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Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong


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While the reworked Defy can deal reasonable damage if Wukong is being swamped, repetitive spinning for few seconds each time is very boring compared to the old Defy in which Wukong was at least able to use whatever powerful weapons he carried to fight the enemies face to face.

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I like Nu-kong personally, there's really only two off the cuff suggestion I could really come up with to help improve the new monkey overlord after playing around with him.

-His passive while neat, is pretty limited. Per mission just feels icky for whatever reason so my suggestion is slap it on something like a 2 minute cooldown after activation. Sidebar, maybe reduce remaining duration by 1 second per enemy slain within affinity range.

-Additionally/or maybe allow one of his passive bonuses to proc in mission after slaying X amount of enemies as well? Maybe within a set time like a combo system? Or a flat time based buff rotation like a Smeeta? I could see the kill based bonus rewarding aggressive play allowing Wukong to chain bonus into bonus if he's fast enough (and appease the never die, old defy detractors)


Keep being breathtaking DE team, looking forward to another great year ahead.

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To be blunt I think whomever is responsible for the rework did a great job.  Frame went from gathering dust to fun and useful.  I am stacking strength and duration, it seems very strong.  Only gripes is the wuclone shooting at enemies it can't hit due to obstacles and outside weapon range, a line of sight check and a within range check would be nice for ai.  Cloud walker granting stealth would be nice for spy missions, it is only a few seconds so wouldn't be op.

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I feel like a fair trade between the immortality of the old Defy loop and the not immortality of new Defy would be to simply remove the armor cap from new Defy. It still has to be refreshed anyways this way, and even with no armor cap can't be used in the loop (set and forget). You still have to take a decent amount of damage to get armor by being near a group of enemies, and doesn't change the damage output when Defy ends. It's still based on the damage of what the enemies can do to you, it just doesn't fall off against long endurance run enemies with no cap! In other words, it would still be interactive which if I'm not mistaken was the entire purpose of nerfing Defy in the first place due to old Defy not being interactive. @[DE]Pablo

This way:
"Set and forget" still isn't possible.
It's still just as interactive and fuctionally works the same. Just without a cap.
Changes nothing for standard starchart mission completion compared to how it currently works.
It isn't fodder in long endurance runs.

We already have: 
Nezha's Warding Halo
Rhino's Iron skin
Both of which have armor absorbtion multipliers, rather than caps.
Both frames can provide damage multipliers for the entire squad
Despite the new Defy also having the damage multiplier, it does not apply to the rest of squad anyways.
 

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On 2019-06-22 at 4:31 AM, CodeUltimate said:

what's up with all these delusional people even though some of the changes are quite good for his abilities the change for defy is not a good one, it #*!%ing sucks and it's not even worth using and it actually gimps wukong for high level content so please roll back the change.

I think asking for a rollback is even more delusional. 

 

They're undoubtedly good changes. Wukong is great at level 165, and I can't imagine ever needing to go higher than that for any content. 

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On 2019-06-23 at 6:10 AM, modalmojo said:

While the reworked Defy can deal reasonable damage if Wukong is being swamped, repetitive spinning for few seconds each time is very boring compared to the old Defy in which Wukong was at least able to use whatever powerful weapons he carried to fight the enemies face to face.

1. You don't spin.

2. You gain armour, knock things down, and then take the fight to them. It's undoubtedly better to the old defy where you were more focused on the energy meter than the game... no contest defy is better as an ability even if it is nerfed. 

On 2019-06-23 at 6:04 AM, modalmojo said:

The stun time out of Cloud Walker is also way too short, should be buffed along with the duration of using Cloud Walker.

Hint: attack an enemy straight out of Cloud Walker rather than deactivating it manually. 100% will land a huge finisher every time. 

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7 hours ago, Shpow said:

1. You don't spin.

2. You gain armour, knock things down, and then take the fight to them. It's undoubtedly better to the old defy where you were more focused on the energy meter than the game... no contest defy is better as an ability even if it is nerfed. 

