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Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong


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59 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

isnt this fine?

No.

1 hour ago, MonkeyKV said:

Well if we are talking about level 300 enemies no it is not.

It is. Immortality against one shots is pretty effective at level 300. Wukong right now could not survive a single sniper shot at that level.

56 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

otherwise there is NO REASON to use it. 

Faulty logic here because by that reasoning, every frame ability that doesn’t do damage and doesn’t heal is useless. Mobility can be achieved in different ways yes. So does that suddenly mean we should stop adding new ones?

What about Volts Speed? That has no healing. Or Nova’s Wormhole? No healing at all. Yet everyone uses these abilities. You’re being disingenuous. 

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2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No.

So frames should be good at everything? I see. We might need to rework 95% of the roster

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Immortality against one shots is pretty effective at level 300. Wukong right now could not survive a single sniper shot at that level.

Nor does it need to. Game is not and should not be balanced around level 300 enemies. Not every frame needs to scale indefinitly, the more you add those the more trivial our content is and its already easy enough.

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Faulty logic here because by that reasoning, every frame ability that doesn’t do damage and doesn’t heal is useless. Mobility can be achieved in different ways yes. So does that suddenly mean we should stop adding new ones?

What about Volts Speed? That has no healing. Or Nova’s Wormhole? No healing at all. Yet everyone uses these abilities. You’re being disingenuous. 

Shot yourself in the foot. Volts speed can be a greater mobility then operator and it ALSO boost considerably reload speed and attack speed, and most use it for that reason alone. Novas wormhole is the best mobility in the game, far superior to using operator. 

We should not add a inferior mobility only skill to a innate capacity of the frame (operator), as there is no reason to use it. Operator is not optional hes there like another skilll everyone has. If your frame skill is inferior in its only capacity to this its not good and should not be there in the first place.

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Great rework. Been seeing a lot of Wukongs in high level content still. The fact that he's still being used this long is a nice reflection of how good this rework is. Although, I'm surprised it came out this soon. Personally, I think it could've gone another 6 months when Wukong's Prime is supposed to come out. There are other frames that have been in drastic need of a rework for awhile now, such as my boy Vauban or Nyx. Nevertheless, great job DE. You did good with this one.

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12 hours ago, Onyxeagle171 said:

It does not gimp wukong for high level content, he has the same, if not higher survivability and far more utility, you are just salty that you can't press two and afk. This rework has changed wukong from a one-trick pony to a genuinely great frame

in order for defy to work with his builds, you had to be incombat nonstop. aka you could never "afk" with wukong. good try though

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3 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

in order for defy to work with his builds, you had to be incombat nonstop. aka you could never "afk" with wukong. good try though

You could reduce the drain to 1.25 energy per second, which would take 332 seconds to drain your energy pool from max (assuming Primed Flow). That's 5 and a half minutes.

Getting sufficiently damaged in that time would lead to energy being recovered, extending how long you could sit there for. Furthermore even if you take into consideration dying repeatedly you had (iirc) 11 defies before you just died, with an invulnerability duration of... say, 7 seconds you have a full 70/77 seconds of invulnerability before you would drop dead.

Or, put simply, yes you could afk in Defy.

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9 hours ago, Onyxeagle171 said:

A. You have a aggro drawing clone with decent AI that shares your mods 

B. You have a very powerful self heal (70-80% a cast if you have a single duration mod) with a almost instant cast time, it also acts as a great movement tool which can get you in and out of combat zones, abd get you to things such as downed allies with no aggro.

C. Sure, defy is not as powerful as it was, but you now have two other abilities which mitigate this, and now defy provides scaling AoE and brief invincibility to give you time to breath. Also gives you a armor buff (I will admit the cap hurts this)

D. Long ranged melee weapon with very nice dmg and stats. If I'm correct it also scales off your melee as well.

 

In short, we have lost the power of defy in exchange for a host of other powerful options

I think that the cap for defy needs to be removed, but that's about it.

