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Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong


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On 2019-06-26 at 4:25 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

The only thing wrong with Cloud Walker was it's speed. All that needed was a buff and a change to it's augment and it would have been fine. DE didn't needed to change it so drastically by nailing a frankly out of place and unnecessary healing mechanic to it.

Are you serious? I don't understand the people in this community. It's a relatively free heal. Take away all the other perceived negatives from the rework, how is this anything but a positive. Also, if he didn't have this heal, his survivability, with the changes as a whole would be way worse. It's a heal, take it or leave it. I swear on in warframe will people complain about a healing mechanic for their character, especially in a non pvp game. 

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19 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Your inability to find an enjoyable way to play a frame does not mean the frame is unenjoyable.

It's just not for you.

I'll be really honest here and add to this.

When Wukong was originally released, I really didn't think much of his kit and never built him until very recently. Not that I thought that his stats and abilities were inherently bad or anything, but more like they just didn't appeal to me. Wukong wasn't my type of 'Frame / didn't fit my playstyle at the time. 

Was Wukong really bad? That's...debatable, but I'm inclined to say no.

When the rework was first proposed, the more I read, the more Wukong sounded like something I ought to at least try as he seemed to have some interesting potential.

So I built him when the rework hit to give the changes a try. Worse case scenario, he'd be mastery fodder.

I can safely that Wukong is, for me at least, fun and interesting to play and pretty solid in his current form. Not perfect mind you, I think Cloud Walker's duration is a bit too short and the movement speed is too fast to the point of being almost uncontrollable, but in general Wukong is a 'Frame I'd definitely use again...in particular in Spy, Sabotage and Exterminate missions. Wukong's quite the solo play 'Frame now.

With his original kit though? More than likely he'd be leveled and binned or at least shelved.

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44 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

I'll be really honest here and add to this.

When Wukong was originally released, I really didn't think much of his kit and never built him until very recently. Not that I thought that his stats and abilities were inherently bad or anything, but more like they just didn't appeal to me. Wukong wasn't my type of 'Frame / didn't fit my playstyle at the time. 

Was Wukong really bad? That's...debatable, but I'm inclined to say no.

When the rework was first proposed, the more I read, the more Wukong sounded like something I ought to at least try as he seemed to have some interesting potential.

So I built him when the rework hit to give the changes a try. Worse case scenario, he'd be mastery fodder.

I can safely that Wukong is, for me at least, fun and interesting to play and pretty solid in his current form. Not perfect mind you, I think Cloud Walker's duration is a bit too short and the movement speed is too fast to the point of being almost uncontrollable, but in general Wukong is a 'Frame I'd definitely use again...in particular in Spy, Sabotage and Exterminate missions. Wukong's quite the solo play 'Frame now.

With his original kit though? More than likely he'd be leveled and binned or at least shelved.

prior to rework i used him for deep runs, now? i shelv him so i mean, its kinda older users are discarding him as newer pick him up. though what urks me is d.e monkey likes to harp on people with different thoughts, and also iti seems any bugs/issues/ get ignored unless its blatant. like wukong still has a issues where you can end up with both melee and/ pistol/secondary at same time so clone just does nothing in example this photo, cyanex/zaw combo. while my clone was off spinning in a corner?imw=1024&imh=576&ima=fit&impolicy=Lette

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Dear DE,

                Wukong's rework is interesting and I think You are hitting some needed areas of synergy between his abilities. His clone was a good idea but it can be better. I'm a wukong main and I need to say something... why was defy nerffed? All wukong needed was some cc and a damage buff to make him more usable! His passive is just a past reflection of defy. I would change his defy back to its original or have defy replenish his passive in some way (damage taken, kills from ability, etc) to make him unkillble again. I ranked wukong above all tanks and now he is lower because of defy's rework.  Cloud walker has great mechanics but should have a higher duration. His twin is interesting but not well coordinated in late game. His four needs to work differently than just a regular staff weapon. It should have a unique mechanic like Excalibur's four. DE, PLEASE consider retweeking defy to replenish his passive with damage taken, enemies killed with ability, or some form of stacks and his four to be unique like excal's four. Please make Wukong my tank king again! 

Sincerely,

A Wukong Main

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I have already given positive feedback earlier in the thread.  After additional play would like to see some tweaking of the enveloping cloud augment, perhaps granting stealth to wukong himself? or the cloud form being able to heal allies?  In its present form the augment seems far too situational to be of use.

