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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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36 minutes ago, AntiMomentum said:

Valkyr comes no where close to Old Defy. At all. Yes Valkyr can restore health while invincible, but so can Rolling Guard with Old Defy active and simply taking more damage (plus energy regen). Due to enemy speed also increasing at levels where any of this actually matters it's a non-issue. Valkyr can't use Rage/Hunter Adrenaline to gain enegy with 4th. Old Defy did. It was truly endless damage tanking, regardless of enemy level, forever, and gaining energy doing so futher fueling Defy.

Along with fueling any other abilities to spare.

keep in mind Rolling Guard simply requires you to roll rather than needing to find somewhere safe. Even if we take that out of the picture, I now refer you to Nezha and Rhino having an absorbtion mulitipler rather than a cap anyways.And iframes to deal with recasting for both frames. They can both avoid one-shots at endless levels. Current Wukong can't even with Rolling Guard. 😕  Remove the cap at least.

She can't while it is active this is true, because she is purely immune to damage while active; Wukong is not. Defy could gain energy yes, using Rage or Hunter Adrenaline, similar to how one might use Oberon's Renewal in fact - toggles disable energy gain from most non-energy Orb sources but not from them due to their entire purpose so far, but perhaps that could change in the future. That said, your point was two-fold; interactivity which being completely invulnerable or unable to be harmed as Valkyr and Invisibility offer thus negating the value of claiming Defy offers non-interactive play. Second, that Defy energy could be gained through energy leeches and other energy counters beating Wukong senseless; this is false, as such enemies disable Rage gains while alive, something that most toggle warframes find frustrating if they can not kill them fast enough.

I was discussing this earlier in the thread, but in the current 2.977 melee environment, to be able to able to be hurt if Valkyr wants to refill she can just switch from her Exalted Claws - DE Steve deliberately pointed out that it disables her invulnerability when not active while keeping up the drain and with her already impressive armor, further pumped often enough with either her Warcry and mods, she can actually survive outside of her pure invulnerability while Wukong can not if drained, magnetized, nullied, or comba/slowva harried. While no warframe likes those kind of all-out warframe ability counters, Wukong being able to take a hit with his average life, higher than average shields, but low armor outside his Defy was a joke and really that is true of most ability focused warframes as Wukong was, and still is now just in a constant spam of your abilities instead of keeping on the toggle. No, if someone was trying to argue that Wukong needed to get changed solely on interaction, there are many other warframes, particularly the entire stealth aspect of the design; that would need to get gutted, and of course Valkyr.

I would however agree that I find no harm in removing the otherwise seemingly arbitrary cap on armor that Wukong's melee Absorb can give him. Seems to be little reason for it other than just trying to prevent getting to that Valkyr level of armor resistance.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Shpow said:

Instead it's actually useful, is good for spy, and gives healing. Why is it out of place? Why is it 'unnecessary'? You have a literally infinite supply of energy now.

It's not good for Spy and I can say this 100% after playing around with it in those missions. Two seconds of Cloud and dropping out right into a laser grid is not useful. The heal is out of place and unecesary, because Cloud Walker was never the healing ability originally in Wukongs kit (that was Defy) and we already have a lot of ways to heal our frames already.

21 hours ago, Shpow said:

More interactive is better.

This is an opinion I disagree with 110%. We already have enough interaction with the game through Wukong's new Defy and Primal Fury. It's not a crime to have a few abilities/frames that maybe don't require so much schizophrenic micro-management.

21 hours ago, Shpow said:

Wukong had less interaction before than Inaros, and Inaros at least has a decent kit.

OldKong actually had more interaction than Inaros. At least with Old Defy you had to use it again every now and then. With a properly built Inaros, all you need to use is Scarab Armour once and you're golden for the entire mission. Talk about a "Set it and forget it" ability.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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On 2019-06-29 at 3:10 AM, (XB1)Adaptabilty said:

Are you serious? I don't understand the people in this community. It's a relatively free heal. Take away all the other perceived negatives from the rework, how is this anything but a positive. Also, if he didn't have this heal, his survivability, with the changes as a whole would be way worse. It's a heal, take it or leave it. I swear on in warframe will people complain about a healing mechanic for their character, especially in a non pvp game. 

You leave out the detail where the heal was used to justify a nerf to an ability, so no it's not "anything but a positive". The heal quite frankly did not need to be stapled to Cloud Walker. It could simply have been part of his new Defy, which would make sense since his Old Defy was the original healing ability.