A iv been in several mission where my clone is ignored, also it fails to use some very common weapons in this game at critical moments, amprex, other weapons with limited range.

b. while heal is nice could be toned for longer base duration, and can tuen down the speed a little bit. zooming aroudn is fun till you fly past doors, mobs your after.

c. "scaling" aoe vs there scalign armor is negliable. addign 100 dmg when they get 100 armor means eventually you dont "scale" due to how armor functions in this game. also aoe is 12m so face tank for it to work right. you admited the cap gimps is partially. needing an ability to patch an ability seems redundant.

d long range melee weapon that clone can not use without beign base to base effectively.. refiring back to earlier point, cloen fails to "range" check it seems for attacks. so certain weapons it just treats very oddly. in example when i use torid, clone treats it like a shotgun and runs into melee. 

 

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3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You could reduce the drain to 1.25 energy per second, which would take 332 seconds to drain your energy pool from max (assuming Primed Flow). That's 5 and a half minutes.

Getting sufficiently damaged in that time would lead to energy being recovered, extending how long you could sit there for. Furthermore even if you take into consideration dying repeatedly you had (iirc) 11 defies before you just died, with an invulnerability duration of... say, 7 seconds you have a full 70/77 seconds of invulnerability before you would drop dead.

Or, put simply, yes you could afk in Defy.

afk means away from key board to prevent perma death and continue getting that energy ment you had to stay in combat and move with it, specially in groups that can map wipe with 1 key. 

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Just now, NytemareRhosyn said:

afk means away from key board

Noooo... really? /s

There is no reason to afk in games in which people move around a lot and map wipe. Afking will be done in lower level content, generally a survival or defence mission. In those missions enemies will come to you, you do not need to follow combat around.

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3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Noooo... really? /s

There is no reason to afk in games in which people move around a lot and map wipe. Afking will be done in lower level content, generally a survival or defence mission. In those missions enemies will come to you, you do not need to follow combat around.

abiltiy to not refute what i stated, as per my point most people are treating his 2 like ember which would "set n forget" while wukongs issue was nothing on his kit save his 3 was good or even decent. 

and with rework i have a clone cool idea, neat implications. horrid execution albeit till bugs are fixed.(clone getting stuck/unable to use weapons/ faulty ai, inabilty to use certain weapons/)

that an once again my point stands wukogn was all about staying within the "flow" of combat, which his 2 now falls into so does his 1 and 4 works allot better then why not allow him to "fight" instead of just standign there breakign that flow?. you hard nerfed duration. or is the idea of being able to use our weapons "safely" even for a few seconds game breaking? or as several have pointed out remove cap/change to a damage absorbed like nezha halo/rhino skin woudl fit for his "defying the foes" right? defying there attacks on him as he does as he pleases

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30 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

abiltiy to not refute what i stated, as per my point most people are treating his 2 like ember which would "set n forget" while wukongs issue was nothing on his kit save his 3 was good or even decent. 

I feel like you're mixing his abilities up. It was his #2 that was considered (incorrectly) good. 

31 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

that an once again my point stands wukogn was all about staying within the "flow" of combat,

What's your point? You could still afk in Defy. I have explained how. 

32 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

you hard nerfed duration.

Oh brother, here we go again...

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Tried out the new Wukong a bit in simulacrum. He's certainly different. Survivability is a lot lower, but he's got a lot more DPS and seems more fun. If played correctly and smartly, I think he can still be the undying god he was before the update.

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4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I feel like you're mixing his abilities up. It was his #2 that was considered (incorrectly) good. 

What's your point? You could still afk in Defy. I have explained how. 

Oh brother, here we go again...

o no i hit wrong key as typing what am i to do, my point still stands, nor am i only person to point this out. yet. you seem to enjoy aiming for my comments the most.

Hell i made an entire rant with a pic added as proof that its possible to make it so your clone ends up with no weapons. which happened to me in a sortie but hey, this rework is very good an solid.

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2 hours ago, Sonicfanx1 said:

Tried out the new Wukong a bit in simulacrum. He's certainly different. Survivability is a lot lower, but he's got a lot more DPS and seems more fun. If played correctly and smartly, I think he can still be the undying god he was before the update.

Yeah, he still can, even with some extra bonuses but you have to be on your toes. His new setup is just as viable but a lot less forgiving to mistakes, which is a lot more fun imo

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There was no reason to make cloud walker into something completely different from what it was.  All they've done is pander to the chest pounding "git gud" crowd, most of which never even used Wukong but were whining about his abilities anyway. It's the players who whine about how other people play using frames they themselves probably didn't keep after mastering thay they've made happiest.