Hint: attack an enemy straight out of Cloud Walker rather than deactivating it manually. 100% will land a huge finisher every time. 

Finisher is just so obvious out of the stun and people on this forum have already mentioned about the issues of melee attack out of Cloud Walker, not sure why you needed to give people a 'hint' of doing something so obvious.  You think you are the only one who knows this common thing?

However, I can tell you as I have been testing Wukong, both in simulacrum and soloing many sorties that are not supposed to be Wukong-friendly since the rework, it is definitely not 100% chance to land a finisher every time as you claimed.  It depends on how you position yourself for executing the finisher, and the erratic movement of Cloud Walker sometimes hinders the precision of the positioning.  In fact, you would have known what melee weapons and what stance that truly gave the freedom and 100% chance of executing the (stealth) finisher under the old Defy without the need to cloak yourself, especially soloing tons of high level mobs, if you were really a Wukong veteran. 

I have over 3k (non-steam) hours in this game, nearly 11% usage of Wukong on my record.  You claimed the reworked Defy is "undoubtedly better to the old defy where you were more focused on the energy meter than the game"?  From such a claim, I can already see that you did not have enough experience with Wukong, let alone an optimal build for using Wukong in the past.  I for one did not need to be "more focused on the energy meter than the game", you were clearly struggling for maintaining the energy instead of busy destroying the mobs like a badass by using a range of powerful weapons under the old Defy.

By the way, spin is just a word, of course Wukong is swinging his staff, I certainly did not mean it is something like spinning like Revenant or spin to win, that kind of thing.

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1 hour ago, modalmojo said:

Finisher is just so obvious out of the stun and people on this forum have already mentioned about the issues of melee attack out of Cloud Walker, not sure why you needed to give people a 'hint' of doing something so obvious.  You think you are the only one who knows this common thing?

However, I can tell you as I have been testing Wukong, both in simulacrum and soloing many sorties that are not supposed to be Wukong-friendly since the rework, it is definitely not 100% chance to land a finisher every time as you claimed.  It depends on how you position yourself for executing the finisher, and the erratic movement of Cloud Walker sometimes hinders the precision of the positioning.  In fact, you would have known what melee weapons and what stance that truly gave the freedom and 100% chance of executing the (stealth) finisher under the old Defy without the need to cloak yourself, especially soloing tons of high level mobs, if you were really a Wukong veteran. 

I have over 3k (non-steam) hours in this game, nearly 11% usage of Wukong on my record.  You claimed the reworked Defy is "undoubtedly better to the old defy where you were more focused on the energy meter than the game"?  From such a claim, I can already see that you did not have enough experience with Wukong, let alone an optimal build for using Wukong in the past.  I for one did not need to be "more focused on the energy meter than the game", you were clearly struggling for maintaining the energy instead of busy destroying the mobs like a badass by using a range of powerful weapons under the old Defy.

By the way, spin is just a word, of course Wukong is swinging his staff, I certainly did not mean it is something like spinning like Revenant or spin to win, that kind of thing.

Easyyyyy there tiger. 

 

1. I've had no problem executing finishers. 

2. Wukong was my most played for pretty much my first 100 hours or whatever. I'm at 2k. 

3. I'm more ashamed than proud of the hours spent tbh

4. I had an optimal build. Doesn't mean it was fun doing exactly what every other frame did, that is, use weapons but with the added caveat of only really using one ability when I did an endurance run just for the sake of doing an endurance run. 

 

Wukong is undoubtedly a good warframe now. He wasn't before. 

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12 hours ago, Shpow said:

I think asking for a rollback is even more delusional. 

 

They're undoubtedly good changes. Wukong is great at level 165, and I can't imagine ever needing to go higher than that for any content. 

at least they should change how you get the S#&$ty 1.5k armor because using the ability everytime it runs out and searching for enemies to shoot at you just so you can get your mediocre buff up again it's annoying.

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On 2019-06-21 at 5:06 PM, Zilotz said:

Sadly as cloudwalker duration was nerfed to the ground i see no more use for it... And for wukong itself too as it lose both attractive sides it had for me - defy and cloudwalker.