Cloud Walker needed it's speed boosted. That is all. The healing mechanic could have been part of another of his abilities like Defy or even Primal Fury.

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I dont consider having to buff your combat stats every 20 seconds "interactive" or fun. I cant stand it when games do this. It just makes every clunky and repeatedly destroys any hope of having a nice flow of combat.

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On 2019-06-13 at 12:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:


Statistic Changes

  • Health will be increased from 100 to 150 (at max rank increased from 300 to 450).
  • Shield will be decreased from 125 to 100 (at max rank decreased from 375 to 300).
    • Why? Since Wukong’s new kit now involves an armour buff, relying more on his health will enable a better synergy.
  • Energy will be increased from 100 to 120 (at max rank 150 to 180).
  • Sprint will be increased from .95 to 1.0.

 

I love the rework but if the leaked stats for Wukong prime are correct I will be sad. The shield bump is a terrible idea and works against the synergy you mention above. I already use a key on him to remove shields. Give him anything else, or nothing.  Just please do not bump the shields up on his prime.

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Le 03/07/2019 à 04:13, AntiMomentum a dit :

I won't bother arguing the rest of your points, but this is categorically false. Old Defy was actually the best and easiest tanking abilitiy in the game. Even Inaros and Baruuk can get one-shot from any common enemies eventually. With Old Defy the more damage you took the better because you would also gain energy, WITH Defy active, and get invinciblity on EACH activation.Look up Wukong Defy immortality loop

Fact is that old defy along with rage mod was leading to some truly immortal Wukong since he was constantly revived with enough invul duration and he also was able to get a lot of energy back thanks to all of that damages. Relying upon more armor sort of killed rage viability and relying upon two skills instead of one only to be able to endure more damages is a huge loss. I wish defy alone makes him more durable and cloud walker helps with something else than dull health resplenishment. Now we have two skills to make him tougher instead of one, and tbh they're far from being as effective, and since it doesn't make Wukong funnier i only see that as a bif nerf along with loss gameplay wise.

Plus defy is now highly unreliable, you can never know if enemies will actually be able to shoot at you so you can't rely much upon the armor buff either. At least old defy was working fine, there was no "random" factor - And we weren't locked in some fancy animation so surviving better wasn't preventing us from actually playing the game. I don't even understand why both the player and the clone are casting defy, it doesn't make any sense - they definitely could have made the clone use defy alone if present. Redundant and not much reliable powers aren't what Wukong needed.

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Il y a 18 heures, CarrotSalad a dit :

I dont consider having to buff your combat stats every 20 seconds "interactive" or fun. I cant stand it when games do this. It just makes every clunky and repeatedly destroys any hope of having a nice flow of combat.

That's how Chroma works and tbh i don't think that many people find that really fun. The way Gara can reset her timer while using her 4th is way better and at some point i wish Chroma or Harrow could borrow that kind of synergies.

Wukong's armor buff should have been managed the same way Atlas does, not like a temporary buff to be recast every X sec. Or at least Wukong shouldn't loose all of his armor at once, especially since we're already struggling to get more than 50 armor in most situations.

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On 2019-07-03 at 7:58 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

It's not good for Spy and I can say this 100% after playing around with it in those missions. Two seconds of Cloud and dropping out right into a laser grid is not useful. The heal is out of place and unecesary, because Cloud Walker was never the healing ability originally in Wukongs kit (that was Defy) and we already have a lot of ways to heal our frames already.

This is an opinion I disagree with 110%. We already have enough interaction with the game through Wukong's new Defy and Primal Fury. It's not a crime to have a few abilities/frames that maybe don't require so much schizophrenic micro-management.

OldKong actually had more interaction than Inaros. At least with Old Defy you had to use it again every now and then. With a properly built Inaros, all you need to use is Scarab Armour once and you're golden for the entire mission. Talk about a "Set it and forget it" ability.

 

On 2019-07-03 at 8:03 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

You leave out the detail where the heal was used to justify a nerf to an ability, so no it's not "anything but a positive". The heal quite frankly did not need to be stapled to Cloud Walker. It could simply have been part of his new Defy, which would make sense since his Old Defy was the original healing ability.

Cloud Walker needed it's speed boosted. That is all. The healing mechanic could have been part of another of his abilities like Defy or even Primal Fury.

 

19 hours ago, CarrotSalad said:

I dont consider having to buff your combat stats every 20 seconds "interactive" or fun. I cant stand it when games do this. It just makes every clunky and repeatedly destroys any hope of having a nice flow of combat.