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34 minutes ago, MorphoPrime said:

There was no reason to make cloud walker into something completely different from what it was.  All they've done is pander to the chest pounding "git gud" crowd, most of which never even used Wukong but were whining about his abilities anyway. It's the players who whine about how other people play using frames they themselves probably didn't keep after mastering thay they've made happiest.

 Hiss old cloud walker was bad. Aside from the duration, which some people would like reverted. It was almost useless ability, if you wanted Invincibility you already had defy, and if you are using defy you still drain energy. It moved extremely slow and that doesn't fit the more fast pace nature of Warframe. It also heals you now, I bet you would've love it on the older kit, since you would be even more invincible. But nooo.

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1 hour ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

o no i hit wrong key as typing what am i to do, my point still stands, nor am i only person to point this out. yet. you seem to enjoy aiming for my comments the most.

Hell i made an entire rant with a pic added as proof that its possible to make it so your clone ends up with no weapons. which happened to me in a sortie but hey, this rework is very good an solid.

I have no idea what you're saying at this point, nor how it relates to my post.

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14 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

So frames should be good at everything?

Don't put words in my mouth/exagerate. I'm saying frames should be on par with others in their category. Wukong as he is right now holds no candle to Rhino, Inaros, Nezha or Oberon. His armour buff is capped at 1.5k which is pretty bad when you look at these frames. The armour cap should be removed in order to make him a more effective tank.

14 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

Nor does it need to. Game is not and should not be balanced around level 300 enemies. Not every frame needs to scale indefinitly, the more you add those the more trivial our content is and its already easy enough.

Agreed on some aspects, but that doesn't suddenly mean we should make our frames weaker. Frames should scale in some aspect as opposed to having flat limits applied to them. Defy's armour cap right now is just plain bad compared to other tank frames.

14 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

Volts speed can be a greater mobility then operator and it ALSO boost considerably reload speed and attack speed, and most use it for that reason alone. Novas wormhole is the best mobility in the game, far superior to using operator. 

I think an official citation is needed for your first comment about Volt. Nova's wormhole is still useless for anything other than travel, which by your logic makes it a bad ability. A lot of people also build Volt for simply his speed.

14 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

We should not add a inferior mobility only skill to a innate capacity of the frame (operator), as there is no reason to use it.

There is no reason to use a lot of things, you could simply stick to Inaros for the whole game and never need to worry about a thing. People still use inferior frames though. Also your notion that the operator invalidates travel abilities is purely your opinion. People still use frames like Zephyr, Nova and Volt for traversal. The new Running Man frame will no doubt be another method of transportation. The operators travel is also incredibly clunky and not as easy to control as other abilities.

Maybe you condsider the possibility that people use inferior abilities/frames/weapons purely for fun? I mean that is what a video game is supposed to be played for.

14 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

If your frame skill is inferior in its only capacity to this its not good and should not be there in the first place.

Disagree entirely. That invalidates basically all but one of the travel abilities in-game. People play this game for fun, if we all went by what the best was, then we wouldn't see much variety in the game.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

 Hiss old cloud walker was bad. Aside from the duration, which some people would like reverted. It was almost useless ability, if you wanted Invincibility you already had defy, and if you are using defy you still drain energy. It moved extremely slow and that doesn't fit the more fast pace nature of Warframe. It also heals you now, I bet you would've love it on the older kit, since you would be even more invincible. But nooo.

The only thing wrong with Cloud Walker was it's speed. All that needed was a buff and a change to it's augment and it would have been fine. DE didn't needed to change it so drastically by nailing a frankly out of place and unnecessary healing mechanic to it.

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4 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Wukong as he is right now holds no candle to Rhino, Inaros, Nezha or Oberon

Yes he hold no candle if you only look at his armor buff and throw everything else out of the equation. I am finding his damage far superior to all those you mentioned, mobility is way better, only nezha has anything close, and self healing also superior to some. Seems like a fair trade off in my opinion. You are making him seem bottom of the pack and not worth playing while those frames exist. 