Now cloudwalker cannot be a stealth booster for my zenistar.

Defy now cannot protect me from enemies for a good time.

 

What do you mean no use? It's provides health and you can use it as a movement tool. No use, is different from the specific use you wanted.

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5 hours ago, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

What do you mean no use? It's provides health and you can use it as a movement tool. No use, is different from the specific use you wanted.

No, it just provides health. It's practically useless as a movement tool thanks to the low duration where you constantly have to spam it every five seconds. It's not so much a movement tool as it is yet another self-healing ability, like we don't have enough of those or alternatives ways to heal already. It would have been a lot of fun had DE made it an energy drain ability or didn't nerf the duration at all. Then you could spend longer in it and have fun flying around.

There literally would have been no downside whatsoever.

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Amazing rework, especially having tried him, I have never needed to use the passive if I pay attention. My only gripe is how his passive (very interesting btw) is limited. Maybe make it so he gets 1 technique every 2-5 mins and it stacks once or twice (with the received technique being random still). This would make sense and not be OP when of compared to the CD time of oberons Phoenix augumentation. You could remove or lower the buffs if necessary. Passives should not be limited use.

I would also recommend a much higher armor cap or a 90%dmg reduction.1500 is just mediocre, and does not add a huge amount to the kit (defy itself is solid though). 

Again, amazing job, wukong can now tank with the best of them and is my favourite frame, he just needs his passive altered slightly

 

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On 2019-06-22 at 12:31 PM, CodeUltimate said:

what's up with all these delusional people even though some of the changes are quite good for his abilities the change for defy is not a good one, it #*!%ing sucks and it's not even worth using and it actually gimps wukong for high level content so please roll back the change.

It does not gimp wukong for high level content, he has the same, if not higher survivability and far more utility, you are just salty that you can't press two and afk. This rework has changed wukong from a one-trick pony to a genuinely great frame

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11 hours ago, Shpow said:

Easyyyyy there tiger. 

 

1. I've had no problem executing finishers. 

2. Wukong was my most played for pretty much my first 100 hours or whatever. I'm at 2k. 

3. I'm more ashamed than proud of the hours spent tbh

4. I had an optimal build. Doesn't mean it was fun doing exactly what every other frame did, that is, use weapons but with the added caveat of only really using one ability when I did an endurance run just for the sake of doing an endurance run. 

 

Wukong is undoubtedly a good warframe now. He wasn't before. 

Exactly.

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On 2019-06-23 at 11:55 PM, AntiMomentum said:

I feel like a fair trade between the immortality of the old Defy loop and the not immortality of new Defy would be to simply remove the armor cap from new Defy. It still has to be refreshed anyways this way, and even with no armor cap can't be used in the loop (set and forget). You still have to take a decent amount of damage to get armor by being near a group of enemies, and doesn't change the damage output when Defy ends. It's still based on the damage of what the enemies can do to you, it just doesn't fall off against long endurance run enemies with no cap! In other words, it would still be interactive which if I'm not mistaken was the entire purpose of nerfing Defy in the first place due to old Defy not being interactive. @[DE]Pablo

This way:
"Set and forget" still isn't possible.
It's still just as interactive and fuctionally works the same. Just without a cap.
Changes nothing for standard starchart mission completion compared to how it currently works.
It isn't fodder in long endurance runs.

We already have: 
Nezha's Warding Halo
Rhino's Iron skin
Both of which have armor absorbtion multipliers, rather than caps.
Both frames can provide damage multipliers for the entire squad
Despite the new Defy also having the damage multiplier, it does not apply to the rest of squad anyways.
 

Yeah, please remove the cap

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2 hours ago, Onyxeagle171 said:

It does not gimp wukong for high level content, he has the same, if not higher survivability and far more utility, you are just salty that you can't press two and afk. This rework has changed wukong from a one-trick pony to a genuinely great frame

"higher survivability" lol alright explain to me how he has better survivability now. 

