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Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Onyxeagle171 said:

It does not gimp wukong for high level content, he has the same, if not higher survivability and far more utility, you are just salty that you can't press two and afk. This rework has changed wukong from a one-trick pony to a genuinely great frame

"higher survivability" lol alright explain to me how he has better survivability now. 

Btw I like the change to cloudwalker but defy feels like a chore to use now and you gain so little from it.

Edited by CodeUltimate
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Onyxeagle171 said:

It does not gimp wukong for high level content, he has the same, if not higher survivability and far more utility, you are just salty that you can't press two and afk. This rework has changed wukong from a one-trick pony to a genuinely great frame

As much as I support changing Defy, I'm not going to pretend the old Defy wasn't better than the new one in terms of overal survivability. That's a fact its not as effective.

Also, everyone needs to get off this train of "You just want an AFK frame". It's a lazy comeback that just insults people instead of addressing their points because you can't be bothered and doesn't make any sense since there are plenty of AFK frames out there already.

13 hours ago, Shpow said:

Wukong is undoubtedly a good warframe now. He wasn't before.

Good in certain aspects. Not in others. He's more interactive certainly, but sometimes DE get a bit overzealous when it comes to reworks and IMO two of his abilities suffered from forced "interactiveness" when Defy and Iron Jab was all that needed to be majorly changed. The other abilties just needed some tweaks. Wukong was always a good frame in terms of survivability. Maybe not in interactivity, but then again a lot of frames in the game are not as interactive as some others - like Oberon, Inaros, Rhino and Limbo - and that is fine.

Not every frame has to be Harrow.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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14 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

"higher survivability" lol alright explain to me how he has better survivability now. 

Btw I like the change to cloudwalker but defy feels like a chore to use now and you gain so little from it.

Disagree with you entirely about Cloud Walker. Agree with you on Defy being less effective.

Cloud Walker's duration simply did not need to be nerfed or have yet another self-healing gimmick attached to it. If anything that should have been on Defy.

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45 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

"higher survivability" lol alright explain to me how he has better survivability now. 

Btw I like the change to cloudwalker but defy feels like a chore to use now and you gain so little from it.

A. You have a aggro drawing clone with decent AI that shares your mods 

B. You have a very powerful self heal (70-80% a cast if you have a single duration mod) with a almost instant cast time, it also acts as a great movement tool which can get you in and out of combat zones, abd get you to things such as downed allies with no aggro.

C. Sure, defy is not as powerful as it was, but you now have two other abilities which mitigate this, and now defy provides scaling AoE and brief invincibility to give you time to breath. Also gives you a armor buff (I will admit the cap hurts this)

D. Long ranged melee weapon with very nice dmg and stats. If I'm correct it also scales off your melee as well.

 

In short, we have lost the power of defy in exchange for a host of other powerful options

I think that the cap for defy needs to be removed, but that's about it.

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Posted (edited)

Wukong rework.

Ok so, this are my opinions on the Wukong rework as the 25/06/19; I won’t comment on what is fine as to avoid a wall of text.

Passive: very nice

Celestial Twin: Very nice, but my issue is with the AI being a bit dumb, especially with the use of the primal fury, when it often just follows you and everything is killed by you.

Cloud walker: Very nice

Primal fury: Superb

Defy: Here comes the bad. Defy is bad on so many levels. The idea per se is very good. You have 45% DR with the base 250 armor and that raises to 85% with the 1500 bonus armor. The issues here though are multiple.

1) If you already have armor, let’s say 730(triple umbral mods) then the effect is WAY LESS useful, as armor scaled badly and we already have 70% base DR. With the additional 1500 armor we will get to 88% DR, an improvement of 18% compared to the 40% of before and a total improvement of only 3% from before.

This could be considered a “good thing “as it means that with base armor and the bonus we get a ton of DR, and we don’t need to add armor with mods, but here comes issue number 2.