4 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Frames should scale in some aspect as opposed to having flat limits applied to them. Defy's armour cap right now is just plain bad 

I agree to some extent. We need scaling to some point, but there has to be an upper limit to what we can survive, and 1500 armor plus invulnerability and healing on demand is good enough. Not counting arcane guardians, adaptation etc. The more absurd scaling frames are created or reworked the worse it is for rest of the roster. What we need is better AI, fix the IPS, better scaling for corpus and infested.

4 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Nova's wormhole is still useless for anything other than travel, which by your logic makes it a bad ability. A lot of people also build Volt for simply his speed.

You don't seem to grasp the logic. Nova's travel is far superior to operator mobility wise, so while yes it is travel only there is a reason to use it. Imagine nova wormhole only gated same distance as void dash, no one would use it. Again Volts speed has many uses and yes it's a better mobility. I play volt with 300+ strength and all Sprint mods.

Cloud walker healing is fine, defy needs to be better but I don't think the armor buff is the problem.

4 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

That invalidates basically all but one of the travel abilities in-game. People play this game for fun

You take it out of context. I am not comparing the mobility of different frames. Yes people play for fun, yes it's fine some are better then others. No it is not fine if your frame ability is worse in all capacity to the operator which is not optional. Imagine dashing with operator gave you 2k armor for 2 minutes not stackable with defy. No reason to use defy as there is no need to get hit to trigger and it's a longer buff, the skill might as well not exist.

Old cloud walker had no reason to be cast, they have given us plenty now, we can't take that out. Defy on the other hand lost a lot of survivability (as it should) but got meaningless trade-off. Taking the heal from cloud walker and swapping to defy is just swapping the trade-off problem. Arguably in it's current state it's far more comfortable to use CW then defy. One locks you in a slow moving state while the other makes you extra mobile. I rather heal using the mobile version.

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Il y a 7 heures, TheGodofWiFi a dit :

The only thing wrong with Cloud Walker was it's speed. All that needed was a buff and a change to it's augment and it would have been fine. DE didn't needed to change it so drastically by nailing a frankly out of place and unnecessary healing mechanic to it.

I honestly don't mind the healing mechanic, it's the 3x or so increase in speed along with the 90% decrease in duration that gets me. I used to slink across the screen like a cloud of fog, now I'm an invisible monkey on rocket skates. It only really works in a straight line in open areas. 

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The only thing devs should have asked to themselves is: "why is Wukong not so popular ?"

I don't think it has anything to do with Wukong not being efficient nor viable at all - tbh Wukong was literally immortal and his exalted staff was one if not the best of all, he was already really strong. I really think that Wukong lack of popularity was (1) his lack of fun and (2) his lack of utility.

Problem is that this rework is mostly solving the second concern only, additional small utilities have been added to next to worthless powers - decoy and retaliation (it didn't make Nyx popular), unreliable armor buff and healing (only when moving) (other sources can help with that and it doesn't even help with status nor anything else), travel speed (fun in open space, barely usable in small confined spaces - short duration too so not so fast, at least not like Nova) and some CCs such as stuns (did Wukong really need finishers when its staff is dealing millions of damage already ?).

No one will look to Wukong for this utilities, they won't help much with anything in the entire game and unless you're obsessed with Wukong doing spy missions, i don't think that this rework will change anything with people who weren't fond of him. As far as i'm concerned i'm concerned that this rework is mostly pleasing Wukong fans, and that's no good news, cause they're far from being legion.

Now the fun factor. From a "cast and forget" defy and then some exalted brawl we are now stuck with a "cast and forget" clone and then some exalted brawl... Defy and Cloud walker are now the only active powers and the only purpose they offer is to help Wukong (supposed to be immortal as a reminder) to not die - with 50 to a lot of armor (mostly 50 sadly, Valkyr doesn't even need a power to get that much armor, what a pain) and some healing (not even passive, you have to channel it and thus not being able to do anything else than cloud walking, even if you don't want nor have to move away). Two powers for one purpose, a purpose even your operator can solve ?

Where is the fun factor here ? Let be honest a second, i've tried a lot of combination and the result so far is that using Cloud walker or even Defy is mostly a waste of energy, energy you need to sustain your only viable power - his 4th. Clone is decent but i don't see what's fun in summoning a clone and then forget about it, i don't even know what he's doing most of the time and at some point i don't even care. Sure it's efficient, but where's the fun ?