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2 hours ago, modalmojo said:

It seems kill counts by Celestial Twin are not recorded in mission, I just noticed that in a Nightwave act (complete 5 PoE bounties).

Only when you're not host does this occur. Soloing or hosting will cause the kills to register as normal with some exceptions, hopefully will be fixed.

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On 2019-06-25 at 3:12 AM, CodeUltimate said:

at least they should change how you get the S#&$ty 1.5k armor because using the ability everytime it runs out and searching for enemies to shoot at you just so you can get your mediocre buff up again it's annoying.

Abilities in warframe don't always have to be 'up'. Use it if you need it. If you're searching for enemies to shoot at you then you don't need it. Why buff armour if you aren't even taking hits that are somehow threatening? I don't understand. 

On 2019-06-25 at 12:28 PM, CodeUltimate said:

"higher survivability" lol alright explain to me how he has better survivability now. 

Btw I like the change to cloudwalker but defy feels like a chore to use now and you gain so little from it.

I don't understand. Cloudwalker brings me to almost full health really quickly. You have a clone to attract aggro away from you. You can use Defy when getting overwhelmed to gain 1.5k armour, knockdown enemies and damage them, and then attack. Your 4, an exalted weapon, now actually scales and makes level 160 Corrupted bombards and heavy gunners weak. 

There's obviously something wrong if you think his kit somehow lowered survivability. 

On 2019-06-26 at 10:25 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

The only thing wrong with Cloud Walker was it's speed. All that needed was a buff and a change to it's augment and it would have been fine. DE didn't needed to change it so drastically by nailing a frankly out of place and unnecessary healing mechanic to it.

Instead it's actually useful, is good for spy, and gives healing. Why is it out of place? Why is it 'unnecessary'? You have a literally infinite supply of energy now. 

On 2019-06-25 at 12:37 PM, TheGodofWiFi said:

As much as I support changing Defy, I'm not going to pretend the old Defy wasn't better than the new one in terms of overal survivability. That's a fact its not as effective.

Also, everyone needs to get off this train of "You just want an AFK frame". It's a lazy comeback that just insults people instead of addressing their points because you can't be bothered and doesn't make any sense since there are plenty of AFK frames out there already.

Good in certain aspects. Not in others. He's more interactive certainly, but sometimes DE get a bit overzealous when it comes to reworks and IMO two of his abilities suffered from forced "interactiveness" when Defy and Iron Jab was all that needed to be majorly changed. The other abilties just needed some tweaks. Wukong was always a good frame in terms of survivability. Maybe not in interactivity, but then again a lot of frames in the game are not as interactive as some others - like Oberon, Inaros, Rhino and Limbo - and that is fine.

Not every frame has to be Harrow.

More interactive is better. Wukong had less interaction before than Inaros, and Inaros at least has a decent kit. 

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On 2019-06-29 at 11:40 AM, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

Are you serious? I don't understand the people in this community. It's a relatively free heal.

BUT we already have hundreds of free heal options not tied to energy!

From Kavats, melee to channeling to operators! I dont care for cloudwalkers heal it was previously a panic button. Every frame needs one imho.

Previously the duration of cloud walker allowed you to reposition to a safer spot with security and slight planning. Now its just a blink across a 6 metre zone.
His energy use is expensive now aswell with additional demand on the short duration in heavy fights Its either too short to reduce danger level or too expensive. It makes streamline and fleeting expertise compulsory to get any value out of the energy limits.

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On 2019-06-24 at 9:12 PM, CodeUltimate said:

at least they should change how you get the S#&$ty 1.5k armor because using the ability everytime it runs out and searching for enemies to shoot at you just so you can get your mediocre buff up again it's annoying.

Yep. There's no reason for the armor cap considering Nezha and Rhino already doesn't even have it.

Currently Nezha is more immortal thn Wukong now (Nezha gets brief invincibility when his armor ability depletes, giving time to recast if you're paying attention). Of course Rhino with an augment allows recast at any time. Wukong can't do any of that, and it ABSOLUTELY matters when enemies not only get increased damage but also increased speed in longer endless missions. There's no beffer between his new Defy eneding and Cloud Walker, aside from his 3 revives per mission. The 3 revives doesn't really mean much in that case at all 😕

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18 hours ago, Shpow said:

 

There's obviously something wrong if you think his kit somehow lowered survivability. 