2) The ability is EXTREMELY expensive with a whopping cost of 50 on a pool of 180. This with a base duration of 25 seconds really makes it annoying to use. Spamming abilities is never funny, especially if they are the way we survive. With 250% armor a face on frame like Wukong kind of needs always the survivability, meaning we should ideally have the ability always on. Considering a normal build with 155 duration and 130 efficiency we will have a duration of 38 seconds and a consumption of 35.  This means we will need to pick up 2 energy orbs (not considering other sources of energy for reasoning sake) ever 40 seconds to be able to keep up a fundamental thing of Wukong’s survival (excluding the very high cost of the 4 (fine though, as it’s very strong) and the use of the 2). Such thing is quite implausible in most missions.

Solutions to point number 1: as for now Defy adds 1500 to base 250. 250x6 is 1500. I would base the ability around this to give more incentive and value to the use of the ability with an improved base armor due use of mods. This means that if I manage to reach 500 armor with mods, my Defy will buff by 500x6=3000; for a total of 3500 armor which is 92% DR compared to the 85% of base armor. I think this is fair because after all a mod slot to increase armor was used. Considering instead the umbral triple set we would have 730x6=4380 armor for a total of 5110 which is 94% DR. Before saying this is OP remember that this requires 3 umbral mods, and you only get 9% more DR compared to base armor of 250.

Solution to point number 2: IF the DR Buff is applied and the ability is as such buffed then I think a simple length increase is more than enough. I would personally just double the base length, so that at 250% duration the buff will last 2 minutes instead of 1 minute. IF instead the DR buff above mentioned is not applied then I think that doubling the ability length and reducing base cost to 35 would be ideal. I will reiterate. Wukong is a melee frame, he is always upfront and personal, his Defy is the ability which makes him the front liner.

 

Iron staff: excellent weapon, nothing to say, the changes feels very good.

Forward combo: Nice, works nicely

Still combo: INCREDIBLE COMBO, i love to use it and it just feels STRONG.

Still combo+right click: Very good for CC, I almost never use it but I can see the value in it.

Forward combo+right click: This is a good idea badly executed imo. I like the idea very much, the issue though is that a “gap closer” we have either bulletjump and directional slam, or just slide attacking which covers a ton of space. In my opinion an easy fix is just: expand the staff at like half size when doing such attack and make it work like an Arca plasmor projectile that hits all enemies in front. This in a LONG range. The attack must be in a straight line but needs to go much further than normal attacks, so that if can be actively used to attack far enemies than normal staff attacks could not reach. At this point you could either stop, and have as such changed the function from “ gap closure” ( already present in the game by other means ) to " far attack", OR you could keep the “ drop kick “ in but make it 3x or more times more strong ( as in you jump 3x or more times further, maybe stopping if you hit an enemy ).

 

This concludes my opinions on the rework after a week or testing, putting a mountain of forma on it and playing it a lot. In conclusion the rework is SUPERB but defy feels underwhelming.

Edited by Jeancly
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Good in certain aspects. Not in others

isnt this fine?

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

when Defy and Iron Jab was all that needed to be majorly changed.

Isnt this what happened?

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

As much as I support changing Defy, I'm not going to pretend the old Defy wasn't better than the new one in terms of overal survivability. That's a fact its not as effective.

Well if we are talking about level 300 enemies no it is not. For anything 100 and under its just the same and much less cumbersome in my opinion. 50 energy for 1m of immorrtality with the duration i am running is better then a heavy cost channeled skill. My issue with defy is that they "nerfed" the survivability aspect (which they should have) but did not give it anything meaningful in return. The taunt is useless and the spin as well. Survivability wise its fine, i wish they would remove the stupid animation, let you keep fighting while its "absorbing" and remove the spin while increasing the taunt range drastically. So it doesnt break combat flow, makes it easier to get the buff and you get meaningfull team utility.

Edited by MonkeyKV
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3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Disagree with you entirely about Cloud Walker. Agree with you on Defy being less effective.

Cloud Walker's duration simply did not need to be nerfed or have yet another self-healing gimmick attached to it. If anything that should have been on Defy.