And let's talk about synergies, why there are so few synergies and why everything is designed around his clone when this thing has so few importances in Wukong new gameplay ? His new augment mod is fun (the 1st one) but it has strictly no priority so if you're playing along with Wisp enemies will get stunned by lightning but there's no chance you can suspend them in the air even if it's way more useful. And we're talking about an augment mod, not even the native power here.

So basically Wukong is now as boring as before, the only difference is that now you have to check his health all the time instead of not caring much about him being able to die. Sure some players will certainly find a way to enjoy his two nearly worthless new powers but in the end do we even need them ? Does Wukong's kit is viable without this two powers ? Answer is yes. Anyone can play all day long without even using Defy or Cloud walker at least once and call it a day, or even not losing some so previous "dps". So what's the point ? Why should we care ?

I've had a blast with Wisp, design was so creative, synergies were perfect, you wanted to use all of that powers all day long. On the other hand Wukong hits the bottom of the design bin, nothing is really mandatory in his whole kit and even the new clone feature isn't bringing anything that interesting nor synergize well. Really sad cause Wukong had a lot of potential, and as opposed to many Wukong fans (who cares anyway, they were already playing him so anything new was good news to them - it won't help with his lack of popularity at this point) i don't think that Wukong is more interesting or even fun than before - In fact he's as boring and even more painful to manage (health and energy for instance).

That's only my opinion, from someone who wasn't much fond of his boring gameplay and was looking for really more fun than that.

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1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

I really think that Wukong lack of popularity was (1) his lack of fun and (2) his lack of utility.

Problem is that this rework is mostly solving the second concern only

Lol.

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

did Wukong really need finishers when its staff is dealing millions of damage already ?

Cloudwalker always opened enemies to finishers, this wasn't a new addition.

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

i don't think that this rework will change anything with people who weren't fond of him. As far as i'm concerned i'm concerned that this rework is mostly pleasing Wukong fans

Unless you've deliberately not read people's posts, you've got to be blind. Many are praising the new Wukong for being exactly that, fun.

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

Where is the fun factor here ? Let be honest a second, i've tried a lot of combination and the result so far is that using Cloud walker or even Defy is mostly a waste of energy, energy you need to sustain your only viable power - his 4th. Clone is decent but i don't see what's fun in summoning a clone and then forget about it, i don't even know what he's doing most of the time and at some point i don't even care. Sure it's efficient, but where's the fun ?

Your inability to find an enjoyable way to play a frame does not mean the frame is unenjoyable.

It's just not for you.

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

I've had a blast with Wisp

On the other hand I've yet to find enjoyment in playing Wisp, besides admiring her assets as I play.

Does that mean she's a boring frame? A bad frame? No, she just isn't for me.

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Il y a 1 heure, DeMonkey a dit :

Lol.

Cloudwalker always opened enemies to finishers, this wasn't a new addition.

Unless you've deliberately not read people's posts, you've got to be blind. Many are praising the new Wukong for being exactly that, fun.

Your inability to find an enjoyable way to play a frame does not mean the frame is unenjoyable.

It's just not for you.

On the other hand I've yet to find enjoyment in playing Wisp, besides admiring her assets as I play.

Does that mean she's a boring frame? A bad frame? No, she just isn't for me.

This was actual feedback, and this never needed to be commented by any kind of Wukong fan, for obvious reasons. You have your own opinion (or lol) , i have mine. But as i said i won't even argue about any frame's popularity with any kind of fan, it's just a complete waste of time. You can't even see that, maybe you think about yourself as an expert or whatever but from my own experience so-called experts in videogames are the worst of all. So feel free to not even read me, it'll save you sarcasm and it'll save me time. All good !

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1 minute ago, 000l000 said:

This was actual feedback

It was baseless feedback. You can't say you "think that the rework only appeals to those who already liked Wukong" and that people won't find him fun when many have outright said otherwise.

You act like you're speaking for the community or have some sort of insight, but it's evident you haven't actually read people's posts. So I will criticise your feedback for having no leg to stand on and I will also criticise the fact that you're now hiding behind "it's just my opinion".

You made it very clear before release that you had an incredibly negative view of the rework, so much so that you were basically hyperbolic about perceived flaws, just as you are being now.

The frame isn't for you, that's what your feedback says.

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