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Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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If you run a balanced build with a duration of 123%, the timer of Cloud Walker & Defy is even down to 2.46 seconds.

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4 hours ago, modalmojo said:

With over 200% duration, the timer of Cloud Walker & Defy is just about 4 seconds.

If you max the duration to over 300% by putting on Narrow Minded, you will severely hurt the range which is unwise, but even that you just get about 6 seconds. 

The duration is pathetically short.

To be fair, Range is 100% a dump stat on Nukong.  It's almost entirely irrelevant to the frame.  The only thing it impacts is his Defy retaliate AOE (which won't kill anything that matters in the first place), and the stun from coming out of Cloudwalker (which, while nice, isn't all that big of a loss, especially given that you're already going to be landing on the important target(s) to be stunned in the first place, so you can land finishers on them).

Narrow Minded is, quite possibly, the best possible mod you could put on him.

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Not happy with the shockingly low duration on these abilities.

Dont enjoy the rework because of this.

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what's up with all these delusional people even though some of the changes are quite good for his abilities the change for defy is not a good one, it #*!%ing sucks and it's not even worth using and it actually gimps wukong for high level content so please roll back the change.

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3 hours ago, CodeUltimate said:

what's up with all these delusional people even though some of the changes are quite good for his abilities the change for defy is not a good one, it #*!%ing sucks and it's not even worth using and it actually gimps wukong for high level content so please roll back the change.

honestly they wopnt change back defy, im more worried about how he is only frame to lose his passive, 3 deaths no more passive, its per mission not "respawn" 

would have made way more sense with it being timer based, 1 "life" per every 180 like renewel, or "trials" to get more charges start at 3 max u can hold is 5, trials could be x dmg/y kills/z damage taken or healed. and increase what is needed per life but stop "trials" at 5. so if at 3 you get 2 extra from doign things aka your "stories/journeys of combat"(journey to the west refernce0 yuou cap at 5 an cant gain any more, it encourages you to play smart gives you a cushion which in non infinate, eventualy the trial will beat you instead.

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Not exactly sure if this has been mentioned yet but Defy's armor boost is a bit annoying to have on a duration timer given at rank 3 it lasts only for 25secs no mods. Maybe add another mechanic so that kills with his 3 adds time to your initial duration? Ex. Base duration of 25sec and each kill adds 1.5sec to the timer.

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Will Wukong's Primal Fury combos be fixed? Spinning Crash technique is very inconsistent, even more so with mods that increase melee attack speed.

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The stun time out of Cloud Walker is also way too short, should be buffed along with the duration of using Cloud Walker.

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While the reworked Defy can deal reasonable damage if Wukong is being swamped, repetitive spinning for few seconds each time is very boring compared to the old Defy in which Wukong was at least able to use whatever powerful weapons he carried to fight the enemies face to face.

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I like Nu-kong personally, there's really only two off the cuff suggestion I could really come up with to help improve the new monkey overlord after playing around with him.

-His passive while neat, is pretty limited. Per mission just feels icky for whatever reason so my suggestion is slap it on something like a 2 minute cooldown after activation. Sidebar, maybe reduce remaining duration by 1 second per enemy slain within affinity range.

-Additionally/or maybe allow one of his passive bonuses to proc in mission after slaying X amount of enemies as well? Maybe within a set time like a combo system? Or a flat time based buff rotation like a Smeeta? I could see the kill based bonus rewarding aggressive play allowing Wukong to chain bonus into bonus if he's fast enough (and appease the never die, old defy detractors)


Keep being breathtaking DE team, looking forward to another great year ahead.

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Posted (edited)

To be blunt I think whomever is responsible for the rework did a great job.  Frame went from gathering dust to fun and useful.  I am stacking strength and duration, it seems very strong.  Only gripes is the wuclone shooting at enemies it can't hit due to obstacles and outside weapon range, a line of sight check and a within range check would be nice for ai.  Cloud walker granting stealth would be nice for spy missions, it is only a few seconds so wouldn't be op.

Edited by Fairwing

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Posted (edited)

I feel like a fair trade between the immortality of the old Defy loop and the not immortality of new Defy would be to simply remove the armor cap from new Defy. It still has to be refreshed anyways this way, and even with no armor cap can't be used in the loop (set and forget). You still have to take a decent amount of damage to get armor by being near a group of enemies, and doesn't change the damage output when Defy ends. It's still based on the damage of what the enemies can do to you, it just doesn't fall off against long endurance run enemies with no cap! In other words, it would still be interactive which if I'm not mistaken was the entire purpose of nerfing Defy in the first place due to old Defy not being interactive. @[DE]Pablo

This way:
"Set and forget" still isn't possible.
It's still just as interactive and fuctionally works the same. Just without a cap.
Changes nothing for standard starchart mission completion compared to how it currently works.
It isn't fodder in long endurance runs.