I disagree with you entirely on this. The heal absolutely needed to be on Cloud walker, otherwise there is NO REASON to use it. Mobility is easily achivable with the operator and parkour without needing to build for it. Cloud walker having a short duration is so it cant be an afk tool (good reason) and to counterbalance the absurd mobility and healing it provides. My cloud walker lasts about 5s and im finding it probably the best mobility tool in the game, and it has allowed me to ditch the 2 magus elevate on my operator, which gives me build diversity.

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59 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

isnt this fine?

No.

1 hour ago, MonkeyKV said:

Well if we are talking about level 300 enemies no it is not.

It is. Immortality against one shots is pretty effective at level 300. Wukong right now could not survive a single sniper shot at that level.

56 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

otherwise there is NO REASON to use it. 

Faulty logic here because by that reasoning, every frame ability that doesn’t do damage and doesn’t heal is useless. Mobility can be achieved in different ways yes. So does that suddenly mean we should stop adding new ones?

What about Volts Speed? That has no healing. Or Nova’s Wormhole? No healing at all. Yet everyone uses these abilities. You’re being disingenuous. 

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2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No.

So frames should be good at everything? I see. We might need to rework 95% of the roster

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Immortality against one shots is pretty effective at level 300. Wukong right now could not survive a single sniper shot at that level.

Nor does it need to. Game is not and should not be balanced around level 300 enemies. Not every frame needs to scale indefinitly, the more you add those the more trivial our content is and its already easy enough.

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Faulty logic here because by that reasoning, every frame ability that doesn’t do damage and doesn’t heal is useless. Mobility can be achieved in different ways yes. So does that suddenly mean we should stop adding new ones?

What about Volts Speed? That has no healing. Or Nova’s Wormhole? No healing at all. Yet everyone uses these abilities. You’re being disingenuous. 

Shot yourself in the foot. Volts speed can be a greater mobility then operator and it ALSO boost considerably reload speed and attack speed, and most use it for that reason alone. Novas wormhole is the best mobility in the game, far superior to using operator. 

We should not add a inferior mobility only skill to a innate capacity of the frame (operator), as there is no reason to use it. Operator is not optional hes there like another skilll everyone has. If your frame skill is inferior in its only capacity to this its not good and should not be there in the first place.

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Great rework. Been seeing a lot of Wukongs in high level content still. The fact that he's still being used this long is a nice reflection of how good this rework is. Although, I'm surprised it came out this soon. Personally, I think it could've gone another 6 months when Wukong's Prime is supposed to come out. There are other frames that have been in drastic need of a rework for awhile now, such as my boy Vauban or Nyx. Nevertheless, great job DE. You did good with this one.

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12 hours ago, Onyxeagle171 said:

It does not gimp wukong for high level content, he has the same, if not higher survivability and far more utility, you are just salty that you can't press two and afk. This rework has changed wukong from a one-trick pony to a genuinely great frame

in order for defy to work with his builds, you had to be incombat nonstop. aka you could never "afk" with wukong. good try though

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3 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

in order for defy to work with his builds, you had to be incombat nonstop. aka you could never "afk" with wukong. good try though

You could reduce the drain to 1.25 energy per second, which would take 332 seconds to drain your energy pool from max (assuming Primed Flow). That's 5 and a half minutes.

Getting sufficiently damaged in that time would lead to energy being recovered, extending how long you could sit there for. Furthermore even if you take into consideration dying repeatedly you had (iirc) 11 defies before you just died, with an invulnerability duration of... say, 7 seconds you have a full 70/77 seconds of invulnerability before you would drop dead.

Or, put simply, yes you could afk in Defy.

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9 hours ago, Onyxeagle171 said:

A. You have a aggro drawing clone with decent AI that shares your mods 

B. You have a very powerful self heal (70-80% a cast if you have a single duration mod) with a almost instant cast time, it also acts as a great movement tool which can get you in and out of combat zones, abd get you to things such as downed allies with no aggro.