 

I won't bother arguing the rest of your points, but this is categorically false. Old Defy was actually the best and easiest tanking abilitiy in the game. Even Inaros and Baruuk can get one-shot from any common enemies eventually. With Old Defy the more damage you took the better because you would also gain energy, WITH Defy active, and get invinciblity on EACH activation.Look up Wukong Defy immortality loop

You could be surrounded by level 1000 leeches and as long as you're actually taking damage you would still never die, even from one-shots that would kill Inaros or Baruuk at that level, and would drain Rhino/Nezha's energy like nothing. Literally 1.25 energy per second and Rolling Guard ensures you don't even need to hide at recast after like 14 activations. 

This also means as long as you were taking damage with old defy active that not only would you not die, but you could use it to keep his 4th active nigh endlessly as well....
And I say "nigh" endlessly because there are some exceptions. Such as a Mesa killing enemies before they can damage you, but at high enough levels where they could still get in range to drain some energy. At even higher levels enemies would still be able to reach you despite Mesa. So you could get energy anyways at that point.

Old Defy alone was like a Chinese finger trap. Literally the more damage you took the better, regardless of enemy level, endlessly. Imagine that with the rest of his current kit.

There is no reason for New Defy to have an armor cap at all. Even without a cap, it's still ultimately a nerf on Defy but gives roughly the same amount of interaction as with the cap anyways.

Especially since both Nezha and Rhino have damage absorbtion MULTIPLIERS, rather than caps at 1500, when the Last Immortal does not. He can't even tank, dps, or cc better than other frames. His best niche is SPY now. Both Rhino and Nezha can give damage multipliers for the entire squad rather than currenty Defy for just Wukong himself lmao and sill easily tank more damage. 

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12 minutes ago, AntiMomentum said:

I won't bother arguing the rest of your points, but this is categorically false. Old Defy was actually the best and easiest tanking abilitiy in the game. Even Inaros and Baruuk can get one-shot from any common enemies eventually. With Old Defy the more damage you took the better because you would also gain energy, WITH Defy active, and get invinciblity on EACH activation.Look up Wukong Defy immortality loop

You could be surrounded by level 1000 leeches and as long as you're actually taking damage you would still never die, even from one-shots that would kill Inaros or Baruuk at that level, and would drain Rhino/Nezha's energy like nothing. Literally 1.25 energy per second and Rolling Guard ensures you don't even need to hide at recast after like 14 activations. 

This also means as long as you were taking damage with old defy active that not only would you not die, but you could use it to keep his 4th active nigh endlessly as well....
And I say "nigh" endlessly because there are some exceptions. Such as a Mesa killing enemies before they can damage you, but at high enough levels where they could still get in range to drain some energy. At even higher levels enemies would still be able to reach you despite Mesa.

Old Defy alone was like a Chinese finger trap. Literally the more damage you took the better, regardless of enemy level, endlessly. Imagine that with the rest of his current kit.

Defy reduced effectiveness as you were beaten up in it, getting to the point if killed rapid fire, that you might not even have enough energy with some builds; your maximum life and shields also diminished - but it wasn't too much of a penalty since you could life strike foes if you were active. Of course, Defy drained energy and Eximus Energy Leeches actually could counter your energy gain but of course that Ancient Disruptor would negate any energy you would gain from damage with Rage anyway if still alive at the time. Course, you probably knew that, Defy didn't give invulnerability, but we do have a warframe who did have such an ability - Valkyr- and she combined her Exalted move into it, while having the highest natural armor among warframes (odd for a berserker warframe) and has a move to more than double that armor again (warcry).

No, as for interaction, Defy was interactive because somethings - ironically your example for one - would counter Defy before you could try while Wukong is fragile to hit with his normal stats. An invisible warframe like Ivara has no worries about energy management while firing from concealment - as enemies will not attack you if you are at least using silent weapons - and she doesn't drain energy while standing still and not getting attacked - which you will not be. Defy with Wukong at least required you to find somewhere safe to re-toggle.