Btw I like the change to cloudwalker but defy feels like a chore to use now and you gain so little from it.

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2 hours ago, Onyxeagle171 said:

It does not gimp wukong for high level content, he has the same, if not higher survivability and far more utility, you are just salty that you can't press two and afk. This rework has changed wukong from a one-trick pony to a genuinely great frame

As much as I support changing Defy, I'm not going to pretend the old Defy wasn't better than the new one in terms of overal survivability. That's a fact its not as effective.

Also, everyone needs to get off this train of "You just want an AFK frame". It's a lazy comeback that just insults people instead of addressing their points because you can't be bothered and doesn't make any sense since there are plenty of AFK frames out there already.

13 hours ago, Shpow said:

Wukong is undoubtedly a good warframe now. He wasn't before.

Good in certain aspects. Not in others. He's more interactive certainly, but sometimes DE get a bit overzealous when it comes to reworks and IMO two of his abilities suffered from forced "interactiveness" when Defy and Iron Jab was all that needed to be majorly changed. The other abilties just needed some tweaks. Wukong was always a good frame in terms of survivability. Maybe not in interactivity, but then again a lot of frames in the game are not as interactive as some others - like Oberon, Inaros, Rhino and Limbo - and that is fine.

Not every frame has to be Harrow.

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14 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

"higher survivability" lol alright explain to me how he has better survivability now. 

Btw I like the change to cloudwalker but defy feels like a chore to use now and you gain so little from it.

Disagree with you entirely about Cloud Walker. Agree with you on Defy being less effective.

Cloud Walker's duration simply did not need to be nerfed or have yet another self-healing gimmick attached to it. If anything that should have been on Defy.

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45 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

"higher survivability" lol alright explain to me how he has better survivability now. 

Btw I like the change to cloudwalker but defy feels like a chore to use now and you gain so little from it.

A. You have a aggro drawing clone with decent AI that shares your mods 

B. You have a very powerful self heal (70-80% a cast if you have a single duration mod) with a almost instant cast time, it also acts as a great movement tool which can get you in and out of combat zones, abd get you to things such as downed allies with no aggro.

C. Sure, defy is not as powerful as it was, but you now have two other abilities which mitigate this, and now defy provides scaling AoE and brief invincibility to give you time to breath. Also gives you a armor buff (I will admit the cap hurts this)

D. Long ranged melee weapon with very nice dmg and stats. If I'm correct it also scales off your melee as well.

 

In short, we have lost the power of defy in exchange for a host of other powerful options

I think that the cap for defy needs to be removed, but that's about it.

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Wukong rework.

Ok so, this are my opinions on the Wukong rework as the 25/06/19; I won’t comment on what is fine as to avoid a wall of text.

Passive: very nice

Celestial Twin: Very nice, but my issue is with the AI being a bit dumb, especially with the use of the primal fury, when it often just follows you and everything is killed by you.

Cloud walker: Very nice

Primal fury: Superb

Defy: Here comes the bad. Defy is bad on so many levels. The idea per se is very good. You have 45% DR with the base 250 armor and that raises to 85% with the 1500 bonus armor. The issues here though are multiple.

1) If you already have armor, let’s say 730(triple umbral mods) then the effect is WAY LESS useful, as armor scaled badly and we already have 70% base DR. With the additional 1500 armor we will get to 88% DR, an improvement of 18% compared to the 40% of before and a total improvement of only 3% from before.

This could be considered a “good thing “as it means that with base armor and the bonus we get a ton of DR, and we don’t need to add armor with mods, but here comes issue number 2.

2) The ability is EXTREMELY expensive with a whopping cost of 50 on a pool of 180. This with a base duration of 25 seconds really makes it annoying to use. Spamming abilities is never funny, especially if they are the way we survive. With 250% armor a face on frame like Wukong kind of needs always the survivability, meaning we should ideally have the ability always on. Considering a normal build with 155 duration and 130 efficiency we will have a duration of 38 seconds and a consumption of 35.  This means we will need to pick up 2 energy orbs (not considering other sources of energy for reasoning sake) ever 40 seconds to be able to keep up a fundamental thing of Wukong’s survival (excluding the very high cost of the 4 (fine though, as it’s very strong) and the use of the 2). Such thing is quite implausible in most missions.