C. Sure, defy is not as powerful as it was, but you now have two other abilities which mitigate this, and now defy provides scaling AoE and brief invincibility to give you time to breath. Also gives you a armor buff (I will admit the cap hurts this)

D. Long ranged melee weapon with very nice dmg and stats. If I'm correct it also scales off your melee as well.

 

In short, we have lost the power of defy in exchange for a host of other powerful options

I think that the cap for defy needs to be removed, but that's about it.

A iv been in several mission where my clone is ignored, also it fails to use some very common weapons in this game at critical moments, amprex, other weapons with limited range.

b. while heal is nice could be toned for longer base duration, and can tuen down the speed a little bit. zooming aroudn is fun till you fly past doors, mobs your after.

c. "scaling" aoe vs there scalign armor is negliable. addign 100 dmg when they get 100 armor means eventually you dont "scale" due to how armor functions in this game. also aoe is 12m so face tank for it to work right. you admited the cap gimps is partially. needing an ability to patch an ability seems redundant.

d long range melee weapon that clone can not use without beign base to base effectively.. refiring back to earlier point, cloen fails to "range" check it seems for attacks. so certain weapons it just treats very oddly. in example when i use torid, clone treats it like a shotgun and runs into melee. 

 

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3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You could reduce the drain to 1.25 energy per second, which would take 332 seconds to drain your energy pool from max (assuming Primed Flow). That's 5 and a half minutes.

Getting sufficiently damaged in that time would lead to energy being recovered, extending how long you could sit there for. Furthermore even if you take into consideration dying repeatedly you had (iirc) 11 defies before you just died, with an invulnerability duration of... say, 7 seconds you have a full 70/77 seconds of invulnerability before you would drop dead.

Or, put simply, yes you could afk in Defy.

afk means away from key board to prevent perma death and continue getting that energy ment you had to stay in combat and move with it, specially in groups that can map wipe with 1 key. 

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Just now, NytemareRhosyn said:

afk means away from key board

Noooo... really? /s

There is no reason to afk in games in which people move around a lot and map wipe. Afking will be done in lower level content, generally a survival or defence mission. In those missions enemies will come to you, you do not need to follow combat around.

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3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Noooo... really? /s

There is no reason to afk in games in which people move around a lot and map wipe. Afking will be done in lower level content, generally a survival or defence mission. In those missions enemies will come to you, you do not need to follow combat around.

abiltiy to not refute what i stated, as per my point most people are treating his 2 like ember which would "set n forget" while wukongs issue was nothing on his kit save his 3 was good or even decent. 

and with rework i have a clone cool idea, neat implications. horrid execution albeit till bugs are fixed.(clone getting stuck/unable to use weapons/ faulty ai, inabilty to use certain weapons/)

that an once again my point stands wukogn was all about staying within the "flow" of combat, which his 2 now falls into so does his 1 and 4 works allot better then why not allow him to "fight" instead of just standign there breakign that flow?. you hard nerfed duration. or is the idea of being able to use our weapons "safely" even for a few seconds game breaking? or as several have pointed out remove cap/change to a damage absorbed like nezha halo/rhino skin woudl fit for his "defying the foes" right? defying there attacks on him as he does as he pleases

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30 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

abiltiy to not refute what i stated, as per my point most people are treating his 2 like ember which would "set n forget" while wukongs issue was nothing on his kit save his 3 was good or even decent. 

I feel like you're mixing his abilities up. It was his #2 that was considered (incorrectly) good. 

31 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

that an once again my point stands wukogn was all about staying within the "flow" of combat,

What's your point? You could still afk in Defy. I have explained how. 

32 minutes ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

you hard nerfed duration.

Oh brother, here we go again...

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Tried out the new Wukong a bit in simulacrum. He's certainly different. Survivability is a lot lower, but he's got a lot more DPS and seems more fun. If played correctly and smartly, I think he can still be the undying god he was before the update.

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4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I feel like you're mixing his abilities up. It was his #2 that was considered (incorrectly) good. 

What's your point? You could still afk in Defy. I have explained how. 

