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[DE]SpaceySarah

Dev Workshop: Revisiting Wukong

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Time to be blunt. This is a trash move to sneakily increase your sales for the next prime access. Skipping vauban and chroma so that you can work on wukong to me means chroma and vauban won't get their rework if we support wukong sales. If we buy prime access, then you succeeded, and so you'd surely repeat this act. Chroma and vauban prime access has already passed, so to you, there is less business value, and I understand that. That is why I personally won't buy prime access anymore. Not until the fairness train comes back.

 

Also limbo rework still sucks. Don't overthink this and just make rift not affect ally attacks. I doesnt matter if enemy or warframe is in opposite side of rift. If it prevents damage, its bad design. I mean warframe abilities work this way, why not weapons? 

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Passive's inconsistency isn't very appealing, granted we shouldn't have to take advantage of it altogether, I'd have enjoyed something that's constantly reusable instead of 3 safeguards with random buffs that we might never activate.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)MJ-Cena7 said:

If its anything like valkyr/ember/revenant energy requirment wukong will be doomed 

These frames are S#&$ already and are maily ruined because of the rediculous energy needed to do nothing Specially compared to excal/mesa/wisp who can do the same thing just better 

Rev and valkyr are not remotely ruined if you know how to mod. 

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First, not a Wukong main. Want to get that out there; I'm a melee loving Valkyr noodle first and foremost. I have a few concerns though, especially given how DE normally does reworks and puts numbers on things.

Passive wise, I feel A) a player should be able to guarantee a buff, and B) buffs should be approximately equally useful in the event Wukong would have died. On that note Wukong's passive fails both. First it only triggers 3/5, and second half the buffs are useless in combat. Wukong should not have to gamble on if his death will give him invulnerability/functional invulnerability for 30 seconds, or make energy orbs more effective. I think the 2x loot and orb drops should either be removed (so he only has 3 buffs), or replaced with survival/damage buffs that Wukong would feel good about having in the event he had just died. Wukong should be able to know that when he dies, he will either be harder to kill or kill enemies better for a while.

1 wise the only problem I have is clone survival (clones don't know how to dodge), and the fact that AI is really poor so Wukong likely has to lock himself to melee only to get the clone to function well. Preferably the clone would just always use a ranged weapon as at least then it contributes.

Cloud walker is there. It exists. Only real use is for the heal or spy but let's be honest by the time you have Wukong you have a multitude of other frames capable of cheesing Spy if need be. This will rely entirely on the numbers on the heal, so hopefully those are high enough to be a full heal or close to it (especially since Warframe has a lot of ways to stay healthy now so a weak heal just won't be worth using).

Defy heavily concerns me due to animations and DE's very poor track record when it comes to usable numbers. Damage reflect wise, damage reflect is just outright terrible. Unless you give Wukong +10,000% damage reflect (or realistically even higher then that) it won't function well enough for the reflect to be meaningful. Armor buff sounds nice, but requires the duration be long enough to keep up often/constantly, and the armor amount to actually be useful instead of something like +300 armor or +20% armor. Ideally the "reflect" should be changed to a single Iron Staff spin (using his actual Exalted mods) with the absorbed damage being a multiplicative boost for that single attack. That means absorbing damage actually boosts his damage in a meaningful way, and means the damage isn't terrible to begin with.

Primal Fury sounds good, although I really hope the Drain is Excalibur style, not Valkyr style. Being forced into a Energize set if you want to actually use the cool melee Exalted as a main weapon isn't fun, and a melee Exalted that can't pass through walls is already only as strong as regular high end melee at best and does not deserve a extreme drain. Also personally wish the augment provided even more crit or his Staff's base crit chance was upped, but that's more because if he's using a entire augment slot for crit chance I feel it should be worth it.

 

Again, not a Wukong main but I feel a lot of this rework will heavily rely on decent numbers to be useful. Very concerned since DE doesn't have a good track record when it comes to that, which is why I'm even making a post.

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2 minutes ago, Slush_Magic said:

Passive's inconsistency isn't very appealing, granted we shouldn't have to take advantage of it altogether, I'd have enjoyed something that's constantly reusable instead of 3 safeguards with random buffs that we might never activate.

Im very pleased with the passive. Perfect for Wukongs trickster theme. Plus if u do need it... U get an added bonus with  the not dying aspect. 

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I am not a Wukong main BUT i like what i just read. But as a personal question, it was said on a devstream that Vauban would get a rework, some players want a chroma rework, is Valkyr on your crosshairs for a rework/touch up?

