DE are confused about how they want the game to work, and DPS warframes that aren’t self buffers are taking the worst hit from this.

[(PSN)FK2P]

Warframe has very confused team synergy, i feel like DE don’t really know what they want to do so they just layer weird design choices upon each other, take the demolysts for instance, all ability’s don’t work... oh... except Loki’s switch teleport, and apparently Ivara can sleep arrow them BUT equinox can’t??? Seems very confused to me...

DPS roll warframes like banshee, ember, Mesa to SOME extent, saryn, equinox were great damage warframes back in the day, but now as more content requires more damage to be done against large non-mob threats, most of these frames don’t work at all, and what’s worse, most of these frames have no counter abilitys because when they were designed, damage was their strength, and their kit was designed as glass cannons. The current meta is basically buffing yourself, any damage abilities that applies itself to enemies doesn’t work when you need it most. I’m NOT ASKING for DPS frames to one shot boss type enemies, but I recognise that if DPS isn’t going to be a role that will be used in raids and that’s a design decision made by devs, can they NOT design warframes that are DPS warframes if they aren’t going to function. You cannot simply have a kit that kills mobs only, and completely ignores all the important bosses and enemies, it’s not good game design, it’s awful infact, they need to change some ability’s around.

it used to be about wether ability’s scales late game, but it’s now about wether the ability will actually proc on the specific enemy at all, or if DE decide that your frame just won’t work against X but will against Y. This needs to be sorted out before rail jack.

specific frames affected the worst are vauban who has flat CC, any enemy that’s immune to cc, he’s dead. Banshee, can’t put sonar on something, sorry, your dps frame no longer works, bring chroma. I think diversifying the ability’s is great.

Edited June 15, 2019 by (PS4)FK2P

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

The problem isn’t DE, it’s us. We’re all a jumble of voices who want different things and for a developer who uses player feedback it’s hard to decipher what ideas should be considered.

[(PSN)FK2P]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem isn’t DE, it’s us. We’re all a jumble of voices who want different things and for a developer who uses player feedback it’s hard to decipher what ideas should be considered.

Yeah, I think they should just prioritise making all warframes have roles like they had in LOR and make their ability’s WORK, like nyc could kind control vay hek! Nova could slow anything, BUT at least you knew where you stood with all the frames and you could design teams around it quickly, I had to test each and every frame and ability VS the demolysts because of the inconsistency...

[Wyrmius_Prime]

You are confused as to how to title topics.

[Madway7]

35 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem isn’t DE, it’s us. We’re all a jumble of voices who want different things and for a developer who uses player feedback it’s hard to decipher what ideas should be considered.

Actually it's both

 

They expected the game to fail and were (and still probably are) surprised by its success, so from them a developer standpoint they want to maintain that, but they never had any solid plans from the beginning, no clear vision, no real putting their foot down and taking massive risks (though biggest one was probably the vacuum within).

[(NSW)Lunavay]

40 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem isn’t DE, it’s us. We’re all a jumble of voices who want different things and for a developer who uses player feedback it’s hard to decipher what ideas should be considered.

I beg to differ. The point of feedback is getting perspectives. Then it's the job of people seeking feedback to sort out what to do based on their goal.

The OP makes a very compelling point about consistency, rather the lack of, in Warframes' skills. And make no mistake, consistency is not limiting variety but about the logic and rules which are created by the owner agreeing with one another. 

It's crucial in all forms of creative contents, be it games, world building in books or movies.

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem isn’t DE, it’s us. We’re all a jumble of voices who want different things and for a developer who uses player feedback it’s hard to decipher what ideas should be considered. 

To be fair even in our jumble of voices there are some consistent 'issues' that keep popping up...

Just off the top of my head the issue of non scaling abilities is a regular issue when you get a new frame that doesn't scale while the previous frame release/rework does have scaling abilities etc...    Just take ember rework versus saryn's rework.... ember doesn't scale, saryn does and you can see the difference straight away (if you ignore the elemental side of things) straight away at higher levels. 

Then we have situations where they just blanket ban ALL abilities or put a damage cap on the boss (hemocyte/lephantis etc) working on the enemies or even straight up stop us from using them the entire mission... which then essentially limits choice of frame etc.  Not all frames are there to just buff the damage, some are actually there for utility too.

IMO I'd say the biggest issue with warframe abilities is consistency of design decisions being made by DE which in turn then leads to frames being 'unsuitable' for a lot of uses.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

59 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

To be fair even in our jumble of voices there are some consistent 'issues' that keep popping up...

