Harrow needs adjustments

[panpolewacz]

Hello, as a Harrow main i wanted to suggest a minor adjustment that would make him a bit more reliable and more fun to play.
In my opinion there are a few small problems with using 4th ability 

-Every teammate counters it (If you want to block dmg to use your ability then every teammate with a murderous intent disturbs your playstyle )
-It encourages player to not play (After using 4th ability you have to not fight in order to make your buff usable but not fighting is not something a space ninja would do so it defeats fun from playing)
-DMG buff is not reliable on starchart lvls (Low healthpool and low dmg of starchart enemies makes blocking dmg using 4th a pure lottery. Sometimes you will get that 200% buff and sometimes it will be impossible with your teammates )

Those problems make using 4th ability a bit not fun to use but i have one idea that could make it better and not op.

In my opinion a good adjustment would be counting sacrificed shields (Penance) during Covenant as a dmg blocked. Imagine harrow having 2400 shields stacked. After using Covenant and Penance he would have 0 shields and 2400 dmg blocked (depending on a build it could be a great crit buff). That would make a great synergy between those two abilities, encourage player to use all Harrow skills, make it easier to stack those dmg numbers with dps squad, make it less random and make him less dependent on teammates playstyle.

TL;DR: Count sacrificed shields during Covenant as a dmg blocked.

[TehGrief]

1 hour ago, panpolewacz said:

Count sacrificed shields during Covenant as a dmg blocked.

While I am normally of the belief that some of Harrow's abilities could be tweaked to make them a little easier to use within a party, Covenant would be the last thing that I believe needs to be changed.

Currently, the ability functions as a type of "get-out-of-jail-free card" - ignoring both damage and status effects, while also providing a very hefty Critical Chance bonus. It is safe to say that the ability would have been strong enough had it just provided a temporary invulnerability to damage and status effects.

From my own personal experience playing Harrow, it isn't very often that I don't cap out my critical chance buff from Retaliation while using Covenant. Perhaps try either specializing into more Ability Duration (so that the period of type accumulating damage is longer) or Ability Strength (to gain higher crit chance buffs / damage taken); these are two of the most natural ways to get a more consistent Retaliation buff.

[panpolewacz]

As a Harrow my role is to keep all my buffs active. Using 4th skill as a panic button is not using Harrows full potential. My problem with 4 is not that i have too low ability strength or duration my problem is that shooting counters it. My problem is that at starchart missions i have to stand and do nothing to block as much dmg as i can. It is counter intuitive for everyone because not shooting is the last thing warframe player wants to do.

 

[EinheriarJudith]

4 hours ago, panpolewacz said:

TL;DR: Count sacrificed shields during Covenant as a dmg blocked.

this would fit well with how i use covenant. i always use penance right after using covenant. they could also force all enemies to target and unload on him and after the invincibility phase, send out a pulse wave that jams for 2s.

not shooting is not a problem to me for covenant. its enemies not unloading on me while i sit in front of their faces.

Edited June 13, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[panpolewacz]

Thanks for your opinion
 

15 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

not shooting is not a problem to me for covenant. its enemies not unloading on me while i sit in front of their faces.

Its basically the same problem from another perspective. They won't unload on harrow if there is anyone that kills them.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

~If allies are killing consistently then they clearly don't need the damage boost or protection.

~Nope.  If you're using it properly you use it to save people.

~Star chart content is push over content.  You rarely need the damage boost let alone the extra survival.

Harrow is a support that is used for very specific situations and not general usage.  If you want your abilities to be consistent across situations then you take a more general use support.  Harrow exists to give people stuff when they need it.

[panpolewacz]

I can't agree with you. Warframe is made to have fun and mods are here to make "every" warframe viable on starchart missions so you can have fun playing with everything. Harrow is really well made warframe that can provide energy, damage, survivability and cc to whole squad so harrow can be used as a general support. Im not saying that he is underpowered im just saying that one small adjustment would make him a bit more fun to play. With my build i can do every mission and be viable general support so i can't agree with

,, Harrow is a support that is used for very specific situations and not general usage. "

I am Harrow main because i think he is really well made and i like that micromanagement but when i play Harrow and i want to have fun using his 4th ability i need to be in premade squad or go solo because every player just counters my dmg blocking.

,, Nope.  If you're using it properly you use it to save people. "

Using it properly ? Covenant is not just a panic button that you click when you think that you are dying. Covenant has a great synergy with Penance so using Covenant only as a protection to save people is not using Covenant's full potential. For you 4th skill may be only to save people but for me it's only half of the truth about Harrows Covenant. As a Harrow main i want to have every buff active and that's why i want to adjust his 4th ability so it can be a little more reliable and more fun to use not only for squadmates but for Harrow players too.

,, Star chart content is push over content.  You rarely need the damage boost let alone the extra survival.  "

You are right, starchart content is push over content but it is the main content in the game and i want to have fun while killing countless enemies during starchart missions. That small adjustment is not making Harrow op at starchart lvls and is not making him endless viable. That small adjustment in my opinion is making harrow more fun to play in the main warframe content.

[(XBOX)Q 2 K O]

Idk, Harrow’s 4 is pretty nice where it is. It doesn’t encourage you not to play. If I’ve used my 4 and I’m in the invincible phase, you can be sure I’m channeling Thurible in the faces of my enemies and getting a Penance stack or two in there as well. Harrow’s abilities all work in very nice cycle, I like it, very good design imo. If you really want to red crit Lv. 40 enemies and such just run a ton of power strength to ensure you get the damage you need to reach the cap. 