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Posted (edited)

a mission-long cooldown on the passive? randomly assigned (read:unreliable) buffs? that's incredibly bad design. it's a blatant push towards "bitesize" that utterly breaks worth/value for endless gameplay and further alienates those rare players who stay in a mission long enough to reach rotation B... include all methods by default, and make the passive's charges reset every 10 minutes; 10 minutes is s a fairly decent stand-in for average pub mission length, and dying more than 5 times in 10 minutes *should* be punished by having it stick.

Edited by OmegaVitae
originally misunderstood how bad the passive was, edited to reflect how much worse it is than original thought, and the extra changes needed to fix.
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As A Rhino main with Wukong being my secondary... I think this perfectly matches his theme, and sounds very fun. I cant freaking wait!

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These changes look like a lot of fun. I'm excited about the stealth potential, though I wish the possibility of better loot wasn't based on rng. I never play Wukong but I'm pumped to see him after this rework

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9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

That's why you use Gladiator mods.

Buffing it's damage, status chance and giving it slash damage makes absolutely no sense to me to be honest. It does more than enough damage already, and how exactly is a stick going to do slash damage?

I never said to add Slash damage, CO can be useful with other status effects, doing Corrosive/Cold with say, a Zakti to setup other status as an example. And I always assumed the interaction between Gladiator set and exalted weapons was a bug and would eventually be patched out. If not then why dont they just give exalted weapons Blood Rush?

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"Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times."
That feels like a step back in game mechanics and I feel like there should be a way to replenish these charges either on a long timer or as some drop from enemies.

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19 minutes ago, Julian_Skies said:

Second bullet point of Primal Fury, they state it's getting a much higher status chance.

Big oof i must have missed that, ty

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Pandabarrel said:

I never said to add Slash damage

Never said you did, it was an observation on what DE have posted.

3 minutes ago, Pandabarrel said:

And I always assumed the interaction between Gladiator set and exalted weapons was a bug and would eventually be patched out.

There was a bug, this is it's fixed state.

Originally you could effectively "double up" on the gladiator mods, by having 2 Gladiator Vice equipped, one on normal melee and one on your Unique weapon, both adding to the bonus. This was fixed so that only the set mods on your actual weapon add to the set bonus, however the mods can still be equipped on your Unique weapon for their primary effect. If the set bonus wasn't intended to be allowed to work with the weapons, then the change would have been to simply remove the interaction altogether, instead of fixing the mods doubling up.

Edited by DeMonkey
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Defy

  • Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.

So this basically means that Defy will have a staff-spinning animation that... does no damage at high levels.

Damage reflection has never been a viable option in this game, since enemies at mid-level or higher have WAY more bulk than damage. Defy's staff spin needs some form of scaling-- e.g. the staff-spinning attack acts as an Iron Staff swing in terms of damage (with mods, crits, procs, combo counter, etc. all accounted for), and Defy's stored damage acts as a multiplier for its final damage.

The rest of the rework looks awesome, though! 

 

EDIT:

I'm especially looking forward to this combo:

2 hours ago, [DE]SpaceySarah said:

Primal Fury

  • Damage for Wukong and his clone is redistributed for a more powerful feel, with a much higher status chance, larger base range, and some slash.

Cloud Walker

  • Wukong evaporates into a fast-moving cloud of mist that will temporarily daze and paralyze enemies in his path.

I really hope this means what I think it means.

JmIfsko.png

Edited by SortaRandom
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3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Never said you did, it was an observation on what DE have posted.

Ah yeah, I missed that in the OP. He does have the energy bits at the end of his staff, maybe those could do slash damage. Thanks for the clarification on the Gladiator set.

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These changes sound really fun. I'm really excited, and anxious to try the new rework!!! 😄

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First readover looks promising. I'm hoping the Defy changes etc will echo the Nezha rework in that what may initially appear as a nerf actually ends up being pretty a powerful upgrade.

Not at all convinced at the RNG nature of the passive that only triggers when he defies death coupled with it's limitation of only 3 times per mission. I suppose the limit is to prevent cheesing with self damage weapons until you get the buff you want, but in that case why not slap a long cooldown on it each time it activates (2 minutes or something) and remove the 3 per mission limit?

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Changing how defy works feels like a slap on the face of those that actually liked wukong, I know the kit was lackluster, but changing his iconic ability is too much. I bet and hope a lot of people will like appreciate him more now, but those that already did will be left with a lackluster and unreliable passive that can only work three times/death on an previous endurance /gunplay frame.

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This rework’s a no-go from me. He still hasn’t been given a real theme?? (And no, being the “Chinese” frame isn’t a real theme. Let’s be real here.) he’s got no kit cohesion, and fills 0 roles in the game.

 

 - his passive is a joke

 - his 1 is his best ability, and the only one I like and think is actually good.