The problem is every time one of those issue is brought up by someone there’s about 5-10 other people deadset on telling them they’re wrong. It honestly baffles me when I see some of the things people will defend *cough*Revenant*cough*.

[(PSN)FK2P]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem is every time one of those issue is brought up by someone there’s about 5-10 other people deadset on telling them they’re wrong. It honestly baffles me when I see some of the things people will defend *cough*Revenant*cough*.

People defend ember and chroma hahaha some people just have no idea.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem isn’t DE, it’s us. We’re all a jumble of voices who want different things and for a developer who uses player feedback it’s hard to decipher what ideas should be considered.

That's every large playerbase ever.  When a developer can't or won't evaluate that feedback, incorporate the good stuff and discard the rest in accordance with a design goal and overall vision, they are very much the problem.

I'm not saying the job is anything less than excruciatingly difficult, but the responsibility for failures needs to be laid where it belongs.

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem is every time one of those issue is brought up by someone there’s about 5-10 other people deadset on telling them they’re wrong. It honestly baffles me when I see some of the things people will defend *cough*Revenant*cough*. 

Unfortunately there seems to be some people that like to be white knights for DE no matter how bad the things are that we're complaining over.... no idea why but there are.

[peterc3]

4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

That's every large playerbase ever.  When a developer can't or won't evaluate that feedback, incorporate the good stuff and discard the rest in accordance with a design goal and overall vision, they are very much the problem.

I'm not saying the job is anything less than excruciatingly difficult, but the responsibility for failures needs to be laid where it belongs.

What if the dev is evaluating that feedback and just doesn't agree with it? They incorporate the good things they find but ignore the vast majority of the flood of nonsense?

Why are the players experts on someone else's game?

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

10 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem isn’t DE, it’s us. We’re all a jumble of voices who want different things and for a developer who uses player feedback it’s hard to decipher what ideas should be considered.

Bingo.

Which is part of the reason I try to avoid big damage frames like the plague. 

[Xaxma]

It's not necessarily that DPS frames can't DPS, but the fact that tank frames utterly, unquestionably dominate the meta. 

The lack of sensible defense options for squishy frames is what has allowed for tank frames to become a staple in every team, on top of the ridiculous enemy scaling that steamrolls players at a certain point if you don't have 90% dmg reduction, Adaptation, and like 400+ Armor. 

Maybe if we had shield gating or some mods that add evasion, we wouldn't feel so helpless when we play squishy frames. 

[DatDarkOne]

10 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem isn’t DE, it’s us. We’re all a jumble of voices who want different things and for a developer who uses player feedback it’s hard to decipher what ideas should be considered.

^^^This all day long and twice on Sunday.  I've been saying this in the forums for about 2 maybe 3 years now.  

Now having said that, I'm just sitting back enjoying the antics on the forums.  Why? Because I'm mostly a solo player who mains Ivara and none of this is really effecting or bothering me much if at all.  😀 

[(PSN)chibitonka]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

^^^This all day long and twice on Sunday.  I've been saying this in the forums for about 2 maybe 3 years now.  

Now having said that, I'm just sitting back enjoying the antics on the forums.  Why? Because I'm mostly a solo player who mains Ivara and none of this is really effecting or bothering me much if at all.  😀 

Hopefully they don't mess with her when her prime is up.

[Xzorn]

I'd argue CC has gotten the worst of it.

CC frames have been under constant fire for years and without opposition they've slowly lost value even without DE actively murdering the role.

Debuff frames aren't in a great spot either with their recent immune frenzy but I imagine it's going to soon blow up in their face.

No one likes this cheese of effectively cheating their own rules. If the rules don't work rewrite the book. Every exception to a rule only turns out worse for the game as a whole. Rules like the Damage system are meant to be follow by both Enemies and Players. Consistency is key and it's something DE doesn't like following it seems. Take Revenant and Wisp 4th abilities not working on Nullifier Bubbles. Nothing in the game follows that logic. They just made an exception because they didn't like the result.

We need Damage 3.0. Enough of this cheap shortcut crap.

[DatDarkOne]

7 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

We need Damage 3.0. Enough of this cheap shortcut crap.

I'm all for it.  And I will also get drunk from all the salty tears that will be in the forums because it.  

[Xzorn]

8 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I'm all for it.  And I will also get drunk from all the salty tears that will be in the forums because it.  

 

Heh, if they do it well. They'll be able to nerf many things without player's really feeling the difference.

The end result of the game playing better and functioning properly is well worth it. Long ago they could have closed the eHP gap between frames, changed enemy damage scaling and then globally tuned down CC since it would no longer be so critical to survival. Instead they went a far more destructive path. Ah well.