Oh brother, here we go again...

o no i hit wrong key as typing what am i to do, my point still stands, nor am i only person to point this out. yet. you seem to enjoy aiming for my comments the most.

Hell i made an entire rant with a pic added as proof that its possible to make it so your clone ends up with no weapons. which happened to me in a sortie but hey, this rework is very good an solid.

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2 hours ago, Sonicfanx1 said:

Tried out the new Wukong a bit in simulacrum. He's certainly different. Survivability is a lot lower, but he's got a lot more DPS and seems more fun. If played correctly and smartly, I think he can still be the undying god he was before the update.

Yeah, he still can, even with some extra bonuses but you have to be on your toes. His new setup is just as viable but a lot less forgiving to mistakes, which is a lot more fun imo

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There was no reason to make cloud walker into something completely different from what it was.  All they've done is pander to the chest pounding "git gud" crowd, most of which never even used Wukong but were whining about his abilities anyway. It's the players who whine about how other people play using frames they themselves probably didn't keep after mastering thay they've made happiest.

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34 minutes ago, MorphoPrime said:

There was no reason to make cloud walker into something completely different from what it was.  All they've done is pander to the chest pounding "git gud" crowd, most of which never even used Wukong but were whining about his abilities anyway. It's the players who whine about how other people play using frames they themselves probably didn't keep after mastering thay they've made happiest.

 Hiss old cloud walker was bad. Aside from the duration, which some people would like reverted. It was almost useless ability, if you wanted Invincibility you already had defy, and if you are using defy you still drain energy. It moved extremely slow and that doesn't fit the more fast pace nature of Warframe. It also heals you now, I bet you would've love it on the older kit, since you would be even more invincible. But nooo.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, NytemareRhosyn said:

o no i hit wrong key as typing what am i to do, my point still stands, nor am i only person to point this out. yet. you seem to enjoy aiming for my comments the most.

Hell i made an entire rant with a pic added as proof that its possible to make it so your clone ends up with no weapons. which happened to me in a sortie but hey, this rework is very good an solid.

I have no idea what you're saying at this point, nor how it relates to my post.

Edited by DeMonkey
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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

So frames should be good at everything?

Don't put words in my mouth/exagerate. I'm saying frames should be on par with others in their category. Wukong as he is right now holds no candle to Rhino, Inaros, Nezha or Oberon. His armour buff is capped at 1.5k which is pretty bad when you look at these frames. The armour cap should be removed in order to make him a more effective tank.

14 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

Nor does it need to. Game is not and should not be balanced around level 300 enemies. Not every frame needs to scale indefinitly, the more you add those the more trivial our content is and its already easy enough.

Agreed on some aspects, but that doesn't suddenly mean we should make our frames weaker. Frames should scale in some aspect as opposed to having flat limits applied to them. Defy's armour cap right now is just plain bad compared to other tank frames.

14 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

Volts speed can be a greater mobility then operator and it ALSO boost considerably reload speed and attack speed, and most use it for that reason alone. Novas wormhole is the best mobility in the game, far superior to using operator. 

I think an official citation is needed for your first comment about Volt. Nova's wormhole is still useless for anything other than travel, which by your logic makes it a bad ability. A lot of people also build Volt for simply his speed.

14 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

We should not add a inferior mobility only skill to a innate capacity of the frame (operator), as there is no reason to use it.

There is no reason to use a lot of things, you could simply stick to Inaros for the whole game and never need to worry about a thing. People still use inferior frames though. Also your notion that the operator invalidates travel abilities is purely your opinion. People still use frames like Zephyr, Nova and Volt for traversal. The new Running Man frame will no doubt be another method of transportation. The operators travel is also incredibly clunky and not as easy to control as other abilities.

Maybe you condsider the possibility that people use inferior abilities/frames/weapons purely for fun? I mean that is what a video game is supposed to be played for.

14 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

If your frame skill is inferior in its only capacity to this its not good and should not be there in the first place.

Disagree entirely. That invalidates basically all but one of the travel abilities in-game. People play this game for fun, if we all went by what the best was, then we wouldn't see much variety in the game.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi

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