 - his 2 now requires you to spam the ability. It’s literally all other survival abilities, but worse. Why spam 2, when you could... oh, I dunno... just kill the enemy shooting you?

 - his 3 does nothing still. It’s all other invisibility options but bad. Nothing was changed.

 - his 4 now officially joins the ranks of the many exalted weapons that either outright suck at high levels, or has less range and damage than Mesa.

 

RIP Wukong, they tried. Maybe next time you’ll get a more cohesive, narrow theme. As is? Wukong isn’t a dps frame, is a barely passable tank, has crap for cc potential, doesn’t have support abilities, and can’t defend objectives. A JOAT who can’t even do that.

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2 minutes ago, Boboberto said:

Changing how defy works feels like a slap on the face of those that actually liked wukong

No it doesn't.

2 minutes ago, Boboberto said:

but those that already did will be left with a lackluster and unreliable passive that can only work three times/death on an previous endurance /gunplay frame.

Oh yeah, because 5 seconds combo instead of 3 made such a huge difference in endurance runs, especially whilst using a gun.

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Sounds good! Ofc we need to try it first, but reading about it 1 2 and 4 are interesting. I don't know about Defy. Don't get me wrong, i think it was a cheese ability and changing it is totally legit, i just don't like how it turned out. You said you want to keep invulnerability, but you already have it on 2 (while also healing) and passive (which is the other meh thing imho, cool concept but RNG is never a good choice), and the ability itself feels boring and... useless? Yes, you get an armor buff but you ensnare yourself and the reflect is a mechanic i don't really enjoy. Would totally trade the invulnerability for something else. Still that's IMHO so, we will see!

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Celestial Twin

Quote

Press ability again to command Wukong’s clone to attack a specific target with increased damage.

Most of the issues I could have had with this ability are solved right here.  Nice work!

Cloud Walker

Quote

These changes make the Ability good for repositioning, more well-rounded - and WAY faster.

New players have parkour.  Vets have parkour + operator dashes.  For any mobility option to really sell itself it should be faster than parkour but not neccesarily faster than void dashing.  For short term movement as long as Cloud Walker and its animation > parkour travel speed this alone will make it worthwhile.  Consider giving it momentum that's similar to Titania's 'kill enemies/go faster' Razorwing mod.  Also I would love to come out of Cloudwalker doing a slide dash, slam attack, aerial attack, or gunfire.  Have either of these actions cancel Cloudwalker.

Defy

Quote

Defy will now taunt enemies while Wukong and his clone gain temporary invulnerability with reduced movement speed. All damage is captured, stored, and dealt back in a single furious long range staff spin attack.

Damage reflection in Warframe is a joke without ridiculous damage reflection buffs like +10000%. As long as Defy has an outrageous buff like this it will be barely okay.  However, what happens to Wukong after Defy ends and he is still the target of high level mobs?  He dies making Defy another subreddit thread of 'Do the Devs Ever Test Their Reworks?'.  Solve this by Defy's blast have a chance to jam all weapons so Wukong isn't 1 shotted soon as Defy ends.

Primal Fury

All exalted weapons need to compete with Blood Rush + Body Count which outpace them 9/10 times.  So unless these combos have insane damage or prefarably... insane reach... Skana w/mandatory mods > Primal Fury.  Experiment with redonk range and have some kind of aerial attack that replaces the old Iron Jab mod that launches Wukong way, WAY, up into the air.

Passive

Quote

5 Levels of Immortality: Wukong has learned 5 techniques to avoid death whenever he takes fatal damage. Wukong will be randomly allowed 3 of these techniques per mission to avoid death 3 times. Each technique will make Wukong invulnerable for 2 seconds, restore 50% health, and provide a unique buff.
Primal Forces: Triple elemental damage for 60 seconds
Heavenly Cloak: Invisibility for 30 seconds
Cosmic Armour: Invulnerable for 30 seconds
Monkey Luck: Extra loot drops for 60 seconds
Sly Alchemy: Orbs 4x more effective for 60 seconds


Reading this caused me to Google if Canada legalized weed.  It did. And it shows.  I love this.  It looks like someone REALLY enjoyed designing this while doing something perfectly legal in Canada.  Have this person redesign all the passives in the game, name them, and make mods for them.  Favorite part of the rework.  🙂

 

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Everything here sounds... Alright? I still have 2 gripes with these changes overall, mainly the following :

- the cloud walker augment is distressingly awful, and really needs to be improved. 

- there needs to be SOME way, however complex, demanding or contriving, for wukong to get his resurrections back. Otherwise, it'd just be a worse nidus passive, and the rest of his new kit, while promising, doesn't exactly strike me as ''nidus tier''. 

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