regen and speed is great, R.I.P old defy but at least it still adds a lot to his ability to survive, and the Slash addition to Iron Staff and the status increase was much needed. All hail King Pablo, breaker of weak warframes, father of reworks, King of the Nor...you get the picture.

@[DE]SpaceySarah

 

 

 

 

Edited by jcspeed00

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Tried a few missions high level missions with wukong and to be blunt I did not like it.

First ability is a welcome change, Iron Jab or what it was called previously was very dated.

Cloudwalker, I don't like the idea of healing and not being able to attack, it's detrimental to to the update as the goal from what I can tell was to make him more active. This ability just slows it down.

Defy, I really really dislike how it works now, first of all, there is absolutely no need for brief invulnerability, in any "oh S#&$" moment you either die or evade incoming damage, there is no real time to use it before dying and if such a chance does pop up, the defy's invulnerability becomes futile as cloudwalker lets you evade damage, heal AND move at a fast pace. At base stats you get 2s of slow paced movement followed by 25s of higher armor. Armour is not great when it comes to damage reduction and it certainly doesn't make the Monkey God immortal. The change I would like to see is the invulnerability removed and replaced with just 50% base damage reduction (up-gradable to 75%) with 30s duration. And a blinding aura added to defy that has a 50% chance to blind enemies.

Primal fury, gives an exalted weapon that has no benefit of use. It could really do with some health regeneration, maybe an effect similar to that of Healing Return?

The passive, incredibly useless at current state. Perhaps energy color could dictate what passive gets used?

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13 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

which armor falls off for us at lvl 75+ enemies

I'd love to know how bad people's builds must be that they can't take armour based frames past level 75 enemies. Whilst running Mot earlier I was surviving level 75 enemies just fine, and that's with their 3x damage buff.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-06-13 at 2:26 PM, DeMonkey said:

Image result for you're goddamn right gif

Knew he wouldn't be left totally defenceless. 3 death defies per mission, armour buffs and self healing? He'll be totally fine without the garbage that is Defy.

I'm really liking the look of this so far, I'm even pleasantly surprised by the clone as well despite being vocally against it.

so a passive with three ticks perma gone?? so everyone else has passive for full duration?? 

On 2019-06-13 at 2:32 PM, DeMonkey said:

I'll take 3 instances of increased loot/energy/invulnerability whatever over an additional 2 seconds of combo time, which still leaves the duration so short I have to use a mod for it anyway.

^ wrong your "buff" is random you have no control over it. and i repeat earlier you only get "3 ticks" with noway to influence/gain more. Also for me that 2 secodns was a big #*!%ing deal when i only needed to add 1 combo cout=nter mod vs 2 so i can slot more dps. because early on i only needed a few extra seconds till enemies really started to spawn. 

and this also made a weapon i built around his passive now kinda voided till i reforma it and drop a dps mod for another combo mod. which i feel i did not  before this but i need now. 

On 2019-06-13 at 2:51 PM, DeMonkey said:

Can you explain how losing Defy's ez mode invulnerability has killed Wukong? Can you explain how Defy is actually a good ability in the first place?

Because really now, Defy does nothing in it's current state. There's no reason to go above level 100 enemies, and there's no reason to use Defy's invulnerability against sub level 100 enemies.

Plus it's not like he's completely defenceless.

because you would use defy with ha/rage builds and need to stay in combat while toggling on/off defy to not stay dead. to refresh an reset its "percent" heals. while also staying in combat to keep you energy up with ha/rage. at the current moment current wukong sucks in higher lvl/dmg content. you also statede in one post that this is to "shuffle" up things

 

yea it shuffled things alright. with how armor falls off(which btw his is hard capped) and late game you still get 1 hit. Going adaptation to try to survive longer makes it so 3 gives less armor making him still easy to kill cuz he cant get armor with adaptation reducing it. but you need adapation for hard content. atm "umbral" build or bust with him is just trash. 

Duration is moot on him other then increasing armor buff timer which is still timed and still adds another thing you have to micromanage

wukong atm is micro manage simulator. 

Track clone, Track hp of self/clone for heal with 2, track armor buff, defy when u need to survive better vs burst but lose last armor buff, energy drain on 4

meanwhile you have no way to keep track off your buff from passive unless u keep track within head how many lives have you lost? how many do you have left? 

 

so after tryign several combos, builds blowing forma and re leveling him. im just piissed off only thign that was decent was replacing 1 i guess? but i lose on my sduper jab that was off your melee weapons like atlas punch was. 

so

 

Edited by NytemareRhosyn
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