Female vs Male frames

[Cubewano]

11 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

I kinda agree with this. Who cares if it is sexist man. It's a game, FFS.

Games become crap when political agendas get inserted into them.

Inputting sexist notions into a game is the insertion of a political agenda though. Things aren't only political when they go against your beliefs. 

[990k]

Alright so what the hell is Vauban supposed to be?

[White_Matter]

Just like real life eh ?

[MythicPulse]

There are currently 40 frames   20 male, 20 female

Banshee has a large AoE that does damage over time and stunlocks many enemies - but she's better used for her support skill that can paint an enemy with bright glowing spots of free crits for multiple multiplicatives of damage.

Equinox has a nuclear option, unquestionably - but she also has a very fast large AoE heal effect and the ability to boost the team's power strength quite significantly.

Frost has a AoE Nuke with a guaranteed Freeze proc that buys you time to kill things the initial damage did not. - he also has a nigh impenetrable bubble of defense, which he is more famous for.

Hydroid can stand a quarter kilometer away from whatever he wants to nuke - then bring down a barrage of corrosive shells or burst out of the ground with a kraken of bonus loot.  but his frame is also very difficult to kill, since he can just melt into the ground at any time.

Why am i writing like this?

Because nuke / tank is a load of bologna and you can play any frame you like.  Mesa's ability to jam guns makes her just not take damage from nearby enemies - but her peacemakers enable her to turn grineer into chunky salsa.  Ash's smoke bomb enable him to just not take damage from enemies, but his bladestorm turns grineer into chunky salsa.  Tanks don't have to stand still and eat a facefull of explosions, Dodge Tank and Stun Tank are both viable interpretations of the archetype, as anyone who played Final Fantasy Tactics can attest - If the effect is the same, an enemy's damage output is mitigated, then the rest is semantics.

[KnightCole]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

Inputting sexist notions into a game is the insertion of a political agenda though. Things aren't only political when they go against your beliefs. 

Theres nothing political about it period.  DE wasnt thinking politics when the made the frames in the first place.  They had an idea for a frame and an idea for a build and it just wound up working out the way it did.  Not everything is about the poor triggery snowflakes who think everything is an affront to their world views.    Now everytime a game comes out, devs have to worry about making equal number of x y z class and genders?  No...all this bs people think everything is political or sexist or whatever...its beyond annoying.  Forum rules strongly advise against saying what it is. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Pillage's range is also really minimal, making sure that any real DPS frames will make sure that all the enemies are already dead.

That's what I meant.

But she is a tank, she suffers the same as any other non-map clear frame.

I use her in the same way as I use Inaros, Nidus, Rev, Rhino, Oberon or Nezha, as a tanky frame focused mostly on melee and debuffs, or the occasional map clear with Rev. The arcane doesnt change much on that because Pillage has simple become muscle memory when playing Hildryn. You use it as you plunge into the enemy horde to have it refill whatever shields you lost before heading towards the next pack. The only thing that can catch her in a bad spot are knockdowns, which there is a quick and easy fix for through exilus.

And if you just have a Moa for her you have a reliable ressurectable source that will replenish your shields whenever they hit 0.

[KnightCole]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But she is a tank, she suffers the same as any other non-map clear frame.

I use her in the same way as I use Inaros, Nidus, Rev, Rhino, Oberon or Nezha, as a tanky frame focused mostly on melee and debuffs, or the occasional map clear with Rev. The arcane doesnt change much on that because Pillage has simple become muscle memory when playing Hildryn. You use it as you plunge into the enemy horde to have it refill whatever shields you lost before heading towards the next pack. The only thing that can catch her in a bad spot are knockdowns, which there is a quick and easy fix for through exilus.

And if you just have a Moa for her you have a reliable ressurectable source that will replenish your shields whenever they hit 0.

Hildryn is literally an invincible frame.  Wonder when she gets nerfed...