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18 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Defy reduced effectiveness as you were beaten up in it, getting to the point if killed rapid fire, that you might not even have enough energy with some builds; your maximum life and shields also diminished - but it wasn't too much of a penalty since you could life strike foes if you were active. Of course, Defy drained energy and Eximus Energy Leeches actually could counter your energy gain but of course that Ancient Disruptor would negate any energy you would gain from damage with Rage anyway if still alive at the time. Course, you probably knew that, Defy didn't give invulnerability, but we do have a warframe who did have such an ability - Valkyr- and she combined her Exalted move into it, while having the highest natural armor among warframes (odd for a berserker warframe) and has a move to more than double that armor again (warcry).

Valkyr comes no where close to Old Defy. At all. Yes Valkyr can restore health while invincible, but so can Rolling Guard with Old Defy active and simply taking more damage (plus energy regen). Due to enemy speed also increasing at levels where any of this actually matters it's a non-issue. Valkyr can't use Rage/Hunter Adrenaline to gain enegy with 4th. Old Defy did. It was truly endless damage tanking, regardless of enemy level, forever, and gaining energy doing so futher fueling Defy.

Along with fueling any other abilities to spare.

keep in mind Rolling Guard simply requires you to roll rather than needing to find somewhere safe. Even if we take that out of the picture, I now refer you to Nezha and Rhino having an absorbtion mulitipler rather than a cap anyways.And iframes to deal with recasting for both frames. They can both avoid one-shots at endless levels. Current Wukong can't even with Rolling Guard. 😕  Remove the cap at least.

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36 minutes ago, AntiMomentum said:

Valkyr comes no where close to Old Defy. At all. Yes Valkyr can restore health while invincible, but so can Rolling Guard with Old Defy active and simply taking more damage (plus energy regen). Due to enemy speed also increasing at levels where any of this actually matters it's a non-issue. Valkyr can't use Rage/Hunter Adrenaline to gain enegy with 4th. Old Defy did. It was truly endless damage tanking, regardless of enemy level, forever, and gaining energy doing so futher fueling Defy.

Along with fueling any other abilities to spare.

keep in mind Rolling Guard simply requires you to roll rather than needing to find somewhere safe. Even if we take that out of the picture, I now refer you to Nezha and Rhino having an absorbtion mulitipler rather than a cap anyways.And iframes to deal with recasting for both frames. They can both avoid one-shots at endless levels. Current Wukong can't even with Rolling Guard. 😕  Remove the cap at least.

She can't while it is active this is true, because she is purely immune to damage while active; Wukong is not. Defy could gain energy yes, using Rage or Hunter Adrenaline, similar to how one might use Oberon's Renewal in fact - toggles disable energy gain from most non-energy Orb sources but not from them due to their entire purpose so far, but perhaps that could change in the future. That said, your point was two-fold; interactivity which being completely invulnerable or unable to be harmed as Valkyr and Invisibility offer thus negating the value of claiming Defy offers non-interactive play. Second, that Defy energy could be gained through energy leeches and other energy counters beating Wukong senseless; this is false, as such enemies disable Rage gains while alive, something that most toggle warframes find frustrating if they can not kill them fast enough.

I was discussing this earlier in the thread, but in the current 2.977 melee environment, to be able to able to be hurt if Valkyr wants to refill she can just switch from her Exalted Claws - DE Steve deliberately pointed out that it disables her invulnerability when not active while keeping up the drain and with her already impressive armor, further pumped often enough with either her Warcry and mods, she can actually survive outside of her pure invulnerability while Wukong can not if drained, magnetized, nullied, or comba/slowva harried. While no warframe likes those kind of all-out warframe ability counters, Wukong being able to take a hit with his average life, higher than average shields, but low armor outside his Defy was a joke and really that is true of most ability focused warframes as Wukong was, and still is now just in a constant spam of your abilities instead of keeping on the toggle. No, if someone was trying to argue that Wukong needed to get changed solely on interaction, there are many other warframes, particularly the entire stealth aspect of the design; that would need to get gutted, and of course Valkyr.

I would however agree that I find no harm in removing the otherwise seemingly arbitrary cap on armor that Wukong's melee Absorb can give him. Seems to be little reason for it other than just trying to prevent getting to that Valkyr level of armor resistance.

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21 hours ago, Shpow said:

Instead it's actually useful, is good for spy, and gives healing. Why is it out of place? Why is it 'unnecessary'? You have a literally infinite supply of energy now.