[Xaxma]

15 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

We need Damage 3.0. Enough of this cheap shortcut crap.

What if warframe abilities utilized void type damage more often than the other types? Generic attacks without an elemental bias ought to simply be void type, then you wouldn't have to balance every frame around 10 different elements and focus mostly on the one. 

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

Heh, if they do it well. They'll be able to nerf many things without player's really feeling the difference.

I think this very thing might be what Steve has in mind within the next year.  Well if going by that interview he did with Mogamu is any indication.  

[Maka.Bones]

Yo.... Mesa, Ember, Banshee, Titania, saryn.... they're all self-buffers dude. 

Every single one of them have some buff that increases their damage, or attack/cast speed. So with that alone, your argument falls apart. 

 

The reason they're falling behind isn't because they don't have "self-buffs" it's because they lack more versatility, in how players use them. Players just see this one effective niche build, and only use the warframes in that specific way, instead of being creative and trying to play for the sake of fun. So when more diverse & versatile warframes come along that don't have one specific niche, the older DPS frames seem overshadowed, because players like you forgot they even had other uses/abilities/buffs. 

The issue older frames do have, is that they do lack more synergy, and diversity.... Or just plain out better numbers for their abilities *cough* (ember)

Edited June 16, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[(PSN)FK2P]

5 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

^^^This all day long and twice on Sunday.  I've been saying this in the forums for about 2 maybe 3 years now.  

Now having said that, I'm just sitting back enjoying the antics on the forums.  Why? Because I'm mostly a solo player who mains Ivara and none of this is really effecting or bothering me much if at all.  😀 

Ivara is one of the best designed frames in the game and if the devs ever touch her there would be an UPROAR.

[(PSN)FK2P]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yo.... Mesa, Ember, Banshee, Titania, saryn.... they're all self-buffers dude. 

Every single one of them have some buff that increases their damage, or attack/cast speed. So with that alone, your argument falls apart. 

 

The reason they're falling behind isn't because they don't have "self-buffs" it's because they lack more versatility, in how players use them. Players just see this one effective niche build, and only use the warframes in that specific way, instead of being creative and trying to play for the sake of fun. So when more diverse & versatile warframes come along that don't have one specific niche, the older DPS frames seem overshadowed, because players like you forgot they even had other uses/abilities/buffs. 

The issue older frames do have, is that they do lack more synergy, and diversity.... Or just plain out better numbers for their abilities *cough* (ember)

No your wrong. Embers accelerant only works VS mobs and it’s DISGRACEFULY weak. Banshee has no self buffs only CC which works against... you guessed it, mobs. I said MESA to some extent because disputes her buffs, she cannot use peacemakers where DPS really matters. You talk like you speak the truth when actually you have no idea what’s going on dude. These frames are supposed to be DPS frames, but it’s not fair how some DPS frames buff themesleves and can steamroll any content, and others are locked to only work against basic mobs. The point I am making is that if they want to make DPS, CC irrelevant, they need to decide wether to keep it or not and then make ALL abilities work in their intended roll throughout all content. Banshee needs to either paint targets on eidolons, or have a backup roll in this situation where people can take her into this content and have some use to a team. I don’t understand how trying to make DE make a final decision on ability rolls and how they want the game to function without just making the new stuff immune to entire frames kits is wrong? All I want is to be able to choose a roll and have it work. DE needs to set down its rules and apply them properly. It used to be that raids were more difficult, but ALL THE POWERS worked as intended. The squad had to think... will I take a nyx and risk not being the closest in range of Vay Hek, or will I take nova and slow him to reduce his aiming speed? Will I take trinity for energy? Will I take valkyr for revives? Will I take Loki to disarm all of the small mobs? Will I take vauban for one particular part of the raid where people have to not be knocked off of buttons and we need hard CC with good coverage, but he might not be as useful at the final stage of the raid... That’s when warframe was good IN MY OPINION. Choosing roles that functioned and planning a strategy. The raids need to be effected by abilities but they need to up the difficulty so we are forced to choose roles and use our entire kits to be successful.

[(PSN)FK2P]

3 hours ago, Xaxma said:

What if warframe abilities utilized void type damage more often than the other types? Generic attacks without an elemental bias ought to simply be void type, then you wouldn't have to balance every frame around 10 different elements and focus mostly on the one. 

That’s actually very very good. I like this idea. I also think abilities should do double the damage of weapons, since they use energy, otherwise there’s no reason to use a damage ability, just shoot a gun.