[Cubewano]

6 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

Theres nothing political about it period.  DE wasnt thinking politics when the made the frames in the first place.  They had an idea for a frame and an idea for a build and it just wound up working out the way it did.  Not everything is about the poor triggery snowflakes who think everything is an affront to their world views.    Now everytime a game comes out, devs have to worry about making equal number of x y z class and genders?  No...all this bs people think everything is political or sexist or whatever...its beyond annoying.  Forum rules strongly advise against saying what it is. 

I disagree, most anything in life has a political affiliation since politics itself is more or less the perception of life and how it should be handled, to which all things show some reflection on. Now I doubt this was targeted behavior, and I'm hardly calling it out for malice, my point was more to show how entirely redundant the argument is that one side is wrong for pushing a "political agenda" when quite literally all stances are pushing a political stance. You can feel however you want on the matter, but we don't need to be throwing around these faux double standards on who is and isn't justified in getting to have an opinion. 

[Cubewano]

14 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

Hildryn is literally an invincible frame.  Wonder when she gets nerfed...

Randomly in a few years when DE decide it is not a feature and is now a bug obvy. (really though it's such a niche and limited tactic it's pretty much impossible to tell when or if it'll be changed, it doesn't have a genuine enough impact on play to have any certainty)

[Wyrmius_Prime]

17 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

Hildryn is literally an invincible frame.  Wonder when she gets nerfed...

That really doesn't make a frame worthy a nerf because over half of the frames in the game are invincible.

[EmberStar]

10 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Randomly in a few years when DE decide it is not a feature and is now a bug obvy. (really though it's such a niche and limited tactic it's pretty much impossible to tell when or if it'll be changed, it doesn't have a genuine enough impact on play to have any certainty)

It's also a really specific build, from my understanding.  She's a frame based around having massive amounts of shields, and the best way to use / abuse the invincibility mechanic is to build her to have as *little* shields as possible.  The invincibility doesn't reset until her shields recharge, so the fastest way to recharge them without depending on a Sentinel and Guardian is to have basically almost no shields.  So to use it, you're crippling her ability to do anything except "not die."  And it's not *completely* foolproof, since there are a few edge case enemies that can annihilate her health right out from under the shields.  I think maybe toxic Ancients are one.

It's not necessarily an intended build, but neither is Speed Nova.  It's an interesting combination that some people like to use.  If someone wants to go to the effort, the difficulty in setting it up and natural tradeoff in doing so is a sort of balancing factor.  If she was just unkillable out of the box, they'd definitely patch it.  But "really hard to kill" isn't really a bug, since there's at least four frames that either do that as a deliberate design choice or are not hard to push into it. 

Inaros with all three Umbral mods, and at least one Rank 3 Arcane Grace can stand in the open in front of Profit Taker and just ignore almost all incoming damage, because the Arcane will trigger often enough and heal fast enough that he'll almost certainly regenerate faster than anything can harm him.  Nidus needs to build at least fifteen stacks of Mutation, and then cannot die as long as he can build it up faster than it gets lopped off as he triggers Undying.  There's even an Augment mod to make it much, much easier for him to build Mutation.  Wukong (currently) just flat out CAN NOT die as long as he has energy, and apparently Defy doesn't disable Rage.  Meaning all he has to do is toggle the power on and off once in a while to reset the increasing power cost of not dying.  Valkyr is also completely unkillable whenever she needs it, as long as she doesn't fling herself into a nullifier bubble.  Although since a Nullifier bubble also instantly negates Hysteria, she *also* doesn't seem to instantly die from the stored feedback damage the way she would if she ran out of energy standing next to any other enemies.

Hildryn having a "doesn't die" build isn't really gamebreaking.

[Methanoid]

On 2019-06-14 at 12:54 PM, viaxon6 said:

but 90% of a time, females are nukers or supporting while males are increasing damage and tanking.

time to bring out my male well known omega tank...... loki and my nuke female frame......  trinity.

[Cubewano]

3 hours ago, Methanoid said:

time to bring out my male well known omega tank...... loki and my nuke female frame......  trinity.