It's not good for Spy and I can say this 100% after playing around with it in those missions. Two seconds of Cloud and dropping out right into a laser grid is not useful. The heal is out of place and unecesary, because Cloud Walker was never the healing ability originally in Wukongs kit (that was Defy) and we already have a lot of ways to heal our frames already.

21 hours ago, Shpow said:

More interactive is better.

This is an opinion I disagree with 110%. We already have enough interaction with the game through Wukong's new Defy and Primal Fury. It's not a crime to have a few abilities/frames that maybe don't require so much schizophrenic micro-management.

21 hours ago, Shpow said:

Wukong had less interaction before than Inaros, and Inaros at least has a decent kit.

OldKong actually had more interaction than Inaros. At least with Old Defy you had to use it again every now and then. With a properly built Inaros, all you need to use is Scarab Armour once and you're golden for the entire mission. Talk about a "Set it and forget it" ability.

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On 2019-06-29 at 3:10 AM, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

Are you serious? I don't understand the people in this community. It's a relatively free heal. Take away all the other perceived negatives from the rework, how is this anything but a positive. Also, if he didn't have this heal, his survivability, with the changes as a whole would be way worse. It's a heal, take it or leave it. I swear on in warframe will people complain about a healing mechanic for their character, especially in a non pvp game. 

You leave out the detail where the heal was used to justify a nerf to an ability, so no it's not "anything but a positive". The heal quite frankly did not need to be stapled to Cloud Walker. It could simply have been part of his new Defy, which would make sense since his Old Defy was the original healing ability.

Cloud Walker needed it's speed boosted. That is all. The healing mechanic could have been part of another of his abilities like Defy or even Primal Fury.

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On 2019-06-13 at 12:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:


Statistic Changes

  • Health will be increased from 100 to 150 (at max rank increased from 300 to 450).
  • Shield will be decreased from 125 to 100 (at max rank decreased from 375 to 300).
    • Why? Since Wukong’s new kit now involves an armour buff, relying more on his health will enable a better synergy.
  • Energy will be increased from 100 to 120 (at max rank 150 to 180).
  • Sprint will be increased from .95 to 1.0.

 

I love the rework but if the leaked stats for Wukong prime are correct I will be sad. The shield bump is a terrible idea and works against the synergy you mention above. I already use a key on him to remove shields. Give him anything else, or nothing.  Just please do not bump the shields up on his prime.

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Le 03/07/2019 à 04:13, AntiMomentum a dit :

I won't bother arguing the rest of your points, but this is categorically false. Old Defy was actually the best and easiest tanking abilitiy in the game. Even Inaros and Baruuk can get one-shot from any common enemies eventually. With Old Defy the more damage you took the better because you would also gain energy, WITH Defy active, and get invinciblity on EACH activation.Look up Wukong Defy immortality loop

Fact is that old defy along with rage mod was leading to some truly immortal Wukong since he was constantly revived with enough invul duration and he also was able to get a lot of energy back thanks to all of that damages. Relying upon more armor sort of killed rage viability and relying upon two skills instead of one only to be able to endure more damages is a huge loss. I wish defy alone makes him more durable and cloud walker helps with something else than dull health resplenishment. Now we have two skills to make him tougher instead of one, and tbh they're far from being as effective, and since it doesn't make Wukong funnier i only see that as a bif nerf along with loss gameplay wise.

Plus defy is now highly unreliable, you can never know if enemies will actually be able to shoot at you so you can't rely much upon the armor buff either. At least old defy was working fine, there was no "random" factor - And we weren't locked in some fancy animation so surviving better wasn't preventing us from actually playing the game. I don't even understand why both the player and the clone are casting defy, it doesn't make any sense - they definitely could have made the clone use defy alone if present. Redundant and not much reliable powers aren't what Wukong needed.

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Il y a 18 heures, CarrotSalad a dit :

I dont consider having to buff your combat stats every 20 seconds "interactive" or fun. I cant stand it when games do this. It just makes every clunky and repeatedly destroys any hope of having a nice flow of combat.

That's how Chroma works and tbh i don't think that many people find that really fun. The way Gara can reset her timer while using her 4th is way better and at some point i wish Chroma or Harrow could borrow that kind of synergies.

Wukong's armor buff should have been managed the same way Atlas does, not like a temporary buff to be recast every X sec. Or at least Wukong shouldn't loose all of his armor at once, especially since we're already struggling to get more than 50 armor in most situations.

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