Defy doesn't buff 'combat stats' other than armour. It's there to change the tide if you're getting overwhelmed and give you some armour to do it with. You really never need to spam it until you start reaching level 250+

On 2019-07-03 at 4:13 AM, AntiMomentum said:

I won't bother arguing the rest of your points, but this is categorically false. Old Defy was actually the best and easiest tanking abilitiy in the game. Even Inaros and Baruuk can get one-shot from any common enemies eventually. With Old Defy the more damage you took the better because you would also gain energy, WITH Defy active, and get invinciblity on EACH activation.Look up Wukong Defy immortality loop

You could be surrounded by level 1000 leeches and as long as you're actually taking damage you would still never die, even from one-shots that would kill Inaros or Baruuk at that level, and would drain Rhino/Nezha's energy like nothing. Literally 1.25 energy per second and Rolling Guard ensures you don't even need to hide at recast after like 14 activations. 

This also means as long as you were taking damage with old defy active that not only would you not die, but you could use it to keep his 4th active nigh endlessly as well....
And I say "nigh" endlessly because there are some exceptions. Such as a Mesa killing enemies before they can damage you, but at high enough levels where they could still get in range to drain some energy. At even higher levels enemies would still be able to reach you despite Mesa. So you could get energy anyways at that point.

Old Defy alone was like a Chinese finger trap. Literally the more damage you took the better, regardless of enemy level, endlessly. Imagine that with the rest of his current kit.

There is no reason for New Defy to have an armor cap at all. Even without a cap, it's still ultimately a nerf on Defy but gives roughly the same amount of interaction as with the cap anyways.

Especially since both Nezha and Rhino have damage absorbtion MULTIPLIERS, rather than caps at 1500, when the Last Immortal does not. He can't even tank, dps, or cc better than other frames. His best niche is SPY now. Both Rhino and Nezha can give damage multipliers for the entire squad rather than currenty Defy for just Wukong himself lmao and sill easily tank more damage. 

Except energy is restored as a % of dmg to health, not dmg, so it had diminishing returns. You always had to reset after a couple of deaths. 

 

I was aware of how his build worked, it's the build I had. It could go for ages on endless. But it was boring and I didn't care about the frame once I got other, more fun frames. Like, sure you could tank a lot, but you're also playing Wukong. Balancing a frame around an ability that was being used to hit level 1000 on endless.. meh, that's the nichest of niche in Warframe. 

 

If they kept old defy with his current kit it would be broken as hell. It is a nerf on defy, but having Wukong be fun again is way more important imho. 

 

 

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Been testing the new Wukong by using him to solo almost all the sorties, I feel that the rework is generally good.

I just wish that the new Defy can be more interactive (e.g. Wukong is allowed to attack in Defy).

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Finally got to yhis after a bit of a break...

So, my Wukong was built for Iron Vault + glavie nuke combo.

Is the build still viable with new 1?

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3 minutes ago, RDN-5263 said:

Finally got to yhis after a bit of a break...

So, my Wukong was built for Iron Vault + glavie nuke combo.

Is the build still viable with new 1?

Given that Iron Vault doesn't exist now because of the new #1... no?

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-06-13 at 1:38 PM, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

To celebrate the changes, all players who currently own Wukong will receive 3 Forma!

👍

Edited by VGShrine
Mistake on description

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I am enjoying using the reworked wukong, rapidly becoming a favourite.  I would like an augment to use cloud walker as a channeled ability.  It is my favourite movement skill in the game, needing to recast in the middle of traveling somewhere every 5 seconds can get annoying.  Enveloping winds as an augment is pretty useless now so maybe a good change for that augment?

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I wish that the Cloud effect in Cloud Walker can be toned down, as it obscures the visibility in many environments.

Thanks.

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On 2019-07-04 at 5:31 AM, Shpow said:

 

Balancing a frame around an ability that was being used to hit level 1000 on endless.. meh, that's the nichest of niche in Warframe. 

 

If they kept old defy with his current kit it would be broken as hell. It is a nerf on defy, but having Wukong be fun again is way more important imho. 

 

 

Level 1000 enemies aren't even that high and endless endurance runs aren't that niche. Just look at the leaderboards near the end of the week. You can get close to that level with just a basic 40 or 50 dig heiracon farm. In between new content it's one of the few things to do once you've done everything else or everything you care to do. Some people just do it to farm.