Almost like the op didn't say 100%

[Methanoid]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

Almost like the op didn't say 100%

well, regarding just the "Tank" frames, ash isnt a tank, nor is excal, frost (hard 1 to call as he himself does not get tankier), harrow, hydroid, limbo, nekros, oberon, vauban or volt, Mod X/Y/Z doesnt count as they are aftermarket addons, the frames themselves do not have any native ability to tank otherwise "with mods" nearly anything could be a tank/nuke frame.

As for nukers, i would say trinity, ember, hildryn, ivara, khora, octavia and titania do not count as raw nuke frames, given that and the above that 90% tag doesnt look very accurate.

[Cubewano]

24 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

well, regarding just the "Tank" frames, ash isnt a tank, nor is excal, frost (hard 1 to call as he himself does not get tankier), harrow, hydroid, limbo, nekros, oberon, vauban or volt, Mod X/Y/Z doesnt count as they are aftermarket addons, the frames themselves do not have any native ability to tank otherwise "with mods" nearly anything could be a tank/nuke frame.

As for nukers, i would say trinity, ember, hildryn, ivara, khora, octavia and titania do not count as raw nuke frames, given that and the above that 90% tag doesnt look very accurate.

That's what you should have said in the first place, thank you. 

(I agree with the air pull 90% metric is an over exaggeration as well but responding with smarmy quips not trying to actually provide a conversation piece is unneeded)

[Rakosta_Kai]

21 hours ago, KnightCole said:

We could see it as sexist, but why?  All this endless "equality" crap.  How bout playets n people get their political correctness out of our pixel shooters....save that crap for, well, save it for never since its all a load of crap anyway, but definitely dont put it in this game or any other.....

Some have and will continue to...The people that opt to do so have grounds (in their minds) for the complaint given that the roles aren't equally balanced.

That said, if you have opted to argue the merits of the point, you have fallen for the bait set by the OP imo. 

1 hour ago, Methanoid said:

well, regarding just the "Tank" frames, ash isnt a tank, nor is excal, frost (hard 1 to call as he himself does not get tankier), harrow, hydroid, limbo, nekros, oberon, vauban or volt, Mod X/Y/Z doesnt count as they are aftermarket addons, the frames themselves do not have any native ability to tank otherwise "with mods" nearly anything could be a tank/nuke frame.

As for nukers, i would say trinity, ember, hildryn, ivara, khora, octavia and titania do not count as raw nuke frames, given that and the above that 90% tag doesnt look very accurate.

I don't necessarily disagree with your stance... I would note that Frost's design intent was originally referred to as a ranged cc caster tank...As was Hydroid's.

Likewise, Applying your logic makes Saryn neither a nuke or a tank frame when we know she is actually both.

[Methanoid]

3 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Applying your logic makes Saryn neither a nuke or a tank frame when we know she is actually both.

Depends how you actually define a "tank", typically a tank is something that can mitigate or simply take more damage than usual straight to their faces, saryn cant do that, she can augment and "mod" to achieve some damage mitigation via quick thinking, trying to heal through damage via molt augment and damage avoidance via molt, but that isnt really her taking and mitigating raw damage to her face.

Like i said, if you include mods/augments then even loki can become "tanky" via his large energy pool and quick thinking, which imho does not feel like a valid tank.

[BETAOPTICS]

So Ash, Excalibur, Gara, Limbo, Loki, Nekros, Nyx, Revenant, Valkyr and Volt. All of these examples break this suggested mold in some format and these 33,5% are just the obvious ones, there are more who are debatable how they are viewed individually. If you are looking for something then yeah you can kind of sort-of half see it when you exclude all of the many exceptions to that rule but I think it is stretching. You get more accurate evaluations by abilities or thematic comparisons.

[Riger82]

On 2019-06-14 at 4:54 AM, viaxon6 said:

So i've just realised that almost every nuke frame is female and every 'tank' is male.