Solutions to point number 1: as for now Defy adds 1500 to base 250. 250x6 is 1500. I would base the ability around this to give more incentive and value to the use of the ability with an improved base armor due use of mods. This means that if I manage to reach 500 armor with mods, my Defy will buff by 500x6=3000; for a total of 3500 armor which is 92% DR compared to the 85% of base armor. I think this is fair because after all a mod slot to increase armor was used. Considering instead the umbral triple set we would have 730x6=4380 armor for a total of 5110 which is 94% DR. Before saying this is OP remember that this requires 3 umbral mods, and you only get 9% more DR compared to base armor of 250.

Solution to point number 2: IF the DR Buff is applied and the ability is as such buffed then I think a simple length increase is more than enough. I would personally just double the base length, so that at 250% duration the buff will last 2 minutes instead of 1 minute. IF instead the DR buff above mentioned is not applied then I think that doubling the ability length and reducing base cost to 35 would be ideal. I will reiterate. Wukong is a melee frame, he is always upfront and personal, his Defy is the ability which makes him the front liner.

 

Iron staff: excellent weapon, nothing to say, the changes feels very good.

Forward combo: Nice, works nicely

Still combo: INCREDIBLE COMBO, i love to use it and it just feels STRONG.

Still combo+right click: Very good for CC, I almost never use it but I can see the value in it.

Forward combo+right click: This is a good idea badly executed imo. I like the idea very much, the issue though is that a “gap closer” we have either bulletjump and directional slam, or just slide attacking which covers a ton of space. In my opinion an easy fix is just: expand the staff at like half size when doing such attack and make it work like an Arca plasmor projectile that hits all enemies in front. This in a LONG range. The attack must be in a straight line but needs to go much further than normal attacks, so that if can be actively used to attack far enemies than normal staff attacks could not reach. At this point you could either stop, and have as such changed the function from “ gap closure” ( already present in the game by other means ) to " far attack", OR you could keep the “ drop kick “ in but make it 3x or more times more strong ( as in you jump 3x or more times further, maybe stopping if you hit an enemy ).

 

This concludes my opinions on the rework after a week or testing, putting a mountain of forma on it and playing it a lot. In conclusion the rework is SUPERB but defy feels underwhelming.

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3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Good in certain aspects. Not in others

isnt this fine?

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

when Defy and Iron Jab was all that needed to be majorly changed.

Isnt this what happened?

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

As much as I support changing Defy, I'm not going to pretend the old Defy wasn't better than the new one in terms of overal survivability. That's a fact its not as effective.

Well if we are talking about level 300 enemies no it is not. For anything 100 and under its just the same and much less cumbersome in my opinion. 50 energy for 1m of immorrtality with the duration i am running is better then a heavy cost channeled skill. My issue with defy is that they "nerfed" the survivability aspect (which they should have) but did not give it anything meaningful in return. The taunt is useless and the spin as well. Survivability wise its fine, i wish they would remove the stupid animation, let you keep fighting while its "absorbing" and remove the spin while increasing the taunt range drastically. So it doesnt break combat flow, makes it easier to get the buff and you get meaningfull team utility.

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3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Disagree with you entirely about Cloud Walker. Agree with you on Defy being less effective.

Cloud Walker's duration simply did not need to be nerfed or have yet another self-healing gimmick attached to it. If anything that should have been on Defy.

I disagree with you entirely on this. The heal absolutely needed to be on Cloud walker, otherwise there is NO REASON to use it. Mobility is easily achivable with the operator and parkour without needing to build for it. Cloud walker having a short duration is so it cant be an afk tool (good reason) and to counterbalance the absurd mobility and healing it provides. My cloud walker lasts about 5s and im finding it probably the best mobility tool in the game, and it has allowed me to ditch the 2 magus elevate on my operator, which gives me build diversity.

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