Old Defy aside though let me ask you some questions about current Defy. Let's assume we removed the armor cap but kept the rest of Defy the same as it is now:

Would removing the armor cap be "broken as hell" to you as well? If so, why

Would removing the armor cap make Wukong any less fun to you? If so, why

Is there any reason to you why there should be an armor cap?

 

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So, due to rework Wukong became my most-used warframe after the long state "MR-only" (cuz of slow and boring gameplay). And after playing him a bit I can say:

Passive.
I'd personally prefer previos variant or more constancy in current. 
(Maybe - a way to recharge this passive and remove buffs from it in that case. Like Nidus can do this. Or make buffs more constant if not.)
But I understand that someone like it current state and I for me passive is more a usefull feature rather than something critical.

Celestial Twin. 
I like it, much better than Iron Jab. It's fun to have your bro with you. And he is very useful for low-mid lvl, when our buddy can stay alive. Also he can be a little pocket Rhino with Celestial Stomp augment. Actualy he's good enough with melee or a bow, for example. AI need to be much better, but since it's an overal problem (despite he has own AI) - can't blame him for that.

Cloud Walker.
Perfect. It's fast, heals, ignore lasers, stuns enemies. Even with so little duration it's incredible better and more usefull than before. 
As for augment - useless unless the ability would be able to catch and heal allies as it can with a twin.

Defy.
Almost useless. The only useful thing here - invulnerability phase. That's all. Because when you're facing low-mid lvl enemies you don't need this 1.5k armor buff. Just use your 2 when needed. When you're facing realy high lvl enemies - 1.5k armor won't save you. Damage? Use something else - it would be faster. So - invulnerability phase is good, anything else - nope.
IMO - should be changed.
Remove armor cap, or let it restore energy instead, or make Restraint-like resourse for Primal Fury and let it fills it, or let it give you damage buff, or let it restore passive charges, or something else, that would be  really usefull.
And I'm not asking for revert changes and get old Defy back. I'm asking for making this Defy better.   

Primal Fury.
Good changes. Slash is nice. 
Actualy - I'd prefer evenly IPS. Where to get Puncture? First: You actualy can pierce something with a stick. Second: It's an freaking energy staff made from the void energy, why not? How did Valkyr makes Impact damage with CLAWS? But It's only my opinion.

Energy drain is horrible. You have 5 enegry drain per second with 180 (195) energy pool. Should be much less. Excal have 2.5 ED with 150 (225) EP. (Don't take Valkyr, since she has another mechanics in ED with her 4). Or shoud be with Defy-replenishable Restraint-like meter.
Augment is ok.

Keep testing my new buddy, taken from the old dusty shelf.

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As someone who loves Warframe. And Wukong. I used him of course for his Defy which was his purpose. I have every single warframe and built each one for certain purposes depending on what mission I'm using. (Everyone should be doing that. Obviously)

If DE wanted to make him more enjoyable to play they should have

1) Kept Defy and his passive the same.
2) Change his cloudwalk to him riding an actual cloud. Give him movement speed for the duration and ability to fly (obviously). But take away invisibility, he never needed it.


But since they have already reworked him.


DE should rework him again! And get rid of his Defy and change it to Shapeshifting/Transformation like in the lore. I would suggest at least 2 forms. Kavat for stealth, Kubrow for attack. Room for other transformations. This should be a toggle.

And/Or,

Change his cloudwalk to a toggle buff so he has speed while on a cloud but take invisibility and invulnerability away. This should be a toggle.

And/Or

Make his first skill a buff that summon clones that only uses his staff as he does damage. Each clone only lasts a certain amount of time but will attack nearby enemies. But max out at at least 5, he's meant to have an army of clones not just one. This makes it hard for spies or stealth missions but great for others.


This will make Wukong's skills toggle buffs  (first complete toggle warframe) causing the player to choose between which ones to activate or sustain along with his exalted. This gives him a higher degree of difficulty (or not since all his abilities are toggled, but possibly due to management of energy,) as well as making him more fun and suitable for different missions based on the build.

On a side note: I've always wanted to fight side by side with my Kavat as a fellow Kavat and Khora doesn't count.

And DE should allow players to customize their transformations XD.

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After using Wukong almost exclusively since the rework, I have 2 suggestions:

1) Free Wukong from the small Defy window (like Ash in Blade Storm).

2) Allow the Twin use other weapons when Wukong uses Primal Fury.

Thanks.

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