Nukers- Equinox, Mesa, Mag (kinda), Ember (before nerf), Gara, Banshee, Octavia (all females)

Tanks- Inaros, Chroma, Rhino, Nidus, Atlas

Also, a lot of females have defense supporting skills (Equinox, Trinity, Wisp), while males (Rhino, Harrow) have offense-supporting skills. Obviously there are few exceptions (Vauban is defensive, Hildryn is a tank), but 90% of a time, females are nukers or supporting while males are increasing damage and tanking.

 

 

Gara is also a horrendously powerful tank if you build her that way, along with being able to literally juggernaut run through things and kill them all.

Baruuk's support abilities (1, 2, and 3), are ALL defensive. And he's obviously male.

Volt is a wonderful nuke frame and is male. His two support abilities are both offensive and defensive.

Equinox does have defensive support, but also great offensive support. Ironically in the same skills when you switch to day form. It can both increase damage dealt to enemies with its 2, as well as power up all ally abilities through the 3 when you're in day mode.

Mesa's shatter shield can allow her to tank bullets just fine. And her shooting gallery is absolutely an offensive buff to weapon damage with the disarming being defensive but far less useful unless you're in melee.

 

I do see where you're coming from. But you're generalizing a bit too much. I'll agree that most nuke frames do seem to be female. But that's it. The rest of it just isn't true.

This crap is why DE had to change Equinox from being male in day form and female in night form to 'just female'. People got a bee in their bonnet about something stupid. Especially since Equinox is literally based on duality. Dark and light, yin and yang, male and female.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Riger82

[Qmiras]

On 2019-06-14 at 9:50 PM, 844448 said:

not for warframe at least, if you ever seen trinity tank

or nezha

Invulnerability Is not tanking, my friend...active/pasive damage reduction is...so maybe Trinity labels like that somehow but not nezha.

What makes rhino tanky in my opinion is not ironskin but his own high armor, same with nidus, Inaros, etc

[Viridias]

Imagine talking about tanks and nukers without any real consensus on what either term actually means

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

K

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 hours ago, Methanoid said:

Depends how you actually define a "tank"

That's a good question...

A predictable enmity/threat mechanic and enmity creation/management is what I would view as the litmus for a tank as it relates to the trinity.

This game has neither and uses armor, control, and mitigation as the litmus for what defines a "tank"

Saryn comes with higher average armor and a mitigation tool that only gets better with subsequent modding.

6 hours ago, Methanoid said:

saryn cant do that, she can augment and "mod" to achieve some damage mitigation via quick thinking, trying to heal through damage via molt augment and damage avoidance via molt, but that isnt really her taking and mitigating raw damage to her face.

Eh, Saryn can. Most players just don't mod her to bother with most of that though.

It's faster to wipe whole rooms than it is to keep them doubled over and dying while she stands there looking at them do so.

6 hours ago, Methanoid said:

Like i said, if you include mods/augments then even loki can become "tanky" via his large energy pool and quick thinking, which imho does not feel like a valid tank.

I do agree with your stance that mods can make almost any frame tanky though. Sadly, they can't make almost any frame a nuker too.

...The fact that they can't is the bait being dangled by threads like this one.

[844448]

7 hours ago, Qmiras said:

Invulnerability Is not tanking, my friend...active/pasive damage reduction is...so maybe Trinity labels like that somehow but not nezha.

What makes rhino tanky in my opinion is not ironskin but his own high armor, same with nidus, Inaros, etc

nezha doesn't have invulnerability anymore if you missed the rework

[KnightCole]

On 2019-06-16 at 6:31 AM, Padre_Akais said:

Some have and will continue to...The people that opt to do so have grounds (in their minds) for the complaint given that the roles aren't equally balanced.

That said, if you have opted to argue the merits of the point, you have fallen for the bait set by the OP imo.

Darn right, cuz if no one says anything back, then before we know it, even Warframe will be SJWFrame.......that kinda crap is getting really old really fast.  See it on youtube, yahoo, numerous game forums.  They can GTFO with that......

Edited June 17, 2019 by KnightCole