[EinheriarJudith]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)Q 2 K O said:

Idk, Harrow’s 4 is pretty nice where it is. It doesn’t encourage you not to play. If I’ve used my 4 and I’m in the invincible phase, you can be sure I’m channeling Thurible in the faces of my enemies and getting a Penance stack or two in there as well. Harrow’s abilities all work in very nice cycle, I like it, very good design imo. If you really want to red crit Lv. 40 enemies and such just run a ton of power strength to ensure you get the damage you need to reach the cap. 

that moment when you run into a group of enemies and use his 4, then they just turn around and scatter instead of unloading on you.

the AI in this game is borderline insanly bad when it comes to relying on it to get buffs or do anything meaningful.

covenant needs to override enemy AI forcing them to unload on him, and anyone under its effects.

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

I would say that at most his 4th could also aggro enemies into attacking him and not so much team mates while it's building up.

[Annnoth]

I find that if your team mates are making it hard to get ghe highest possible buff, you really dont need it because they are clearly handling the situation fine enough. 

The way i see it, the crit boost is primarily a reward for good use of the invincibility. Once you used the invincibility to escape, revive, whatever you need to do, youll have a juicy crit boost to take care of anything you need dead.

[TheGreenFellow]

I feel Harrow's problem is his kit only being useful so long as there are hordes of enemies to victimize.

I wish he had some manner of movement ability (always a fan of those) - like if you press 1 again quickly after casting his 1, you teleport to the location of his afterimage.

I wish the health & energy restoration buffs would be on *hits* to the head, not *kills*. This could have a reduced effect against certain enemies, but not "no effect".

I wish his 1 would have at least a *small* slowing effect on the ever-expanding list of 'ability-immune' enemies.

His 4th ability I just wish would offer some damage resistance in the post-invulnerability phase, but maybe that would be too strong; I wouldn't mind giving up some of the damage buff to compensate though.

[TehGrief]

2 hours ago, Annnoth said:

 The way i see it, the crit boost is primarily a reward for good use of the invincibility. Once you used the invincibility to escape, revive, whatever you need to do, youll have a juicy crit boost to take care of anything you need dead.

That is a perfect way to describe it.

Retribution is intended to be a "payback" mechanic, you trigger it when you know there is going to be higher amounts of damage coming in to you (and your squad). It really shouldn't be treated as a mindless ability that you just recast every time the duration ends to grant a buff, that was never how it was intended to be used.

 

14 hours ago, panpolewacz said:

Covenant is not just a panic button that you click when you think that you are dying. Covenant has a great synergy with Penance so using Covenant only as a protection to save people is not using Covenant's full potential. For you 4th skill may be only to save people but for me it's only half of the truth about Harrows Covenant. As a Harrow main i want to have every buff active and that's why i want to adjust his 4th ability so it can be a little more reliable and more fun to use not only for squadmates but for Harrow players too.

I certainly don't want to tell you how to play the game, you obviously enjoy this play-loop that you've gotten used to. However, looking at this play-style from a mechanical perspective, since Covenant cannot be recast while it is active you run the risk of having it on "cool-down" (Retribution buff) when you may really need it (teammate taking large amounts of damage, boss is winding up for larger attack, environmental hazard is incoming, etc.). 

While Covenant is not JUST a panic button (as you've mentioned), it operates mechanically better when used as one.

You may see his Retribution buff as beneficial (and it certainly is - in very specific situations), keep in mind that not every public squad member will be built for Critical Chance // Damage. There are a lot of weapons in the game that the maximum Retribution buff of +200% chance still won't reasonably benefit.

 

14 hours ago, panpolewacz said:

starchart content is push over content but it is the main content in the game and i want to have fun while killing countless enemies during starchart missions.

I think the issue remains that the content you are doing just isn't scaling properly with your intentions. You want to be blocking huge amounts of damage to max out your buff - and that's fine, honestly, that's "fun" in your opinion - but you have to be realistic... you can't really find what you're looking for in the starchart difficulty.

If you really want that buff to get higher, faster, I would recommend listening to the advice that myself and others in this thread have given you; specialize into more Ability Duration (so that the period of type accumulating damage is longer) or Ability Strength (to gain higher crit chance buffs / damage taken).

Hopefully they release the difficulty sliders for starchart missions that will allow increased difficulty; allowing you to play closer to how the mechanics were intended.

[panpolewacz]

6 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

covenant needs to override enemy AI forcing them to unload on him, and anyone under its effects.

That is a really good idea.

 

2 hours ago, TehGrief said:

Retribution is intended to be a "payback" mechanic, you trigger it when you know there is going to be higher amounts of damage coming in to you (and your squad). It really shouldn't be treated as a mindless ability that you just recast every time the duration ends to grant a buff, that was never how it was intended to be used.

Ok i see your point and now i understand the difference in our mindsets when it comes to Harrows playstyle. When we talk about starchart content where ,, You rarely need the damage boost let alone the extra survival. " i think about a bit selfish Harrow. When enemies are too weak to be dangerous for my teammates i see my covenant as a way of having fun with red crits because as Knight Raime said they don't need my protection. ,, I certainly don't want to tell you how to play the game, you obviously enjoy this play-loop that you've gotten used to. " You are right, i enjoy constantly using all of my abilities and i know that it is not the best way to use covenant in endgame lvls so i do it in starchart lvls to just have fun. In conclusion i know that when my team needs me just using covenant to get crits is not the best idea but when my team does not need my help i don't see any problems with that. My suggestion was to make Harrows 4 a more fun to play for a bit selfish Harrow at lower lvls and it would not change anything at higher lvls.