We already have: 
Nezha's Warding Halo
Rhino's Iron skin
Both of which have armor absorbtion multipliers, rather than caps.
Both frames can provide damage multipliers for the entire squad
Despite the new Defy also having the damage multiplier, it does not apply to the rest of squad anyways.
 

Edited by AntiMomentum
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On 2019-06-22 at 4:31 AM, CodeUltimate said:

what's up with all these delusional people even though some of the changes are quite good for his abilities the change for defy is not a good one, it #*!%ing sucks and it's not even worth using and it actually gimps wukong for high level content so please roll back the change.

I think asking for a rollback is even more delusional. 

 

They're undoubtedly good changes. Wukong is great at level 165, and I can't imagine ever needing to go higher than that for any content. 

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On 2019-06-23 at 6:10 AM, modalmojo said:

While the reworked Defy can deal reasonable damage if Wukong is being swamped, repetitive spinning for few seconds each time is very boring compared to the old Defy in which Wukong was at least able to use whatever powerful weapons he carried to fight the enemies face to face.

1. You don't spin.

2. You gain armour, knock things down, and then take the fight to them. It's undoubtedly better to the old defy where you were more focused on the energy meter than the game... no contest defy is better as an ability even if it is nerfed. 

On 2019-06-23 at 6:04 AM, modalmojo said:

The stun time out of Cloud Walker is also way too short, should be buffed along with the duration of using Cloud Walker.

Hint: attack an enemy straight out of Cloud Walker rather than deactivating it manually. 100% will land a huge finisher every time. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Shpow said:

1. You don't spin.

2. You gain armour, knock things down, and then take the fight to them. It's undoubtedly better to the old defy where you were more focused on the energy meter than the game... no contest defy is better as an ability even if it is nerfed. 

Hint: attack an enemy straight out of Cloud Walker rather than deactivating it manually. 100% will land a huge finisher every time. 

Finisher is just so obvious out of the stun and people on this forum have already mentioned about the issues of melee attack out of Cloud Walker, not sure why you needed to give people a 'hint' of doing something so obvious.  You think you are the only one who knows this common thing?

However, I can tell you as I have been testing Wukong, both in simulacrum and soloing many sorties that are not supposed to be Wukong-friendly since the rework, it is definitely not 100% chance to land a finisher every time as you claimed.  It depends on how you position yourself for executing the finisher, and the erratic movement of Cloud Walker sometimes hinders the precision of the positioning.  In fact, you would have known what melee weapons and what stance that truly gave the freedom and 100% chance of executing the (stealth) finisher under the old Defy without the need to cloak yourself, especially soloing tons of high level mobs, if you were really a Wukong veteran. 

I have over 3k (non-steam) hours in this game, nearly 11% usage of Wukong on my record.  You claimed the reworked Defy is "undoubtedly better to the old defy where you were more focused on the energy meter than the game"?  From such a claim, I can already see that you did not have enough experience with Wukong, let alone an optimal build for using Wukong in the past.  I for one did not need to be "more focused on the energy meter than the game", you were clearly struggling for maintaining the energy instead of busy destroying the mobs like a badass by using a range of powerful weapons under the old Defy.

By the way, spin is just a word, of course Wukong is swinging his staff, I certainly did not mean it is something like spinning like Revenant or spin to win, that kind of thing.

Edited by modalmojo
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22 minutes ago, modalmojo said:

I have over 3k (non-steam) hours in this game, nearly 11% usage of Wukong on my record.

Usage %'s are so borked nowadays that you can't really use it as a valid statistic.

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1 hour ago, modalmojo said:

Finisher is just so obvious out of the stun and people on this forum have already mentioned about the issues of melee attack out of Cloud Walker, not sure why you needed to give people a 'hint' of doing something so obvious.  You think you are the only one who knows this common thing?

However, I can tell you as I have been testing Wukong, both in simulacrum and soloing many sorties that are not supposed to be Wukong-friendly since the rework, it is definitely not 100% chance to land a finisher every time as you claimed.  It depends on how you position yourself for executing the finisher, and the erratic movement of Cloud Walker sometimes hinders the precision of the positioning.  In fact, you would have known what melee weapons and what stance that truly gave the freedom and 100% chance of executing the (stealth) finisher under the old Defy without the need to cloak yourself, especially soloing tons of high level mobs, if you were really a Wukong veteran. 

I have over 3k (non-steam) hours in this game, nearly 11% usage of Wukong on my record.  You claimed the reworked Defy is "undoubtedly better to the old defy where you were more focused on the energy meter than the game"?  From such a claim, I can already see that you did not have enough experience with Wukong, let alone an optimal build for using Wukong in the past.  I for one did not need to be "more focused on the energy meter than the game", you were clearly struggling for maintaining the energy instead of busy destroying the mobs like a badass by using a range of powerful weapons under the old Defy.

By the way, spin is just a word, of course Wukong is swinging his staff, I certainly did not mean it is something like spinning like Revenant or spin to win, that kind of thing.

Easyyyyy there tiger. 

 

1. I've had no problem executing finishers. 

2. Wukong was my most played for pretty much my first 100 hours or whatever. I'm at 2k. 

3. I'm more ashamed than proud of the hours spent tbh

4. I had an optimal build. Doesn't mean it was fun doing exactly what every other frame did, that is, use weapons but with the added caveat of only really using one ability when I did an endurance run just for the sake of doing an endurance run. 

 

Wukong is undoubtedly a good warframe now. He wasn't before. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Shpow said:

I think asking for a rollback is even more delusional. 

 

They're undoubtedly good changes. Wukong is great at level 165, and I can't imagine ever needing to go higher than that for any content. 

at least they should change how you get the S#&$ty 1.5k armor because using the ability everytime it runs out and searching for enemies to shoot at you just so you can get your mediocre buff up again it's annoying.

Edited by CodeUltimate
8v
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On 2019-06-21 at 5:06 PM, Zilotz said:

Sadly as cloudwalker duration was nerfed to the ground i see no more use for it... And for wukong itself too as it lose both attractive sides it had for me - defy and cloudwalker.

Now cloudwalker cannot be a stealth booster for my zenistar.

Defy now cannot protect me from enemies for a good time.

 

What do you mean no use? It's provides health and you can use it as a movement tool. No use, is different from the specific use you wanted.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

What do you mean no use? It's provides health and you can use it as a movement tool. No use, is different from the specific use you wanted.

No, it just provides health. It's practically useless as a movement tool thanks to the low duration where you constantly have to spam it every five seconds. It's not so much a movement tool as it is yet another self-healing ability, like we don't have enough of those or alternatives ways to heal already. It would have been a lot of fun had DE made it an energy drain ability or didn't nerf the duration at all. Then you could spend longer in it and have fun flying around.

There literally would have been no downside whatsoever.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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Amazing rework, especially having tried him, I have never needed to use the passive if I pay attention. My only gripe is how his passive (very interesting btw) is limited. Maybe make it so he gets 1 technique every 2-5 mins and it stacks once or twice (with the received technique being random still). This would make sense and not be OP when of compared to the CD time of oberons Phoenix augumentation. You could remove or lower the buffs if necessary. Passives should not be limited use.

I would also recommend a much higher armor cap or a 90%dmg reduction.1500 is just mediocre, and does not add a huge amount to the kit (defy itself is solid though). 

Again, amazing job, wukong can now tank with the best of them and is my favourite frame, he just needs his passive altered slightly

 

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On 2019-06-22 at 12:31 PM, CodeUltimate said:

what's up with all these delusional people even though some of the changes are quite good for his abilities the change for defy is not a good one, it #*!%ing sucks and it's not even worth using and it actually gimps wukong for high level content so please roll back the change.

It does not gimp wukong for high level content, he has the same, if not higher survivability and far more utility, you are just salty that you can't press two and afk. This rework has changed wukong from a one-trick pony to a genuinely great frame

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11 hours ago, Shpow said:

Easyyyyy there tiger. 

 

1. I've had no problem executing finishers. 

2. Wukong was my most played for pretty much my first 100 hours or whatever. I'm at 2k. 

3. I'm more ashamed than proud of the hours spent tbh

4. I had an optimal build. Doesn't mean it was fun doing exactly what every other frame did, that is, use weapons but with the added caveat of only really using one ability when I did an endurance run just for the sake of doing an endurance run. 

 

Wukong is undoubtedly a good warframe now. He wasn't before. 

Exactly.

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On 2019-06-23 at 11:55 PM, AntiMomentum said:

I feel like a fair trade between the immortality of the old Defy loop and the not immortality of new Defy would be to simply remove the armor cap from new Defy. It still has to be refreshed anyways this way, and even with no armor cap can't be used in the loop (set and forget). You still have to take a decent amount of damage to get armor by being near a group of enemies, and doesn't change the damage output when Defy ends. It's still based on the damage of what the enemies can do to you, it just doesn't fall off against long endurance run enemies with no cap! In other words, it would still be interactive which if I'm not mistaken was the entire purpose of nerfing Defy in the first place due to old Defy not being interactive. @[DE]Pablo

This way:
"Set and forget" still isn't possible.
It's still just as interactive and fuctionally works the same. Just without a cap.
Changes nothing for standard starchart mission completion compared to how it currently works.
It isn't fodder in long endurance runs.

We already have: 
Nezha's Warding Halo
Rhino's Iron skin
Both of which have armor absorbtion multipliers, rather than caps.
Both frames can provide damage multipliers for the entire squad
Despite the new Defy also having the damage multiplier, it does not apply to the rest of squad anyways.
 

Yeah, please remove the cap

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